True Surges and Intent [Discuss]

[Kyn]

Why (and how) are certain abilities, such as Surges, considered more True to a particular Shard? Why are some either unable to be used by certain Shards, or avoided by them? What textual support is there for and against the views presented in-world that these are closer to a Shard’s Intent? 

Sorry, I inadvertently hijacked a really interesting thread over at The Fused before being Fused and am bringing the discussion here to stop distracting from that one, but permit further discussion if anybody else is interested.

The discussion that ended up derailing started here. In it, I was arguing that the way Adhesion and Progression still worked when the Radiants were knocked out at Urithiru could likely be attributed to these being what is called in-world “True Surges” of Honor and Cultivation. These abilities were so close to these Shards’ Intents, or alien to Odium’s Intent, that Odium couldn’t suppress them. Presumably, Honor’s Adhesion was even farther from Odium’s Intent, and couldn’t be mimicked in Odium’s Fused, either.

Other thoughts?

My next reply in that conversation, to this post, would have been along the lines of:

Spoiler

“The effects of a magic system are not limited by a Shard's Intent” is not logically equivalent to “the energy of Shards can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role.” WoB does not say each Shard can fuel every interaction, with no Intent-based limitations; only that the Shards are not limited to interactions explicitly based on their Intent.

The effects of a magic system may not be limited to only those things within a Shard’s demesne, but are clearly limited by a Shard’s Intent if there are effects specific magic systems do not interact with, whether to fuel, endow, or suppress. I did not say cannot, although this is likely. However, a Shard choosing not to do certain things because they are too contrary to a Shard’s nature is identical in effect to it being incapable of doing them for the same reason.

@LewsTherinTelescope said:

Quote

However, I feel there is a perfectly adequate alternative explanation that fits better with what we have been told about the way magics work.

Please share.

I said it appears the Shards are limited to interactions that are not sufficiently contrary to their Intent. This is obviously only a potential explanation based on in-world beliefs and the confirmed lack of certain Shards endowing/inhibiting particular abilities, but so far you have not presented your explanation and evidence. If you believe there are no limitations upon Shardic magic despite what the books show, or that the limitations are unrelated to Shardic Intent, I would love to know why.

[Clovermite]

I don't really think it's a thing. I think it's a myth that the Fused bought into so Odium wouldn't have to explain why he doesn't want to give them access to the adhesion surge. In allomancy, we see a lot of powers that are very un-preservation. It seems to me that the shard's intent tends to determine HOW someone can access its investiture to fuel abilities, not WHAT the ability they can fuel with the shard's investiture.

I think there is an old WoB saying something along those lines, but I had trouble searching it down.

Edited January 17, 2021 by Clovermite

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, Kyn said:

“The effects of a magic system are not limited by a Shard's Intent” is not logically equivalent to “the energy of Shards can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role.” 

I think the context of the question that this was in response to, which was asking why it can fuel things directly contrary to its Intent, is relevant, and explains more why I think the WoB says what it does.

1 hour ago, Kyn said:

The effects of a magic system may not be limited to only those things within a Shard’s demesne, but are clearly limited by a Shard’s Intent if there are effects specific magic systems do not interact with, whether to fuel, endow, or suppress.

Depending on how the Fused got their powers, I don't see this as particularly suspicious. The fact there was no Bondsmith prior to the end of Words of Radiance does not mean Bondsmiths can no longer be made. The fact Odium has not made a specific type of Fused does not to me indicate there is anything (especially not anything with their Intents) preventing him from doing so.

1 hour ago, Kyn said:

Please share.

I explained my view in an earlier post of mine, but there's a lot of posts in that thread, so I'll repost it here:

Quote

Instead, I think that Odium was scared of the potential a Fused with power over Connection could have (for example, could they maybe break their dependence on him and Connect to a different source of power?), and so he pretended he couldn't do it, using its association with Honor as an excuse. And the Fused, not knowing the deep mechanics of how this works, bought it, and bonus points, it made them even saltier towards Honor than they were before!

[ScadrianTank he/him]

The simplest explanation that comes to my mind is that Honor simply prohibited Odium from granting Adhesion to his minions. Possibly, as another measure to prevent another Ashyn.

We see at the end of the RoW that Odium can corrupt Kaladin, and he is still able to use Adhesion. Odium says that if Dalinar became a Fused, he would still be bound by his Oaths, so it seems like Odium can make him something like a Bondsmith. However, my speculation Dalinar might be completely off if Rayse just wanted him to be the Blackthorn, but Bondsmith Oaths don't really allow that, so I'm not sure about that one.

On 17.01.2021 at 9:30 PM, Kyn said:

Why (and how) are certain abilities, such as Surges, considered more True to a particular Shard? Why are some either unable to be used by certain Shards, or avoided by them? What textual support is there for and against the views presented in-world that these are closer to a Shard’s Intent?

As the people above mentioned, Shards don't choose their magic system. That doesn't mean that Odium can't use what people in the world see as Adhesion. We see him Connecting to people and making deals like a Bondsmith. Because Shards have an understanding of the cosmere on a fundamental level and can manipulate everything on that level, saying that Shards can't do something seems wrong.

Edited January 20, 2021 by ScadrianTank
Fixed a sentance.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

7 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

The simplest explanation that comes to my mind is that Honor simply prohibited Odium from granting Adhesion to his minions. Possibly, as another measure to prevent another Ashyn.

Raising the point for which reason exactly Odium would obey Honor. Or why actually if Honor enjoyed such an authority over Odium why he diod not forbid Odium to kill him.

[Leuthie]

I don't believe adhesion is a fundamental force in the Physical Realm, which is what surges are supposed to be. Gravitation covers most of what adhesion can do (as evidenced by the common names of the abilities: full lashing, basic lashing and reverse lashing). Adhesion doesn't do anything Physical; it creates new Connections (or alters existing ones), which is fundamentally Spiritual.

Granted, all changes created by surges are Spiritual. Everything exists in all three Realms, so there is a Spiritual element to everything. However, other surges modify existing Physical phenomena by temporarily changing Physical, Cognitive and/or Spiritual characteristics. Adhesion just messes with the Spiritual Connections with no real tie to Physical phenomena.

Full Lashings (Physical adhesion) use Stormlight to bind things together Physically so strong that the objects themselves would break apart before the bond failed. This is creating a Spiritual Connection that defines the two objects as one until the Stormlight runs out. There is no Physical phenomena that permanently binds two disparate things together with a stronger bond than the internal bonds that hold the objects together in the first place.  This is purely a Spiritual Connection created between the two objects. Spiritual adhesion is even more direct manipulation of Connection, allowing direct visualization and manipulation of Connections. The "surge" itself is probably Honor sharing the Shard's abilities with those who swear Oaths.

Also, adhesion is granted to those who have Bonds with spren that were made by Honor or creations of Honor, rather than "naturally" occurring spren. It's debatable that any spren, lesser or greater, were or were not created by any particular Shard. We know that all existing honorspren were "birthed" by Stormfather at the behest of Honor (prior generations of honorspren were created by Honor itself). The Sibling was a direct creation of Cultivation and Honor in an attempt to bind together singer and human. The Nightwatcher is being groomed by Cultivation, hinting at some level of creation on Cultivation's part. Stormfather existed long before Honor and Cultivation came to Roshar, but has undergone significant change by Honor since just before Honor's death and probably was highly Invested and Connected by Honor from Honor's arrival.

This is all a little tenuous, but I suspect that adhesion is a creation of Honor and not a fundamental surge, as stated by Raboniel. Honor's Intent specifically deals in bonds and a "surge" that creates and alters bonds would be right in the middle of the Venn diagram of his Intent. Manipulating bonds is far from Odium's Venn diagram middle and may even be outside of anything Odium considers his purview. Creating such abilities in others would then be antithetical to the Shard and difficult if impossible for the Vessel to maintain against the Shard's will.

So: Honor's truest surge is something Tanavast was able bestow because it fits his Shard's Intent. Rayse was unable to do so because the Shard wouldn't like it*. Raboniel was right, but so was the Sibling.

 

*Odium would probably like severing Connections in anger, which sound a lot like something that would be called Void and would feel like Moash feels when under Odium's control.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

22 hours ago, Leuthie said:

I don't believe adhesion is a fundamental force in the Physical Realm, which is what surges are supposed to be.

What fundamental force is Transportation, or Abrasion, or Division?

Quote

Argent

My understanding of the... spren is that they grant powers based on what they understand to be fundamental? Ish?

Brandon Sanderson

Ish. I wouldn't 100% go with that. I would say these are the fundamental forces-- They aren't as scientific as our fundamental forces, but I would say it's more than just what the spren view and what the humans view in that case. But they are more philosophical than scientific, in cases.

Argent

Other cognitive beings, could they-- A spren on Earth. Would it grant electromagnetism surge, for example?

Brandon Sanderson

That, I would say yes.

Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)

They're "fundamental" from a philosophical perspective, not necessarily a scientific one. And the powers spren grant vary based on perception of what is and isn't "fundamental".

[Leuthie]

23 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

What fundamental force is Transportation, or Abrasion, or Division?

They're "fundamental" from a philosophical perspective, not necessarily a scientific one. And the powers spren grant vary based on perception of what is and isn't "fundamental".

Gravitation - Can alter Physical gravity

Division - Destruction and decay, burn, turn to dust, etc. Natural Physical changes amplified.

Abrasion - Can alter Physical friction

Progression - Can speed up Physical growth and healing

Illumination - Can manipulate Physical light and sound

Transformation - Can change things Physically via the Cognitive Realm (convince things to change their Identity)

Transportation - View and travel to Cognitive Realm

Cohesion - intramolecular forces: ionic, covalent, metallic (?), etc. Can alter these forces to mold any non flesh Physical material.

Tension - Similar to cohesion but more limited(?) Can change the stiffness of Physical materials

Adhesion - Can view, create and alter Spiritual Connections.

 

The only "forces" here that aren't Physical first are Transformation, Transportation and Adhesion. Air, Fire, Water and Earth were once fundamental forces. Obviously we're not talking about scientific fundamental forces. A planet whose ecology is determined by a Physical Investiture cycle, a thin veil between Physical and Cognitive Realms, and bonds with Cognitive entities would have a different set of philosophic fundamental forces, which would include Cognitive forces like Transformation and Transportation. The ability to alter Spiritual Connections directly just doesn't fit with the rest of the set.

As I said, this is a bit tenuous just looking at the characteristics of the surges as we know them. Adhesion IS different from the others as it is an almost entirely Spiritual (the Realm of Shards). It is directly using Honor's abilities, making it the closest to Honor.

[Frustration he/him]

2 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Gravitation - Can alter Physical gravity

Division - Destruction and decay, burn, turn to dust, etc. Natural Physical changes amplified.

Abrasion - Can alter Physical friction

Progression - Can speed up Physical growth and healing

Illumination - Can manipulate Physical light and sound

Transformation - Can change things Physically via the Cognitive Realm (convince things to change their Identity)

Transportation - View and travel to Cognitive Realm

Cohesion - intramolecular forces: ionic, covalent, metallic (?), etc. Can alter these forces to mold any non flesh Physical material.

Tension - Similar to cohesion but more limited(?) Can change the stiffness of Physical materials

Adhesion - Can view, create and alter Spiritual Connections.

 

The only "forces" here that aren't Physical first are Transformation, Transportation and Adhesion. Air, Fire, Water and Earth were once fundamental forces. Obviously we're not talking about scientific fundamental forces. A planet whose ecology is determined by a Physical Investiture cycle, a thin veil between Physical and Cognitive Realms, and bonds with Cognitive entities would have a different set of philosophic fundamental forces, which would include Cognitive forces like Transformation and Transportation. The ability to alter Spiritual Connections directly just doesn't fit with the rest of the set.

As I said, this is a bit tenuous just looking at the characteristics of the surges as we know them. Adhesion IS different from the others as it is an almost entirely Spiritual (the Realm of Shards). It is directly using Honor's abilities, making it the closest to Honor.

Adhesion is also preasure and vacuum.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 minute ago, Leuthie said:

The only "forces" here that aren't Physical first are Transformation, Transportation and Adhesion

Adhesion does have Physical effects, though. It sticks things together, and is the Surge of pressure and vacuum (hence being able to mess with the storm, it alters the air pressure). It's mostly Spiritual when used by Bondsmiths, but Bondsmiths are... weird.

[Shob the Voidbringer]

all the surges appear in the physical realm. with transformation, over time things erode, or decay, or change in other ways. with transportation, thats just movement, and i'm pretty sure that KR with it can "teleport" in the same way as the pursuer. and adhesion has been spoken for, but i'm pretty sure dalinar was able to reattach a statue in thaylenah.

[ScadrianTank he/him]

On 18.01.2021 at 6:39 PM, Oltux72 said:

Raising the point for which reason exactly Odium would obey Honor. Or why actually if Honor enjoyed such an authority over Odium why he diod not forbid Odium to kill him.

Maybe Odiums imprisonment on Braize allowed Honor (and possibly Cultivation) to set the terms of engagement, but forbidding him to fight would have set Rayse free. Similar to how Preservation persuaded Ruin to create humans with a promise that he will be able to destroy them eventually, Honor was able to bind Odium to Braize, allowing Rayse some influence over the system.  

[basement_boi he/him]

Progression isn’t necessarily “Cultivation’s truest surge.” The suppressor specifically suppresses Stormlight. Lift uses Lifelight. That is why she is awake.   The Fused have the ability of Progression. Raboniel talks about Adhesion as if it is something that Honor completely made up.

[AquaRegia he/him]

50 minutes ago, basement_boi said:

Progression isn’t necessarily “Cultivation’s truest surge.” The suppressor specifically suppresses Stormlight. Lift uses Lifelight. That is why she is awake.   The Fused have the ability of Progression. Raboniel talks about Adhesion as if it is something that Honor completely made up.

During the occupation of Urithiru, Lift can use Progression, but not Abrasion.  That's got to mean something.

Just because an in-world character says or believes something does not make it true.  One of the constant themes in ALL the Cosmere novels is the way knowledge becomes history, then myth, then legend, and sometimes eventually, religious dogma.  Like the old "telephone" game, things get lost, garbled, and mistranslated over the years.

I think the whole "true surges" thing is a modern misunderstanding.  Part of it has to do with what Roshar was before the Shattering: spren existed, the Highstorm existed, the Singers existed.  The moons and the other planets existed.  The three realms existed.  All of that was "true" somehow.  Part of it is due to the fact that Honor and Cultivation were Invested in Roshar for thousands of years before Odium and Humans came, so what they did gradually became "true".  We don't understand LOTS of important things about all that history, and neither did the Heralds or the Fused.  Everybody is operating with a version of "true" that makes sense based on what they know... but nobody knows everything, so everybody is partly wrong.  Some of them have believed "wrong truths" for literally thousands of years (~looks sideways at the Stormfather~).

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

On 1/17/2021 at 2:13 PM, Clovermite said:

I don't really think it's a thing. I think it's a myth that the Fused bought into so Odium wouldn't have to explain why he doesn't want to give them access to the adhesion surge. In allomancy, we see a lot of powers that are very un-preservation. It seems to me that the shard's intent tends to determine HOW someone can access its investiture to fuel abilities, not WHAT the ability they can fuel with the shard's investiture.

I think there is an old WoB saying something along those lines, but I had trouble searching it down.

If this is the case, then why does the suppression in Urithiru in RoW seem to have little to no effect on Adhesion or Progression?  

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

57 minutes ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

If this is the case, then why does the suppression in Urithiru in RoW seem to have little to no effect on Adhesion or Progression?  

And also, wait, if this is the case, would the non-inverted suppression fabrial not stop Progression-fused?? obvs there are no Adhesion fused, but...

[Proletariat]

I don't know that it's due to it necessarily more true to Honor, but perhaps that it was the surge that he found most concerning.

There's the implication that Bondsmiths (and therefore the ability to bind things with Connection) existed before the Oathpact and Radiant bonds, that the aspiration was to restrict this power, and that they were aligned to Odium before Honor. This suggests that the power was either something independent of shards, or was granted via another shard like Odium. So perhaps it's less that it's associated with Honor but that there's something fundamental about the surge, which is why its use has been restricted so tightly to only those connected to godspren, or the very moralistic honorspren who Honor personally created?

Edited January 24, 2021 by Proletariat

[AquaRegia he/him]

14 hours ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

If this is the case, then why does the suppression in Urithiru in RoW seem to have little to no effect on Adhesion or Progression?  

I don't think this is true - or, at least, it's not completely true.  My impression is that Radiants of the 4th Ideal are Connected enough to overcome the blocking power of the Tower's suppression fabrial.  Kaladin was basically there - he had "reached" the 4th Ideal, he just hadn't spoken the Words yet.  All the other Windrunners were unconscious.  Lift, of course, is a special case - her Progression doesn't need Stormlight; she makes food into Lifelight.  She's also approaching the 4th Ideal.  All the other Edgedancers were out cold.

Neither of these requires "little to no effect" on specific Surges to explain... although I agree there are still mysteries.  The unconscious Windrunners were "closest" to being awake; Lift can use Progression but NOT Abrasion.  Navani bonds with The Sibling and becomes an Invested (and conscious) Bondsmith BEFORE the polarity of the Tower fabrial is reversed.  If Dalinar had been in the Tower when the fabrial was corrupted, would he have fallen unconscious?  Clearly it all means something, but we don't know enough yet to answer all the questions.

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

1 minute ago, AquaRegia said:

I don't think this is true - or, at least, it's not completely true.  My impression is that Radiants of the 4th Ideal are Connected enough to overcome the blocking power of the Tower's suppression fabrial.  Kaladin was basically there - he had "reached" the 4th Ideal, he just hadn't spoken the Words yet.  All the other Windrunners were unconscious.  Lift, of course, is a special case - her Progression doesn't need Stormlight; she makes food into Lifelight.  She's also approaching the 4th Ideal.  All the other Edgedancers were out cold.

Neither of these requires "little to no effect" on specific Surges to explain... although I agree there are still mysteries.  The unconscious Windrunners were "closest" to being awake; Lift can use Progression but NOT Abrasion.  Navani bonds with The Sibling and becomes an Invested (and conscious) Bondsmith BEFORE the polarity of the Tower fabrial is reversed.  If Dalinar had been in the Tower when the fabrial was corrupted, would he have fallen unconscious?  Clearly it all means something, but we don't know enough yet to answer all the questions.

Aren't there actual quotes in the book that point to Adhesion being Honor's 'truest' surge?  Feel like Brandon wouldn't just straight up misdirect us like that.  Yes there isn't enough evidence, but there's a lot more evidence for than against this theory.

[AquaRegia he/him]

5 minutes ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

Aren't there actual quotes in the book that point to Adhesion being Honor's 'truest' surge?  Feel like Brandon wouldn't just straight up misdirect us like that.  Yes there isn't enough evidence, but there's a lot more evidence for than against this theory.

Yes, but those quotes are from in-world CHARACTERS.  They believe wrong stuff all the time.  How many times has the Stormfather declared something is impossible, only for that exact thing to happen later?   How about "Deadeye spren can't talk"?

Just because characters say or believe something doesn't make it true.  Nobody knows everything, not even the Shardholders.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

9 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

Yes, but those quotes are from in-world CHARACTERS.  They believe wrong stuff all the time.  How many times has the Stormfather declared something is impossible, only for that exact thing to happen later?   How about "Deadeye spren can't talk"?

Just because characters say or believe something doesn't make it true.  Nobody knows everything, not even the Shardholders.

Additionally, it's fully possible for both to be true, that some of the Surges may be more aligned with one Shard or another, and that Odium lied and used this fact as a pretense to withhold a power he worried about from the Fused. The best lies are those with a partial truth behind them. 

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

On 1/24/2021 at 10:28 AM, AquaRegia said:

Yes, but those quotes are from in-world CHARACTERS.  They believe wrong stuff all the time.  How many times has the Stormfather declared something is impossible, only for that exact thing to happen later?   How about "Deadeye spren can't talk"?

Just because characters say or believe something doesn't make it true.  Nobody knows everything, not even the Shardholders.

I completely agree, however, I don't think Brandon uses red herrings in that way.  He's always been a bit more subtle than that.  I take these character quotes as confirmations, to an extent.  Especially at this point in the series.  This is the penultimate book in the first arc, so stuff like this almost has to not be a red herring for the story to feel satisfying.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

23 minutes ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

I completely agree, however, I don't think Brandon uses red herrings in that way.  He's always been a bit more subtle than that.  I take these character quotes as confirmations, to an extent.  Especially at this point in the series.  This is the penultimate book in the first arc, so stuff like this almost has to not be a red herring for the story to feel satisfying.

I mean, this is in the same lecture where the character not only says Honor and Cultivation invented gravity, but that they did so consciously and intentionally... The knowledge of this sort of topic there is clearly flawed.

Edited January 25, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

1 minute ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I mean, this is in the same lecture where the character not only says Honor and Cultivation invented gravity, but that they did so consciously and intentionally... The knowledge of this sort of topic there is clearly flawed.

They obviously didn't invent gravity itself, but they very well could be the source of the ability for people to control gravity through surges.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

Just now, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

They obviously didn't invent gravity itself, but they very well could be the source of the ability for people to control gravity through surges.

Sure, Surgebinding comes from Honor and Cultivation. Still demonstrates a rather large flaw in the understanding of how it works on the part of the character.