Voidbinding solved

[Frustration]

13 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Lift knows about Growth, I'm pretty sure she was using it before she tried using regrowth and she once asked Windle whether eating plants she grow would give her more or less light than it uses, his answer was "normally yes but with you everything is weird". She probably don't know all about Growth since she never tried to make herself more buff like the Altered Ones.

But I doubt she would tell anyone else, so whether Renarin knows about is in question.

13 minutes ago, mathiau said:

She was. Breaths a gaseous investiture not souls.

On the contrary Drabs have less inate investiture than normal people and are more susceptible to Soulstamps and the like, it is part of their souls, not all of it, but part.

[mathiau]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

But I doubt she would tell anyone else, so whether Renarin knows about is in question.

She's not the only Edgedancer, if she discovered Growth with just her first oath other will have to. But since we've not seen them use it I guess they're no more efficient than just the stormlight + music thing and we have no reason to say Renarin don't have it.

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On the contrary Drabs have less inate investiture than normal people and are more susceptible to Soulstamps and the like, it is part of their souls, not all of it, but part.

Innate investiture is not the same thing as Soul, and all Nathians have less innate investiture than normal people, it's just than most also have a lot of gaseous investiture on them. If a Breaths is a soul then Stormlight is also a made of soul and nicrosilminds contain souls.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, mathiau said:

Innate investiture is not the same thing as Soul, and all Nathians have less innate investiture than normal people, it's just than most also have a lot of gaseous investiture on them. If a Breaths is a soul then Stormlight is also a made of soul and nicrosilminds contain souls.

Souls are made of investiture

but either way if they are or aren't I don't see why Dakhor monks would die unless their souls were being consumed.

[mathiau]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Souls are made of investiture

but either way if they are or aren't I don't see why Dakhor monks would die unless their souls were being consumed.

Everything is made of investiture. They could have their mind or their bodies consumed instead, or all three.

Edited January 25, 2021 by mathiau

[Leuthie]

56 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Souls are made of investiture

but either way if they are or aren't I don't see why Dakhor monks would die unless their souls were being consumed.

 

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Tsidqiyah

On Sel. It costs about 50 sacrifices to become immune to Aons. Is that number essential? Or if someone with 50 Breath was sacrificed...?

Brandon Sanderson

That number is not essential. But you would have to hack the magic system. You need that much Investiture. So, 50 peoples' souls worth. But if you knew how to hack the magic, Breath could substitute there pretty easily.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

 

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Questioner

Can someone be sacrificed for both Hemalurgy and the magics of Dakhor simultaneously?

Brandon Sanderson

So this is going to require the soul being ripped apart, so it depends on what pieces of the soul are left and how easily you can capture them. That's a theoretical possible-- possibility... Know that most of the horrors of Dakhor are twisting a soul not stealing a soul.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

 

Dakhor sacrifice twists a soul to attract Dor, and uses the Dor to do whatever its trying to do. It doesn't consume the soul as Investiture. The twisting of the soul probably results in death. If the Fjorden's weren't so willing to sacrifice themselves and others, they could probably find a way to attract the Dor without killing people.

Dor is gaining sapience and "likes" certain actions. In Fjorden, it likes the twisting of souls and bones. In Arelon it likes Aons that match the landscape (among other things). This isn't a net negative magic system, it's the result of a Shard with no Vessel and people trying to get it to do things. Once you have its attention, you can do net-positive things. Getting attention is the hard part.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

4 hours ago, mathiau said:

Tumi apear as a blue cristal soldier

That's not what Tumi looks like, that's his futuresight showing Kaladin in Plate.

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Then it shone as crystals grew out from his feet like … like stained glass windows, covering the floor. They showed a figure rising in blue-glowing Shardplate, and a tower coming alight.

 

[mathiau]

1 minute ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

That's not what Tumi looks like, that's his futuresight showing Kaladin in Plate.

Oh.

I still think Tumi will be at least slightly different than Glys, right before Jasnah decide not to kill Renarin, Glys asked him to "take his pain" which implies he hurt, a lot. Sja-anat see enlightened sprens as her children so it's unlikely she'll make other that live in pain; not to mention it not doing so would make convincing mistsprens much harder.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

43 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Oh.

I still think Tumi will be at least slightly different than Glys, right before Jasnah decide not to kill Renarin, Glys asked him to "take his pain" which implies he hurt, a lot. Sja-anat see enlightened sprens as her children so it's unlikely she'll make other that live in pain; not to mention it not doing so would make convincing mistsprens much harder.

When does he say that? The closest I remember is this:

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He will not be resisted, Glys said. My sorrow, Renarin. I will give you my sorrow.

However, my memory is terrible, so it's not surprising if I missed it. 

[mathiau]

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

When does he say that? The closest I remember is this:

However, my memory is terrible, so it's not surprising if I missed it. 

This time it's mine which was terrible, it was sorrow and not pain. My point still stand though.

Also, I can't find a WoB asking Brandon if Glys was a mistspren, Glys was self-aware before his enlightenment so he probably is but his appearance seems more different from a regular mistsprens than other enlightenmented spren from their original so it could be worth asking.

[Honorless]

13 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Ishar didn't define the Oaths, but he did impose their requirement upon the process. The process is a creation of Ishar (requiring the 5 Ideals/Oaths to get more power), the Oaths themselves are determined by the spren (and accepted by Shards, Stormfather stepping in for Honor).

@Leuthie, sorry to bother you again but is there a confirmation for what you just said here from Brandon?

I do agree that the Oaths progression seems like a consciously imposed restriction & selection process, I once created a topic arguing that, and RoW info on Bondsmiths seem to be, imo, supporting the idea that Bondsmiths created the Orders of the Knights Radiant out of Surgebinders, but is there any evidence of what/how much exactly Ishar did?

[Frustration]

Going back through my notes to find anything I missed

So in Surgebinding the orders  learn their  surges in clockwise order

Spoiler

Overlord Jebus

So I've noticed a pattern in the way that the Radiants learn their surges. They seem to learn their anti-clockwise surge before their clockwise surge?

Brandon Sanderson

They do.

Overlord Jebus

Excellent, everyone thought I was a crazy person!

Brandon Sanderson

They do tend to-- Now, I'm gonna give you some behind the sausage stuff on that. That is partially for writing expediency reasons.

Overlord Jebus

How do you mean?

Brandon Sanderson

I designed that partially because I didn't want to overwhelm people with too many magic systems at once so I came up with a little bit of a pattern so that I could have a little bit of an in-world reason why we were slowing that down. It's not a hard fast rule, it's something that I've kept to in order to not overwhelm readers so it's more of form following function than the other way around.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

I think given that Renarin has the counter clockwise Void that Voidbinders learn theirs in counter-clockwise order.

 

[mathiau]

18 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Going back through my notes to find anything I missed

So in Surgebinding the orders  learn their  surges in clockwise order

  Reveal hidden contents

Overlord Jebus

So I've noticed a pattern in the way that the Radiants learn their surges. They seem to learn their anti-clockwise surge before their clockwise surge?

Brandon Sanderson

They do.

Overlord Jebus

Excellent, everyone thought I was a crazy person!

Brandon Sanderson

They do tend to-- Now, I'm gonna give you some behind the sausage stuff on that. That is partially for writing expediency reasons.

Overlord Jebus

How do you mean?

Brandon Sanderson

I designed that partially because I didn't want to overwhelm people with too many magic systems at once so I came up with a little bit of a pattern so that I could have a little bit of an in-world reason why we were slowing that down. It's not a hard fast rule, it's something that I've kept to in order to not overwhelm readers so it's more of form following function than the other way around.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

I think given that Renarin has the counter clockwise Void that Voidbinders learn theirs in counter-clockwise order.

 

The counter-clockwise Void/Surge of Truthwatchers is Progression so that seems to to contradict what you said earlier (Truthwatchers are on the bottom of the chart so the counter-clockwise one is on the right).

My interpretation of Renarin's vision is it's his Resonance, it's too different from both his Progression and Illumination to be anything else. It wouldn't be the first time it happen, Kaladin's ease with the spear is implied to be part of his resonance and the first lashing he ever used was the reverse lashing which was stated to be a mix of his two surges.

So I would say Renarnin did Resonance->V-Progression->V-Illumination, counter-clockwise first. It's also possible he did Resonance->S-Progression->V-Illumination, counter-clockwise Surge, if it's the case he'll probably get V-Progression and S-Illumination at some point which would mean it's indeed clockwise first for the Voids.

[Frustration]

41 minutes ago, mathiau said:

The counter-clockwise Void/Surge of Truthwatchers is Progression so that seems to to contradict what you said earlier (Truthwatchers are on the bottom of the chart so the counter-clockwise one is on the right).

Clockwise is the same direction, no matter where you are.

41 minutes ago, mathiau said:

My interpretation of Renarin's vision is it's his Resonance, it's too different from both his Progression and Illumination to be anything else. It wouldn't be the first time it happen, Kaladin's ease with the spear is implied to be part of his resonance and the first lashing he ever used was the reverse lashing which was stated to be a mix of his two surges.

This would indicate otherwise

Spoiler

Argent

Let's talk about Renarin, and Voidbinding. So, with that page we talked about, Renarin Voidbinds. I asked about visions, you pointed to Voidbinding chart, he Voidbinds. Is that using Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen?  

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. 

Argent

Is that what voidbinding is? 

Brandon Sanderson

No, but close. You're on the right track. We are gonna get into that, I'm not gonna tell you what the chart means, and things like that. But yeah, something really weird is happening there. 

Footnote: The chart referenced is the back endsheet in The Way of Kings.
Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

But also Kadash says that Voidbinding is about seeing the future, one of only two times in book that it's mentioned.

Edited January 26, 2021 by Frustration

[LordFlea]

On 1/22/2021 at 6:41 AM, Bzhydack said:

Its very posssible, even plausible, than Odiums magic is End-Negative. Hatred is basicly destrucrive, not constructive.

Need to note that indeed, known Unmade require sacrifice.

- Yelig-Nar consumes his host

- Moelach gives glimpses of future while person is dying

- Nergaoul gives passion to fight until death

- Ashertmarn gives passion to feast until death

- Re-Sephir simply murders people to study them

Only Sia-Anat doesnt kill anyone, but this is now, she changes spren, maybe earlier she simply hurt them more directly, so this is also some sacrifice.

Also Fused share similarities to hemalurgy.

Spiked poeple uses exactlythe same powers as born Allomancers and Feruchemists. But They are not using Allomancy/Feruchemy but Hemalurgy. And first they need kill someone with spike to gain powers. Similary Fused - they use normal surges, but to gain them (and physical body), they need sacrifice Singer.

So Fused ar Voidbinders not because they use some other Voidsurges, but because they are using Voidbinding to be back.

Moash/Vyre sacrificing his emotions

El had his Rythyms taken away

I forget their title, but the nine trapped in stalagmites, sacrificing their autonomy.

 

I think you are on to something with this. Also striking me is how adverse this all is to Life before Death.

[mathiau]

34 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Clockwise is the same direction, no matter where you are.

The surge clockwise from Boundsmiths is Adhesion, it's on their right. The surge clockwise from Truthwatchers is Illumination, it's on their left.

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This would indicate otherwise

  Reveal hidden contents

Argent

Let's talk about Renarin, and Voidbinding. So, with that page we talked about, Renarin Voidbinds. I asked about visions, you pointed to Voidbinding chart, he Voidbinds. Is that using Stormlight to power abilities different from the Surgebindings we've seen?  

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. 

Argent

Is that what voidbinding is? 

Brandon Sanderson

No, but close. You're on the right track. We are gonna get into that, I'm not gonna tell you what the chart means, and things like that. But yeah, something really weird is happening there. 

Footnote: The chart referenced is the back endsheet in The Way of Kings.
Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

If we assume he's using S-Regrowth yes, not if we assume boths are voids, because in that case the Resonance would be Voidbinding too

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But also Kadash says that Voidbinding is about seeing the future, one of only two times in book that it's mentioned.

That contradict your assertion in the OP that Future-sight is a confirmed Void. If we trust Kadash of course.

Also, flahsblack to earlier

On 25/01/2021 at 7:37 PM, mathiau said:

we've seen Renarin's power have malatium effects twice, when he used illumination on Moash at the begining of RoW but also when he healed Adolin's wrist at the begining of Oathbringer (the same scene he's shown to have made a blade) and I think we can agree there's no reason he'd be accidently using Illumination at that moment. Of course there's still the possiblity that future sight is an effect of Progression and his Malatium-light effect on Moash was actually a fusion V-Illumination and V-Progression

Malatium was not a very good word to describe what actually happened (a perfected version of themself was visible) but it's still a temporal effect.

12 minutes ago, LordFlea said:

El had his Rythyms taken away

As a punishment

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I forget their title, but the nine trapped in stalagmites, sacrificing their autonomy.

I think it was "The Nine"

14 minutes ago, LordFlea said:

I think you are on to something with this. Also striking me is how adverse this all is to Life before Death.

The inverse of Life before Death? You mean something like:

Quote

             “The death is my life, the strength becomes my weakness, the journey has ended.”

—Dated Betabanes, 1173, 95 seconds pre-death. Subject: a scholar of some minor renown. Sample collected secondhand. Considered questionable.

 

@Bzhydack does indeed seems to be on to something.

And we have that one

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"Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Dai-gonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it!"

And what did Glys ask Renarin to do? "Take my sorrow"

[LordFlea]

1 minute ago, mathiau said:

With the El thing I was just meaning that there is a pattern of sacrifice to Odium for Status (The Nine) Power (Moash) and Redress/Punishment (El).

 

 

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, mathiau said:

The surge clockwise from Boundsmiths is Adhesion, it's on their right. The surge clockwise from Truthwatchers is Illumination, it's on their left.

If you have a clock and lay the chart behind it, whichever surge the hand would hit first is the surge the order gets first.

8 minutes ago, mathiau said:

That contradict your assertion in the OP that Future-sight is a confirmed Void. If we trust Kadash of course.

How?

[mathiau]

7 minutes ago, LordFlea said:

With the El thing I was just meaning that there is a pattern of sacrifice to Odium for Status (The Nine) Power (Moash) and Redress/Punishment (El).

Oh, yeah that makes sense.

Also El sacrificing his carapace for power is probably not something recent (and since he was Vyre he had probably sacrificed his emotion too). And the Fused sacrifice their sanity to in exchange for immortality (and probably sacrificed their original bodies).

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

How?

If everything in Voidbinding is about seeing the future, then it's no longer a Void it's a side effect of every Voids

Edited January 26, 2021 by mathiau

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, mathiau said:

If everything in Voidbinding is about seeing the future, then it's no longer a Void it's a side effect of every Voids

Voidbinding has never been fully explored in the past so no, it's just the one that has seen the most use.

[mathiau]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Voidbinding has never been fully explored in the past so no, it's just the one that has seen the most use.

Then what's the problem with assuming one of Renarin's Void and his Resonance (eg. the fusion of his two Voids) give future sight?

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Then what's the problem with assuming one of Renarin's Void and his Resonance (eg. the fusion of his two Voids) give future sight?

Because all other resonances kind of suck.

Let's be real they are really pathetic compared to real powers, so why should one be one of the most powerful abilities we know of?

[mathiau]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Because all other resonances kind of suck.

Let's be real they are really pathetic compared to real powers, so why should one be one of the most powerful abilities we know of?

We know the resonances of only three other orders

Windrunners: reverse lashing, extremes number of squires

Boundsmiths: Light creation, ability to boost radiants from other orders and ability to open rusting Perpendicularities

Lightweavers: Literal photographic memory. Why is so lame compared to the others it's impossible it all of it.

Yes, random inpressise prophecies+aura of impressibility is insane compared to the Lightweaver's one and is stronger than the Windrunner one but it's not an insane difference. Also the voidbinding chart places V-Truthwatchers at equality with V-Boundsmiths and their symbol is literally a miniature of the full chart so I'm not surprised they've got an above average Resonance.

[Frustration]

19 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Boundsmiths: Light creation, ability to boost radiants from other orders and ability to open rusting Perpendicularities

Perpendicularly is for the Stormfather exclusively

[mathiau]

Just now, Frustration said:

Perpendicularly is for the Stormfather exclusively

And for Ishi. And Navani is still at her first oath

Edited January 27, 2021 by mathiau

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, mathiau said:

And for Ishi. And Navani is still at her first oath

A. Ishar

B. Who are they both connected to?

Honor

Whose perpendicularly is it?

Honors

And both times it has happened it has been said to not have been possible before.

So only those two.

Also Ishar isn't technically a Bondsmith but might as well be.