fullborn/radiant

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

52 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't think so. Yes, you could do it in stages, but that still wouldn't be enough.

There's probably a limit in how finely you can divide time intervals, otherwise you could make black holes even without Compounding (just store your weight for a second and then tap 10^30 times your weight for 10^-30 of a second).

Also, there is confirmed to be a diminishing returns aspect to tapping at high multipliers - if you store 50% weight or strength for 5 hours, you don't get 1 hour at 250%, but less time, since some of the stored attribute is used up to 'power' the multiplication.

That diminishing returns aspect might even be what prevents the super-high multiplier for super-short time thing as well... maybe there's a point at which the diminishing returns become so great you just can't tap at more than a certain rate (like, once you hit 1000x trying to go to higher rates uses up 100% of the extra energy...)

Yes, I was agreeing that this would be at the very least highly unlikely, not to mention impractical. I also have to point out that while there is diminishing return, we don't know if it is constant or proportional. I was also imagining a ridiculous amount iron to store, you  would have to devote yourself to it for years. It is also possible that your body will not let you tap so much, as it knows it would be destroyed(depending on how weight-storing works), similar things are in place regarding heat and health.

[cometaryorbit]

2 hours ago, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

I also have to point out that while there is diminishing return, we don't know if it is constant or proportional.

I am pretty sure the diminishing returns WoB says that it is a greater degree of loss the higher the tapping rate is... will have to look for that.

 

2 hours ago, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

I was also imagining a ridiculous amount iron to store, you  would have to devote yourself to it for years.

I think it's worse than that. Rashek, say, could walk around at half weight for 200 years and then multiply that stored weight by Compounding and storing, then Compounding those ironminds, etc....

But I think way before he got to planet breaking/black hole levels, he'd be stopped by not having enough iron to store in and eat. The multiplying via Compounding is going to stop working when he has to eat ironminds the size of ships... (actually, probably it will stop well before that point).

A planet or black hole just has *so ridiculously much mass*. Months of storage (maybe a couple years) make Wax heavier than a building for a moment... maybe hundreds of tons? But that's probably fairly near full for his regular sized ironminds. I doubt you could store a billion times that much in any reasonably sized metalmind, and a hundred billion tons isn't even close to this range.

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

You could probably achieve the mass of a small planet, like mercury. Also, you could split the metalminds, so you only had to eat small ones. If you are constantly flaring your metal, you can get a decent amount of weight, regardless of how much metal you had to consume. My point is, it should be possible in the same way that investiture is infinite, theoretically but not practically. It would be rather pointless as well, with like a 50/50 chance of destroying worlds.

[cometaryorbit]

12 minutes ago, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

You could probably achieve the mass of a small planet, like mercury. Also, you could split the metalminds, so you only had to eat small ones.

That's only like one order of magnitude less, whereas we're talking seventeen or eighteen orders of magnitude beyond what's demonstrated (Wax heavier than a building might be hundreds of tons - say, 10^5 to 10^6 kg - whereas Mercury is about 3x10^23 kg).

Splitting, sure... but we still might be talking about eating a pile of ironminds literally the size of a mountain, or more.

But maybe it would be theoretically possible... unless the diminishing returns eventually get to the point of serving as an effective upper limit (Like it asymptotically approaches a maximum, or something).

I feel like that *should* be true to keep an era 3 Compounder from unbalancing Harmony by storing into a supertanker, or something. (OK, maybe supertankers aren't Allomantically pure, but still...)

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

20 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Splitting, sure... but we still might be talking about eating a pile of ironminds literally the size of a mountain, or more.

But maybe it would be theoretically possible... unless the diminishing returns eventually get to the point of serving as an effective upper limit (Like it asymptotically approaches a maximum, or something).

this is essentially my point.

[cometaryorbit]

Ok. So then I guess the question is what is the highest power level a Fullborn can achieve in practice. Maybe what we see from the Bands? Supersonic speed with steel, but not orbital velocity or anything; gold to heal back from basically death; etc.

Though we see TLR use Feruchemical speed when he fights Vin and Marsh, and it's nothing like supersonic, though far faster than a flared pewter run. Maybe the Bands have a higher limit, or TLR just wasn't really trying.

[StanLemon]

2 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Though we see TLR use Feruchemical speed when he fights Vin and Marsh, and it's nothing like supersonic, though far faster than a flared pewter run. Maybe the Bands have a higher limit, or TLR just wasn't really trying.

I'd wager on TLR not even trying. I mean why bother go supersonic when a tiny fraction of your stored speed is plenty? Also, while the implication is that he was tapping speed, he might not have been. His basic Allomantic strength was a good greater than Vin's flaring strength. His speed from A-Pewter might very well been enough

[SwordNimiForPresident]

I'm not entirely sure that F-iron works by increasing or decreasing gravity/mass. It seems like it's more perception based. When you tap iron you're making everything around you treat you as though you had a much higher inertia, but you aren't actually increasing your mass. This is why you're still able to move under your own strength while tapping, and why punching someone while tapping doesn't crush them like a bug.

Therefore I think it would be highly unlikely that you could produce any gravitational anomaly, e.i. a black hole, by tapping iron.

[Brgst13]

I think a high level Bondsmith stands a good chance.  They could alter Connection to keep a Full-on from using their metalminds and then their Plate is a huge advantage.

[StanLemon]

1 minute ago, Brgst13 said:

I think a high level Bondsmith stands a good chance.  They could alter Connection to keep a Full-on from using their metalminds and then their Plate is a huge advantage.

People keep bringing up Bondsmiths from using their metalminds but that isn't exactly a workable strategy. First because Fullborn have some ability to manipulate their own Connection as well and may be able to counteract the Bondsmith, but more importantly, the Bondsmith would likely need to touch the Fullborn at least to do that and if they are that close...well the Fullborn just does a super fast super strong punch to the Bondsmith and burns Chromium and the fight is over

[Brgst13]

Just now, StanLemon said:

People keep bringing up Bondsmiths from using their metalminds but that isn't exactly a workable strategy. First because Fullborn have some ability to manipulate their own Connection as well and may be able to counteract the Bondsmith, but more importantly, the Bondsmith would likely need to touch the Fullborn at least to do that and if they are that close...well the Fullborn just does a super fast super strong punch to the Bondsmith and burns Chromium and the fight is over

Was Ishar touching Dalinar when he tried to take his Connection to the Stormfather?  I don't think that an unchained Bondsmith of the 5th oath would need to touch someone to manipulate that Connection.  

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

People keep bringing up Bondsmiths from using their metalminds but that isn't exactly a workable strategy. First because Fullborn have some ability to manipulate their own Connection as well and may be able to counteract the Bondsmith, but more importantly, the Bondsmith would likely need to touch the Fullborn at least to do that and if they are that close...well the Fullborn just does a super fast super strong punch to the Bondsmith and burns Chromium and the fight is over

Shardplate will absorb that blow

6 minutes ago, Brgst13 said:

Was Ishar touching Dalinar when he tried to take his Connection to the Stormfather?

Yes he did.

[StanLemon]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Shardplate will absorb that blow

Assuming Bondsmiths get Plate. But even assuming they do, that still would necessitate a Fullborn letting the Bondsmith even touch them. And while Plate might absorb one blow, it's not going to last against more than that. The raw physical power available to a Fullborn should be more than enough to punch a hole through Plate. The momentum of high speed, combined with the limitless Feruchemical strength and Fullborn levels of Alomantic Pewter I'd imagine would be like the force of a semitruck smacking a space the size of a couple of inches. For strength comparisons, Vin who's Allomantic Pewter doesn't even compare to a Fullborn's was able to cut through bone with a dull sword. A Fullborn's would be at least an order of magnitude stronger and then can beef that up with Feruchemy. And as I said before, there is no reason a Bondsmith would ever even be able to touch the Fullborn unless the Fullborn allows it. 

Edited April 1, 2022 by StanLemon

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

5 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Assuming Bondsmiths get Plate. But even assuming they do, that still would necessitate a Fullborn letting the Bondsmith even touch them. And while Plate might absorb one blow, it's not going to last against more than that. The raw physical power available to a Fullborn should be more than enough to punch a hole through Plate. The momentum of high speed, combined with the limitless Feruchemical strength and Fullborn levels of Alomantic Pewter I'd imagine would be like the force of a semitruck smacking a space the size of a couple of inches. For strength comparisons, Vin who's Allomantic Pewter doesn't even compare to a Fullborn's was able to cut through bone with a dull sword. A Fullborn's would be at least an order of magnitude stronger and then can beef that up with Feruchemy. And as I said before, there is no reason a Bondsmith would ever even be able to touch the Fullborn unless the Fullborn allows it. 

I have to note that doing that could break your hand, causing you to use up gold.

[Frustration]

8 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Assuming Bondsmiths get Plate. But even assuming they do, that still would necessitate a Fullborn letting the Bondsmith even touch them. And while Plate might absorb one blow, it's not going to last against more than that. The raw physical power available to a Fullborn should be more than enough to punch a hole through Plate. The momentum of high speed, combined with the limitless Feruchemical strength and Fullborn levels of Alomantic Pewter I'd imagine would be like the force of a semitruck smacking a space the size of a couple of inches. For strength comparisons, Vin who's Allomantic Pewter doesn't even compare to a Fullborn's was able to cut through bone with a dull sword. A Fullborn's would be at least an order of magnitude stronger and then can beef that up with Feruchemy. And as I said before, there is no reason a Bondsmith would ever even be able to touch the Fullborn unless the Fullborn allows it. 

I've done the calculations, and even without healing Dalinar holding up the chasmfiend in WoK required orders of magnitude more force than Vin smashing the dude's head in WoA.

Also a few things to point out.

1. Even with compounding feruchemy is not limitless there is an upper limit that will be reached, and by tapping feruchemical pewter you are increasing your size and making it harder for you to run and move as you get to the upper limits.
2. Fullborn are not inherently stronger with allomancy.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Frustration

[StanLemon]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I've done the calculations, and even without healing Dalinar holding up the chasmfiend in WoK required orders of magnitude more force than Vin smashing the dude's head in WoA.

The situation with the chasmfiend was clearly an exceptional event and should not be used as a baseline. There are far more scenes where considerably less force is used and Plate cracks

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Also a few things to point out.

1. Even with compounding feruchemy is not limitless there is an upper limit that will be reached, and by tapping feruchemical pewter you are increasing your size and making it harder for you to run and move as you get to the upper limits.

We don't know what those upper limits are, but Sazed never hit them even while holding city gates closed from a hoard of superhumanly strong Koloss

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

1. Fullborn are not inherently stronger with allomancy.

Maybe not initially, but WoB and implications from the Bands make it clear that it is entirely within their ability to gain that stronger Allomancy

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

The situation with the chasmfiend was clearly an exceptional event and should not be used as a baseline. There are far more scenes where considerably less force is used and Plate cracks

How do you propose that Dalinar made his armor stronger?

3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

We don't know what those upper limits are, but Sazed never hit them even while holding city gates closed from a hoard of superhumanly strong Koloss

Only a few they weren't all pushing on it. However that was not my point. My point was there is an upper limit, that can be reached.

5 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Maybe not initially, but WoB and implications from the Bands make it clear that it is entirely within their ability to gain that stronger Allomancy

Even with nicrosil that's only a temporary boost.

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

49 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

We don't know what those upper limits are, but Sazed never hit them even while holding city gates closed from a hoard of superhumanly strong Koloss

The practical limit is when you become so muscular that it impairs movement.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

3 hours ago, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

I have to note that doing that could break your hand, causing you to use up gold.

I think a bit of gold would be well worth the use if you can punch straight through a set of plate and pull out your enemies still beating heart.   

Vins duralumin empowered headbutt exploded the guys head and she didn't even have a headache thanks to pewter giving her so much durability.  A shard hammer weighs nothing and moves at the speed of a snail compared to a compounding fullborn.  His fist could move nearly the speed of sound.  According to Brandon it is possible to move so fast that you get burnt up from the friction of air on you.  With compounding gold showing us miles growing back his legs as he lands from jumping off a building... or repairing his face/brain as he gets shot multiple times a full born would absolutely shrug off any damage done to their body moving at or faster than sound while weighing more than a building.  And iron also protects the user from the increased weight.   Duralumin fueled pewter would also turn the compounders bones into nearly indestructible weapons anyway.  Give the compounder access to some brass knuckles to lower the space of impact further multiplying the potency of a super charged punch to a piece of shard plate....

Catastrophic for everyone who isn't the full born.  

The kinetic energy and momentum of something like that is just far too high for even plate to stop.  

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

27 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I think a bit of gold would be well worth the use if you can punch straight through a set of plate and pull out your enemies still beating heart.   

Vins duralumin empowered headbutt exploded the guys head and she didn't even have a headache thanks to pewter giving her so much durability.  A shard hammer weighs nothing and moves at the speed of a snail compared to a compounding fullborn.  His fist could move nearly the speed of sound.  According to Brandon it is possible to move so fast that you get burnt up from the friction of air on you.  With compounding gold showing us miles growing back his legs as he lands from jumping off a building... or repairing his face/brain as he gets shot multiple times a full born would absolutely shrug off any damage done to their body moving at or faster than sound while weighing more than a building.  And iron also protects the user from the increased weight.   Duralumin fueled pewter would also turn the compounders bones into nearly indestructible weapons anyway.  Give the compounder access to some brass knuckles to lower the space of impact further multiplying the potency of a super charged punch to a piece of shard plate....

Catastrophic for everyone who isn't the full born.  

The kinetic energy and momentum of something like that is just far too high for even plate to stop.  

You may even be able to cook a chicken by slapping it.

[Frustration]

51 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I think a bit of gold would be well worth the use if you can punch straight through a set of plate and pull out your enemies still beating heart.   

Vins duralumin empowered headbutt exploded the guys head and she didn't even have a headache thanks to pewter giving her so much durability.  A shard hammer weighs nothing and moves at the speed of a snail compared to a compounding fullborn.  His fist could move nearly the speed of sound.  According to Brandon it is possible to move so fast that you get burnt up from the friction of air on you.  With compounding gold showing us miles growing back his legs as he lands from jumping off a building... or repairing his face/brain as he gets shot multiple times a full born would absolutely shrug off any damage done to their body moving at or faster than sound while weighing more than a building.  And iron also protects the user from the increased weight.   Duralumin fueled pewter would also turn the compounders bones into nearly indestructible weapons anyway.  Give the compounder access to some brass knuckles to lower the space of impact further multiplying the potency of a super charged punch to a piece of shard plate....

Catastrophic for everyone who isn't the full born.  

The kinetic energy and momentum of something like that is just far too high for even plate to stop.  

Given that an African brush elephant weighs approxiamtly 13,000 pounds and is 13 feet tall 16 feet long and 6.5 feet wide.

And that a Chasmfiend is 20 feet wide 60 feet tall and 120 long(note these are from Rosharan measurements so it's probably even bigger) a Chasmfiend would weigh about 1,440,000 pounds. Now given its spren bond and Roshar's low gravity I'll cut that weight down but you'll see why it won't matter in just a second.

Now, a high end estimate for the force needed to break a skull is 1,200 pounds now Vin liquidated the guys head so let's give her ten times that amount at 12,000 pounds.

Even if the Chasmfiends bond along with Roshar's gravity cut it's weight down by 99% Dalinar holding the Chasmfiend up requires more force than Vin used breaking the guys head.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Frustration

[EmulatonStromenkiin]

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Given that an African brush elephant weighs approxiamtly 13,000 pounds and is 13 feet tall 16 feet long and 6.5 feet wide.

And that a Chasmfiend is 20 feet wide 60 feet tall and 120 long(note these are from Rosharan measurements so it's probably even bigger) a Chasmfiend would weigh about 1,440,000 pounds. Now given its spren bond and Roshar's low gravity I'll cut that weight down but you'll see why it won't matter in just a second.

Now, a high end estimate for the force needed to break a skull is 1,200 pounds now Vin liquidated the guys head so let's give her ten times that amount at 12,000 pounds.

Even if the Chasmfiends bond along with Roshar's gravity cut it's weight down by 99% Dalinar holding the Chasmfiend up requires more force than Vin used breaking the guys head.

We're forgetting the structural integrity of holding something, which is different from a direct and focused strike. you can squeeze an egg, and if you apply pressure evenly it will not break, but a small and direct strike will break it.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

We're forgetting the structural integrity of holding something, which is different from a direct and focused strike. you can squeeze an egg, and if you apply pressure evenly it will not break, but a small and direct strike will break it.

How is a direct strike to the head provide more force than a direct strike to the hand?

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

18 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Given that an African brush elephant weighs approxiamtly 13,000 pounds and is 13 feet tall 16 feet long and 6.5 feet wide.

And that a Chasmfiend is 20 feet wide 60 feet tall and 120 long(note these are from Rosharan measurements so it's probably even bigger) a Chasmfiend would weigh about 1,440,000 pounds. Now given its spren bond and Roshar's low gravity I'll cut that weight down but you'll see why it won't matter in just a second.

Now, a high end estimate for the force needed to break a skull is 1,200 pounds now Vin liquidated the guys head so let's give her ten times that amount at 12,000 pounds.

Even if the Chasmfiends bond along with Roshar's gravity cut it's weight down by 99% Dalinar holding the Chasmfiend up requires more force than Vin used breaking the guys head.

I assume something funky was going on with Dalinar in that moment as we see far more instances.  Plus as we see with the last clap holding a thing is different from outright resisting a thing.  

The strength in plate may allow for it catching and holding a chasmfiend briefly but if Dalinar hadn't caught it there is no doubt it would have punched right through the shard plate.  

If hammers swung by nonshardbearers can crack plate overtime why wouldn't a fullborn tapping iron and steel and a duralumin charged pewter hit cripple plate?  

Side question: 

If a pewter compounder stores allomantic strength could it not be compounded and tapped to give ludicrous strength minus the drawback of the growing mass typical of Feruchemical pewter?   If steelsight can be stored or bronze sensing can be stored why then would Allomantic pewter strength be the rulebreaker?

[StanLemon]

1 hour ago, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

The practical limit is when you become so muscular that it impairs movement.

Yes. But we don't know how much that actually is. We've seen impressive displays of strength without any description of having trouble moving 

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

How is a direct strike to the head provide more force than a direct strike to the hand?

Because catching allows for bracing for it and the force of the blow to be distributed through the whole Plate. Focus strikes don't generally allow for that