Why roshar should attack Scadrial soon and therefore they probably will

[+Bzhydack he/him]

6 minutes ago, Valigus said:

we have zero indication kaladin is an anomaly in this regard if he can maintain 30-40 squires so should others. 

But they dont. Hard numbers, bro, we know them from books. Heck, this is whole plotline in Rythm of War. 1 Knight, 3 squires. No more.

Kaladin IS anomaly. Have visions in the Storm. Can comand Windspren much more than normal Windrunner. Even Stormfather calls him differently.

24 minutes ago, Valigus said:

considering there is a whole civilization of honor spren I imagine their numbers are in the 10s of thousands at least meaning we could have with 10000 windrunners 200,000 squires.

Again, hard numbers. Even befor Recreance, numbers of Radiant spren are described as "Hundreds" not more.

19 minutes ago, Valigus said:

 

not really the seeker would have 0 clue what they are looking at, 0 clue what to do about it or anything just seeing a weird pulse doesn’t ensure the mission will be compromised.

And still has more reason to be suspicious than Skybreakers with Kandra. Foreign magic with unknown properties isnt just wierd, is highly suspicous.

25 minutes ago, Valigus said:

They would likely heal around the billet like shallan did the knife 

Now they dont. Aluminum has field effect.

26 minutes ago, Valigus said:

In terms of armor shardbearers are basically a tank and scadirans have yet to display any cannon big enough to take one out. A machine gun would not take a out a shardbearer before they took out the machine gun

50 BMG is able to pierce throu inch of hardened steel. Give me sling or hammer strong enough to damage this.

But sling or hammer is enough to damage Shardplate. Reach conclusion yourself.

30 minutes ago, Valigus said:

leaching isn’t instant the fact that they are similar to fabriel suppressors which do not work on 4th ideal radiants and work less on windrunners because they have access to a surge close to a specific god. 

And now i need to send you to "Bands of Mourning", train fight and what happened to Wax. Leecher cube simply burns out his reserves. It will make the same with Stormlight.

And now Im going to do very evil thing.

@BenduLuke This thread is for you.

[Valigus]

12 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

But they dont. Hard numbers, bro, we know them from books. Heck, this is whole plotline in Rythm of War. 1 Knight, 3 squires. No more.

Kaladin IS anomaly. Have visions in the Storm. Can comand Windspren much more than normal Windrunner. Even Stormfather calls him differently.

Again, hard numbers. Even befor Recreance, numbers of Radiant spren are described as "Hundreds" not more.

And still has more reason to be suspicious than Skybreakers with Kandra. Foreign magic with unknown properties isnt just wierd, is highly suspicous.

Now they dont. Aluminum has field effect.

50 BMG is able to pierce throu inch of hardened steel. Give me sling or hammer strong enough to damage this.

But sling or hammer is enough to damage Shardplate. Reach conclusion yourself.

And now i need to send you to "Bands of Mourning", train fight and what happened to Wax. Leecher cube simply burns out his reserves. It will make the same with Stormlight.

And now Im going to do very evil thing.

@BenduLuke This thread is for you.

No it’s not, where is this a plot line in the book or explicitly stated teft has all of bridge 17 as squires for example which is probably also 30+ people it seems more likely not all of them simply have squires and I am definitely sure this was not a plot line of the book more radiants was not more squires.

Generalizations are not hard numbers they killed a stadium bad have multiple cities, there isn’t anyone we know who wa even present then except the stormfather who has been very unreliable.

shardplate always cracks before breaking it won’t pierce on the first shot and chances are said person is flying or soemthing making them nighvhon impossible to hit

Scadrial has much lower investiture amounts it will take longer to drain a radiant then a metalborn. 

Edited January 29, 2021 by Valigus

[+Bzhydack he/him]

3 minutes ago, Valigus said:

No it’s not, where is this a plot line in the book or explicitly stated teft has all of bridge 17 as squires for example which is probably also 30+ people it seems more likely not all of them simply have squires and I am definitely sure this was not a plot line of the book more radiants was not more squires.

First, not all Bridge 4 was Kals Squires. Just few of them.

Second, Bridge 17 isnt Teft squires, has own Radiants. Teft doesnt have Squires anymore. As well as Kal.

Third, Hard numbers again. They have 200 Windrunners, 50 Knights and 150 Squires. And are not able to have more. This is fact. Not assumption.

8 minutes ago, Valigus said:

 

shardplate always cracks before breaking it won’t pierce on the first shot and chances are said person is flying or soemthing making them nighvhon impossible to hit

Come on, we have in our world shooters able to take down inch targets, or targets from more than mile afar, we are able to shot birds... All of this without magic or even advanced optics.

12 minutes ago, Valigus said:

Scadrial has much lower investiture amounts it will take longer to drain a radiant then a metalborn. 

Not that much longer. 1sec, or 2 maybe.

 

13 minutes ago, Valigus said:

Generalizations are not hard numbers they killed a stadium bad have multiple cities, there isn’t anyone we know who wa even present then except the stormfather who has been very unreliable.

But weve seen towns in Shadesmar. They dont have many spren.

[Valigus]

5 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

First, not all Bridge 4 was Kals Squires. Just few of them.

Second, Bridge 17 isnt Teft squires, has own Radiants. Teft doesnt have Squires anymore. As well as Kal.

Third, Hard numbers again. They have 200 Windrunners, 50 Knights and 150 Squires. And are not able to have more. This is fact. Not assumption.

Come on, we have in our world shooters able to take down inch targets, or targets from more than mile afar, we are able to shot birds... All of this without magic or even advanced optics.

Not that much longer. 1sec, or 2 maybe.

 

But weve seen towns in Shadesmar. They dont have many spren.

Every single member of bridge 4 except for 4 of them that’s 30+ people were his squires plus additional trainees. Plus stone wards and Lightweavers seem to both have about 3 squires so why would windrunners whose resonance is specifically more and better squires have the same amount.

i think it is far far more likely that simply not all of the windrunners have squires maybe a few have like 10 and a bunch like kal don’t also should be noted kal didn’t get squires til he got his blade so that could be it too.

I think it is far more likely to assume some just don’t have squires then assume only kal could have 30+

knights radiants are way way faster and tougher then birds, we also have more advanced ballistic technology.

we have seen towns the city had a n entire stadium that was full that’s hundreds right there, hundreds of dead wyes outside the city too. There are Leila thousands of honor spren

Edited January 29, 2021 by Valigus

[Proletariat]

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

The world is not any more divided then Scadrial but that is true however all the need is a few surgebinders to screw Scadrial ove rand grab some weapons in the chaos.

North Scadrial is on the brink of civil war and wax just made it worse. We have seen how easy it was for a kandra to destabilize everything, it’s naive to think that tension is gone forever a skilled lightweaver or Mavset-I’m or even better a team could easily destabilize the nation.

 

50 minutes ago, Valigus said:

It does not say that, even if it does dalinar would be able to provide enough stormlight and since some normal soulcasters can make it’s clearly possible.

mistings and ferrings are not common at all it’s been made pretty clear they are very rare.

not really the seeker would have 0 clue what they are looking at, 0 clue what to do about it or anything just seeing a weird pulse doesn’t ensure the mission will be compromised.

metalborn are stated and clearly are a rare occurrence there are normal

jobs for metalborn yes but there are also normal jobs for equally rare professions in real life just because jobs exist doesn’t make them common a soothing or rioting parlor needs like 2-3 people that’s not a lot even if we assume they are 5% of the population a super high ball estimate they are likely sub one percent that’s one million 250,000 of which are functionally useless and a single squire outclasses all of those, ferrings are substantially rarer. And even if they have 750,000 metalborn a squire outclasses any type of metalborn easily and considering there is a whole civilization of honor spren I imagine their numbers are in the 10s of thousands at least meaning we could have with 10000 windrunners 200,000 squires.

we have zero indication kaladin is an anomaly in this regard if he can maintain 30-40 squires so should others. 
 

In terms of armor shardbearers are basically a tank and scadirans have yet to display any cannon big enough to take one out. A machine gun would not take a out a shardbearer before they took out the machine gun

They would likely heal around the billet like shallan did the knife 

leaching isn’t instant the fact that they are similar to fabriel suppressors which do not work on 4th ideal radiants and work less on windrunners because they have access to a surge close to a specific god. I bet atium would be harder or impossible to drain by leeching.

I think there's a few assumptions that are worth unpacking here.

The most important thing is that an army invading in this era would have to do so from the Cognitive realm, and this creates a massive handicap for the invader. The weaknesses that you're identifying in Scadrial almost don't matter.

And secondly, I think there's a misdiagnosis of the populations involved. The spren are still recovering from near genocide in the Recreance, and this means there's never going to be a lot of surgebinders. Almost the entire population of Lasting Integrity fit into one building to watch Adolin's court case. And there are only nine or ten Cryptics who've bonded humans even though they're dedicated to the idea. Meanwhile the divisions mean that you can either have a force of Fused (and Skybreakers), or you can have a force with only 5 orders of Radiants in those small numbers of a couple of hundred at best. None of whom will be able to refuel. And this is assuming they can even figure out how to make it off planet which is something Kelsier, the Heralds, and the Fused all cannot do. 

Meanwhile Elendel has a population of up to 5 million, and is one of about 15 cities in the country including a city of koloss. If we assume that only 0.01% of them have either Allomancy or Feruchemy and only count people in the capital, then that's still 50,000 people with powers. And guns. And food supplies. And fortifications.

This isn't just a question of whether a Misting can beat a Radiant. It's a question as to whether this is a good time to invade, and it's really not. If you put a cost-benefit analysis to this situation, then it'd be the most costly endeavour for really unclear gain.

 

[Valigus]

16 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

 

I think there's a few assumptions that are worth unpacking here.

The most important thing is that an army invading in this era would have to do so from the Cognitive realm, and this creates a massive handicap for the invader. The weaknesses that you're identifying in Scadrial almost don't matter.

And secondly, I think there's a misdiagnosis of the populations involved. The spren are still recovering from near genocide in the Recreance, and this means there's never going to be a lot of surgebinders. Almost the entire population of Lasting Integrity fit into one building to watch Adolin's court case. And there are only nine or ten Cryptics who've bonded humans even though they're dedicated to the idea. Meanwhile the divisions mean that you can either have a force of Fused (and Skybreakers), or you can have a force with only 5 orders of Radiants in those small numbers of a couple of hundred at best. None of whom will be able to refuel. And this is assuming they can even figure out how to make it off planet which is something Kelsier, the Heralds, and the Fused all cannot do. 

Meanwhile Elendel has a population of up to 5 million, and is one of about 15 cities in the country including a city of koloss. If we assume that only 0.01% of them have either Allomancy or Feruchemy and only count people in the capital, then that's still 50,000 people with powers. And guns. And food supplies. And fortifications.

This isn't just a question of whether a Misting can beat a Radiant. It's a question as to whether this is a good time to invade, and it's really not. If you put a cost-benefit analysis to this situation, then it'd be the most costly endeavour for really unclear gain.

 

Assuming dalinar or a bondsmith is involved the perpendicularity should fix that, also people with transportation may also circumvent this. But that is only one city and that’s hundreds of spren at least there are not going to be as many radiants but still a good bit especially since they outclass metalborn. But also 1/4 of allomancers are useless for combat so that’s 37500 useful allomancers, on top of that fact that radiants could be armed with, suppressing Gabriel’s etc, one thing I notice is that in radiants vs metalborn people always assume that the metal born have all these tools like aluminum bullets and stuff but the radiants are going in with just their normal stuff, when that doesn’t make sense, especially when in terms of investiture roshar has very better technology to combat other magic users such as suppressing Gabriel’s, in rythm of war we see what is basically An energy shield, imagine a shardbearer with that and a suppressor woudl be insane especially now that navani understands how these Gabriel’s in the sibling were made. Additionally navani appears to be close to potentially figuring out a. Way to turn investiture into kinetic energy and Vice versa.

For a full scale invasion yes but for political destabilization or at the very least just go in rob a gun shop maybe kidnap ranette it’s definitely more of a benefit. Plus if the set is really with odium they are doing a great job.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Valigus

[+Bzhydack he/him]

15 minutes ago, Valigus said:

 

knights radiants are way way faster and tougher then birds, we also have more advanced ballistic technology.

Shoting birds was possible in 17th century

Im not sure they are faster. One Lashing is 6,86 m/s2 of acceleration. They are also much biger.

32 minutes ago, Valigus said:

i think it is far far more likely that simply not all of the windrunners have squires maybe a few have like 10 and a bunch like kal don’t also should be noted kal didn’t get squires til he got his blade so that could be it too.

Yeah, this is probably it - Windrunner need to reach 3th Oath to get Squires.

19 minutes ago, Valigus said:

on top of that fact that radiants could be armed with, suppressing Gabriel’s etc, one thing I notice is that in radiants vs metalborn people always assume that the metal born have all these tools like aluminum bullets and stuff but the radiants are going in with just their normal stuff, when that doesn’t make sense, especially when in terms of investiture roshar has very better technology to combat other magic users such as suppressing Gabriel’s, in rythm of war we see what is basically An energy shield, imagine a shardbearer with that and a suppressor woudl be insane especially now that navani understands how these Gabriel’s in the sibling were made. Additionally navani appears to be close to potentially figuring out a. Way to turn investiture into kinetic energy and Vice versa.

We also have only few examples of Sothern Scadrial Technology, and it has massive potential. Also, both sides have ways to cancel other side powers - but without Investiture Scadrial is on much better position than Roshar.

[Valigus]

7 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Shoting birds was possible in 17th century

Im not sure they are faster. One Lashing is 6,86 m/s2 of acceleration. They are also much biger.

Yeah, this is probably it - Windrunner need to reach 3th Oath to get Squires.

We also have only few examples of Sothern Scadrial Technology, and it has massive potential. Also, both sides have ways to cancel other side powers - but without Investiture Scadrial is on much better position than Roshar.

True, but still, the birds that get shot aren’t at super high altitudes and they can stack lashings a windrunner is basically a Fighter jet with enough light

But it’s also possible that Scadrial may not be able to cancel investiture in high ideal radiants and even if they can it may take time during which they will kill you. They aren’t if roshar just grabs some guns before hand which they can easily buy then they have better troops better generals etc they would have every advantage.

it seems to me that southern Scadrial has more advanced investiture based tech while north may be more technologically advanced, I’m counting them as separate things like I’d say in terms of investiture and investiture based tech roshar far outclasses northern Scadrial with fabrials southern Scadrial and roshar are about even but roshar may get the edge a bit cause fabriels are very useful.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

3 minutes ago, Valigus said:

True, but still, the birds that get shot aren’t at super high altitudes and they can stack lashings a windrunner is basically a Fighter jet with enough light

But still have limited range.

5 minutes ago, Valigus said:

 

But it’s also possible that Scadrial may not be able to cancel investiture in high ideal radiants and even if they can it may take time during which they will kill you. They aren’t if roshar just grabs some guns before hand which they can easily buy then they have better troops better generals etc they would have every advantage.

This is simply speculation, we cannot know this for now.And guns requires training and ammo. You cannot simply soulcast multicomponent ammunition.

 

[Valigus]

1 minute ago, Bzhydack said:

But still have limited range.

This is simply speculation, we cannot know this for now.And guns requires training and ammo. You cannot simply soulcast multicomponent ammunition.

 

For now yeah but spren shoudl in theory be able to become like canons and stuff, this seems likely from the way suppressing interacts with radiants, it is also only speculated that they would be able to drain them, both have basis in things we have seen which one will be the case only time will tell. 

that’s true but they should be able to soulcast everything else and they should be able to soulcast whole guns out of thin air. 
like you could soulcast the casting and billet then the powder and cap into that and so on.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

1 minute ago, Valigus said:

that’s true but they should be able to soulcast everything else and they should be able to soulcast whole guns out of thin air. 
like you could soulcast the casting and billet then the powder and cap into that and so on.

Not sure about soulcasting whole guns, they have too many moving parts with too many different properties. Much likely Soulcaster wuold make parts of gun and someone else would put it together. The same case with ammo.

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, Valigus said:

Sky breakers are lie detectors by their resonance

false, Venli lies to Nale and he believes her.

[Valigus]

28 minutes ago, Frustration said:

false, Venli lies to Nale and he believes her.

Huh I though that was it, I swear I’ve seen that somewhere before.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Valigus

[Valigus]

45 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Not sure about soulcasting whole guns, they have too many moving parts with too many different properties. Much likely Soulcaster wuold make parts of gun and someone else would put it together. The same case with ammo.

True but same effect in the end, I do bet they could soulcast a whole gun to aluminum though

[ScadrianTank he/him]

36 minutes ago, Valigus said:

that’s true but they should be able to soulcast everything else and they should be able to soulcast whole guns out of thin air. 
like you could soulcast the casting and billet then the powder and cap into that and so on.

I think @Bzhydack is right on this one. Every time we've seen a Soulcaster in action, they turn an object into a substance of their choice. One thing turns into a different thing. Creating complex mechanisms with many different parts made of distinct materials isn't something Soulcasting does. And it's not like it needs to, because once the cosmere starts to use advanced materials like carbon nanotubes, graphene, and superconductors - Rosharans would be able to create those with ease.

[Valigus]

6 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

I think @Bzhydack is right on this one. Every time we've seen a Soulcaster in action, they turn an object into a substance of their choice. One thing turns into a different thing. Creating complex mechanisms with many different parts made of distinct materials isn't something Soulcasting does. And it's not like it needs to, because once the cosmere starts to use advanced materials like carbon nanotubes, graphene, and superconductors - Rosharans would be able to create those with ease.

Fair enough though I think it may be possible like we make cast iron and stuff

[+Bzhydack he/him]

31 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

I think @Bzhydack is right on this one. Every time we've seen a Soulcaster in action, they turn an object into a substance of their choice. One thing turns into a different thing. Creating complex mechanisms with many different parts made of distinct materials isn't something Soulcasting does. And it's not like it needs to, because once the cosmere starts to use advanced materials like carbon nanotubes, graphene, and superconductors - Rosharans would be able to create those with ease.

But Roshar ist only place with Transformation Powers. Elantrians also have it. Is possible we will see magic economic race in addition to arms race.

37 minutes ago, Valigus said:

True but same effect in the end, I do bet they could soulcast a whole gun to aluminum though

Not exactly the same, because you still need additional men to assemble this. But yes, this is very, very strong.

[Proletariat]

6 hours ago, Valigus said:

Assuming dalinar or a bondsmith is involved the perpendicularity should fix that, also people with transportation may also circumvent this. But that is only one city and that’s hundreds of spren at least there are not going to be as many radiants but still a good bit especially since they outclass metalborn. But also 1/4 of allomancers are useless for combat so that’s 37500 useful allomancers, on top of that fact that radiants could be armed with, suppressing Gabriel’s etc, one thing I notice is that in radiants vs metalborn people always assume that the metal born have all these tools like aluminum bullets and stuff but the radiants are going in with just their normal stuff, when that doesn’t make sense, especially when in terms of investiture roshar has very better technology to combat other magic users such as suppressing Gabriel’s, in rythm of war we see what is basically An energy shield, imagine a shardbearer with that and a suppressor woudl be insane especially now that navani understands how these Gabriel’s in the sibling were made. Additionally navani appears to be close to potentially figuring out a. Way to turn investiture into kinetic energy and Vice versa.

For a full scale invasion yes but for political destabilization or at the very least just go in rob a gun shop maybe kidnap ranette it’s definitely more of a benefit. Plus if the set is really with odium they are doing a great job.

There is no reason to think that the Stormfather can come to Scadrial, and he definitely couldn't do it without disrupting life on Roshar since he literally is the highstorm. The Sibling can't move. Nightwatcher hasn't joined the cause of the Radiants. We have to suspend everything about bonds that makes the Rosharan system what it is to go with the assumption that Bondsmiths can join the battle.

And Lasting Integrity is only one city, but the Honorspren also tried to conquer the entirety of Shadesmar. They seem to be the largest population despite all fitting into one building. The cryptics are one of the other large populations and they only managed to create 9 or 10 lightweavers. Dalinar's forces even after the revelation are not going to be more than a couple of hundred Radiants across the 5 orders supporting him. Even if they could get to Scadrial.

There are some truly amazing Fabrials, but just because Navani has seen and understands them doesn't mean they are mass produced. There could literally be hundreds of thousands of guns, as compared to one scientist who has seen that a unique godspren can create certain effects. And again there's no indication that she has deciphered how they can be taken out of the system, and so it's questionable that they're a factor for this time period.

If we suspend these rules, then we also allow ourselves to make assumptions like the Set having access to heaps of Inquisitors with full feruchemy and allomancy because of their breeding program and hemalurgy. They technically understand how to do it - which is more than we can say for Rosharans knowing how to go off world - and have the materials to do so. And that Elendel has unlimited access to Southern Scadrian tech so that we have unlimited airships with bombs, hundreds of essentially fullborn Inquisitors, and rioters mind controlling a million kollos or whatever. But that'd be stretching the concept with a whole bunch of assumptions that we cannot yet justify for this scenario. 

This'll become an interesting scenario in the space age saga, but there's no planet where an invasion by one of the Rosharan factions wouldn't currently be a disaster. Invading Sel would be mass suicide in the Dor. Taldain is blocked off. Dusk's planet probably would result in a lot of normal soldiers being killed by cognitive predators, and then not even knowing what direction to go from the island. Nalthis has a legion of undead soldiers on hand to eliminate Roshar's mundane forces etc. Things still need to change a heck of a lot.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

8 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

There is no reason to think that the Stormfather can come to Scadrial, and he definitely couldn't do it without disrupting life on Roshar since he literally is the highstorm.

Stormfather only, but not the other two BS spren, might not need to go, though it's uncertain:

Quote

Questioner

Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time...

Brandon Sanderson

Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s Cognitive Shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

(This may have been brought up earlier and I didn't see it, not sure, there's a lot of messages.)

Edited January 29, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[Valigus]

32 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

There is no reason to think that the Stormfather can come to Scadrial, and he definitely couldn't do it without disrupting life on Roshar since he literally is the highstorm. The Sibling can't move. Nightwatcher hasn't joined the cause of the Radiants. We have to suspend everything about bonds that makes the Rosharan system what it is to go with the assumption that Bondsmiths can join the battle.

And Lasting Integrity is only one city, but the Honorspren also tried to conquer the entirety of Shadesmar. They seem to be the largest population despite all fitting into one building. The cryptics are one of the other large populations and they only managed to create 9 or 10 lightweavers. Dalinar's forces even after the revelation are not going to be more than a couple of hundred Radiants across the 5 orders supporting him. Even if they could get to Scadrial.

There are some truly amazing Fabrials, but just because Navani has seen and understands them doesn't mean they are mass produced. There could literally be hundreds of thousands of guns, as compared to one scientist who has seen that a unique godspren can create certain effects. And again there's no indication that she has deciphered how they can be taken out of the system, and so it's questionable that they're a factor for this time period.

If we suspend these rules, then we also allow ourselves to make assumptions like the Set having access to heaps of Inquisitors with full feruchemy and allomancy because of their breeding program and hemalurgy. They technically understand how to do it - which is more than we can say for Rosharans knowing how to go off world - and have the materials to do so. And that Elendel has unlimited access to Southern Scadrian tech so that we have unlimited airships with bombs, hundreds of essentially fullborn Inquisitors, and rioters mind controlling a million kollos or whatever. But that'd be stretching the concept with a whole bunch of assumptions that we cannot yet justify for this scenario. 

This'll become an interesting scenario in the space age saga, but there's no planet where an invasion by one of the Rosharan factions wouldn't currently be a disaster. Invading Sel would be mass suicide in the Dor. Taldain is blocked off. Dusk's planet probably would result in a lot of normal soldiers being killed by cognitive predators, and then not even knowing what direction to go from the island. Nalthis has a legion of undead soldiers on hand to eliminate Roshar's mundane forces etc. Things still need to change a heck of a lot.

But that’s not all of them there are multiple honorspren cities lasting intergrity is one city and we have no reason to belive th at all of the honorspren were there.

airships and bombs gonna lose to windrunners and sky breakers which are way faster and more maneuverable 

Mathis compared to roshar is suepr weak, the lifeless are nowhere near plentiful enough for them to make a difference. They have thinking ability rosharan will outclass them every battle.

in terms of military power natlhis is very very weak especially compared to roshar they have 0 technology advantage, the most powerful nation relays heavily on its lifeless which against rosharan troops don’t have much of an advantage in combat yes on campaign they can March forever but in combat and on campaigns superior generals will win the day especially since radiants and shardbearers will shred lifeless. Plus I doubt lifeless can match Alethi infantry.

Dusks planet is dangerous but an invasion would be easy those predators are dangerous to a lone man but against a squad of armed trained soldiers they won’t accomplish much especially if they just start burning their way through the islands add a shardbearer or two and it would be super easy. Now holding that territory super hard but if they just want to rip across the islands taking whatever super easy.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Valigus

[+Bzhydack he/him]

44 minutes ago, Valigus said:

But that’s not all of them there are multiple honorspren cities lasting intergrity is one city and we have no reason to belive th at all of the honorspren were there.

Lasting Integrity is their CAPITAL. And still have just maybe 200 spren. "Multiple cities" is just few small towns. I need to remaind you that from Recreance passed just a few generations of Spren and Honorspren started from 10.

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

airships and bombs gonna lose to windrunners and sky breakers which are way faster and more maneuverable 

With multiple machinegun turrets and coinshot escort? Dont think so. Mean, in long fight sure, they loose, but goal is to stop Windrunners and Skybreakers just long enough to allow airships drop the bombs. And Coinshots + machineguns are enough for this.

 

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

Mathis compared to roshar is suepr weak, the lifeless are nowhere near plentiful enough for them to make a difference. They have thinking ability rosharan will outclass them every battle.

in terms of military power natlhis is very very weak especially compared to roshar they have 0 technology advantage, the most powerful nation relays heavily on its lifeless which against rosharan troops don’t have much of an advantage in combat yes on campaign they can March forever but in combat and on campaigns superior generals will win the day especially since radiants and shardbearers will shred lifeless. Plus I doubt lifeless can match Alethi infantry.

Nalthis can masproduce Artificial Shardweapons.

[Valigus]

29 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Lasting Integrity is their CAPITAL. And still have just maybe 200 spren. "Multiple cities" is just few small towns. I need to remaind you that from Recreance passed just a few generations of Spren and Honorspren started from 10.

With multiple machinegun turrets and coinshot escort? Dont think so. Mean, in long fight sure, they loose, but goal is to stop Windrunners and Skybreakers just long enough to allow airships drop the bombs. And Coinshots + machineguns are enough for this.

 

Nalthis can masproduce Artificial Shardweapons.

I think they must have had more then 200, 400 at l at the there.

mavcome guns maybe would work on sky breakers but I think some Large armor shields and lashings could hold the guns off

Nalthis doesn’t  know how most likely on. A large scale, I doubt Vasher will share that knowledge and only 1 other seemingly know how.

[StanLemon]

I just want to make a point on Leeching. While it isn't instantaneous, it's close enough to not matter. It was practically instant in all the examples we've seen. Those cubes would be deadly to any flying Radiant as their Investiture wound be gone and they would plummet. 

[Proletariat]

4 hours ago, Valigus said:

But that’s not all of them there are multiple honorspren cities lasting intergrity is one city and we have no reason to belive th at all of the honorspren were there.

airships and bombs gonna lose to windrunners and sky breakers which are way faster and more maneuverable 

Mathis compared to roshar is suepr weak, the lifeless are nowhere near plentiful enough for them to make a difference. They have thinking ability rosharan will outclass them every battle.

in terms of military power natlhis is very very weak especially compared to roshar they have 0 technology advantage, the most powerful nation relays heavily on its lifeless which against rosharan troops don’t have much of an advantage in combat yes on campaign they can March forever but in combat and on campaigns superior generals will win the day especially since radiants and shardbearers will shred lifeless. Plus I doubt lifeless can match Alethi infantry.

Dusks planet is dangerous but an invasion would be easy those predators are dangerous to a lone man but against a squad of armed trained soldiers they won’t accomplish much especially if they just start burning their way through the islands add a shardbearer or two and it would be super easy. Now holding that territory super hard but if they just want to rip across the islands taking whatever super easy.

But they're not on equal footing. Even in standard combat the home team has an advantage in a siege or invasion, because the invading force has to organise resources and is exposed. In the case of having to organise armies to go across the cognitive realm - with food, water, and Stormlight that doesn't exist in there - and then swim in single file through a perpendicularity, the home team advantage is massive.

The key resource of the Alethi armies historically has been its access to Soulcasters so the army can eat and drink, and having more Shardbearers than their opponents. They've also recently gotten Radiants - who need Stormlight. However this invasion will have none of these unless they can figure out a way to perfectly store and transport Stormlight en masse in order to replenish their Radiants, shardplate, and Soulcasters, and they also need to figure out how to get spren off planet. Even Hoid has not discovered how to do that yet as per WOB even though he has either broken his bond or figured out how to do it by the time he next visits Scadrial, Kelsier has not figured that out as of the Wax and Wayne trilogy, and Raboniel believes it impossible despite being a scientific genius amongst Fused. 

What I'm trying to make clear is that it's not just a case of comparing powers. Nalthis has a customs system for cross-dimensional travel and would be aware of an invading force immediately, and they can mobilise an army that is difficult to wound and doesn't need any food or water to sustain them. Meanwhile on Dusk's planet you then have three weeks travel to get to your nearest destination even if you get even through the perpendicularity alright, but you have no idea of which way to go ... without titanic resources they'll just die on sea of dehydration and starvation. Roshar is more powerful than any other planet right now except maybe Sel, but it doesn't mean they can pull this off.

The argument isn't that Radiants aren't powerful. They are. If you put Allomancers and Radiants in Dragonball Z style thunderdome where everyone's powers worked perfectly, then Radiants would win. The actual argument is that now is not a good time for them to do something like invading a different planet since they're not in a position to resolve the logistics issues yet.

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

With multiple machinegun turrets and coinshot escort? Dont think so. Mean, in long fight sure, they loose, but goal is to stop Windrunners and Skybreakers just long enough to allow airships drop the bombs. And Coinshots + machineguns are enough for this.

Pretty hard to have a gun facing all directions, and they aren't manueverable enough to avoid them, all the Skybreaker has to do is find a place there isn't a weapon.

4 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Nalthis can masproduce Artificial Shardweapons.

at the permenant cost of at minimum 1,000 breath, with extremly confidential commands, possible yes, not likely for some time yet.