Teams in the Cosmere

[mathiau]

I'm taking team Harmony because you included Cultivation in theam Roshar and she has cooties she's at least as bad of an utilitarian as Taraganvagian

On 15/01/2021 at 1:04 PM, Elegy said:

Neat idea! I'd also add the "Arcanists"/Silverlight (Khriss and Nazh), and the Ire/Sel.

My vote would go to the Arcanists - can't wait to see more of them!

Aren't they all part of the 17th shard?

[Elegy]

58 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Aren't they all part of the 17th shard?

No:

Quote

Wetlander

As of Secret History, is Khriss working with the Seventeenth Shard at that time?

Brandon Sanderson

Khriss works with anybody who is interested in the information that she has. She is a--

Wetlander

Freelancer?

Brandon Sanderson

No, not a freelancer, really, she is a-- She'd get along with Edward Snowden, right? She is-- For the good of the cosmere, in her opinion, she is providing this information. She thinks that it'll be useful for everyone. So if the Seventeenth Shard comes to her and says "We want to know this" and she knows it, she will tell them. If Hoid comes to her and says "I want to know this", she would tell him. So Khriss will work with anyone who she thinks their motives are for the good of the cosmere in general.

Bystander

Not strictly a mercenary?

Brandon Sanderson

No, not a mercenary, she's kind of a freedom of information type person.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

Edit: Both seem to have their home bases in Silverlight though, which is a bit confusing!

Edited January 17, 2021 by Elegy
Sorry for being so short-spoken at first, I was in a hurry ^^

[+Oltux72]

On 15.1.2021 at 6:22 PM, AquaRegia said:

Agreed - I'm having some serious misgivings about the number of enthusiastic murder spies in this forum right now LOL

Apparently I'm the only member of Team Harmony so far.  "You make me sad."  In my mind, he is clearly the ONLY "team leader" we know (with a reasonable degree of confidence) whose goal is the best interests of sapient life in the Cosmere as a whole.

If you are on team Harmony, you'll be a tool, not a subordinate member. Honor demanded that you do your duty. Odium wants to have ruthless henchmen. Even Endowment at least lets you know that you are a tool.
Not so Harmony, he lets you shoot your wife without telling you. He has a tendency to work for your interest, but not your wishes. He decides when it is time to go to the vet.

[Vissy]

I'm on Team Ghostbloods because it's probably the most human organization out of these. The 17th Shard and Team Arcanists are... too distant 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Why? It is a team that does something. It is the only team you can join without ethnic prejudices, unless you want to serve a Shard. Sure, you may like the Elantrians, but if you are not one of them, you'll never be, no way around that.

That's like arguing that a American Chinese war would be unjust to join, because it is "ethnicly prejudice" this is a war of Nations not races. I'm fine if you want to back Kelsier, but at least have a realistic reason.

[Chinkoln]

10 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I am well aware of what Kelsier is and would never back him in RL. As a character I adore him, as I do most tricksters. I find their chaotic neutral natures a lot of fun.

Exactly. In real life, he should probably go to prison or a mental asylum. In the book, that is possibly the best character arc, motivations, and actions I have ever seen.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Why? It is a team that does something. It is the only team you can join without ethnic prejudices, unless you want to serve a Shard. Sure, you may like the Elantrians, but if you are not one of them, you'll never be, no way around that.

Ya, I like knowing that I will be part of something. In my mind, the Arcanists and Harmony only observe, never take action. Odium is evil. The Ire isn’t well known. Elantrians aren’t of use when they leave a certain area. Dalinar will probably plan for years before taking decisive actions.

Kelsier, he follows through. He makes a plan and completes it. He knows what is going on and he adapts, but he doesn’t back down.

[AquaRegia]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

If you are on team Harmony, you'll be a tool, not a subordinate member. Honor demanded that you do your duty. Odium wants to have ruthless henchmen. Even Endowment at least lets you know that you are a tool.
Not so Harmony, he lets you shoot your wife without telling you. He has a tendency to work for your interest, but not your wishes. He decides when it is time to go to the vet.

Given the choices available, I'm just fine with that.  A god who knows more than I do, wants what's best for everyone, and literally CAN'T just smash anyone who disagrees with him?  That sounds FINE. 

Kelsier wouldn't need to let me shoot my wife - he'd shoot me, my wife, my kids and my whole extended family himself if it got him what HE wants.  That's my real problem with him right now - as far as we know, it's only about what HE wants, and it looks to me like he wants to be the next Lord Ruler.  I hope I'm wrong, I'd much rather have him as an ally.

[Chinkoln]

1 minute ago, AquaRegia said:

Given the choices available, I'm just fine with that.  A god who knows more than I do, wants what's best for everyone, and literally CAN'T just smash anyone who disagrees with him?  That sounds FINE. 

Kelsier wouldn't need to let me shoot my wife - he'd shoot me, my wife, my kids and my whole extended family himself if it got him what HE wants.  That's my real problem with him right now - as far as we know, it's only about what HE wants, and it looks to me like he wants to be the next Lord Ruler.  I hope I'm wrong, I'd much rather have him as an ally.

To be honest, I would be fine if he was the Lord Ruler. I actually liked Rashek once I understood his reasons. I will reiterate, in real life, I would never stand for what either of them has done, but it the book it makes sense. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 hour ago, AquaRegia said:

Given the choices available, I'm just fine with that.  A god who knows more than I do, wants what's best for everyone, and literally CAN'T just smash anyone who disagrees with him?  That sounds FINE. 

Kelsier wouldn't need to let me shoot my wife - he'd shoot me, my wife, my kids and my whole extended family himself if it got him what HE wants.  That's my real problem with him right now - as far as we know, it's only about what HE wants, and it looks to me like he wants to be the next Lord Ruler.  I hope I'm wrong, I'd much rather have him as an ally.

Kell would not kill your kids. He does have his lines and that’s one of them. Not much of a line, but hey! And if your wife is pregnant he’ll spare her too - at least until she gives birth.

I think we need to know what Kelsier really wants before jumping to conclusions. So far we’ve mostly seen his crew trying to get ahold of ethically sustainable Investiture, try to free him from Scadrial, and attempt to wipe out the SoH who - lets be fair - deserve it. The only thing I’ve really had an issue with is Mraize selling Lift - and he did ensure she’d survive the sale, which is better than a lot of antagonist characters we’ve seen.

Right now he seems to be running the Cosmere Mafia, which is very in character for Kelsier. He’s a thief and a conman before everything. That is the kind of thing he would naturally do.

Ruling, however, bores him. WoB on that one, btw. An old one, but borne out by his decision to quit the South to run the Ghostbloods (probably.) He literally was a ruler there and he gave it up to do what he enjoys most - subterfuge. Cons. Trickery. One upping everyone else. 

Kelsier has no desire to be TLR. That would be too easy - and much too boring. He just wants to outwit everyone else.

I don’t think Saze was the one behind Lessie’s death though. I think Kelsier did it as a favor to Sazed. It’s not Saze’s MO - it’s Kelsier’s. The whole thing was a con.

Tricking someone into thinking they murdered their wife is a very Kelsier move. Sazed is too honest for it; he kept information from Wax later, but only because he knew Wax would make the same choice regardless and he wanted to make it easier for him. For the con to work someone had to keep Paalm from revealing herself for hours and Kelsier is cold enough to do it. I don’t think Saze is.

 

[Part of the One]

I'm going team Endowment. I think she's got a big part to play in how all this will go down, between Vasher's and the creation of Nightblood which obviously has major cosmere implications. 

Speaking of Vasher's purpose for being Returned, the name Warbreaker might still have a foreshadowed meaning in the future, like finding a way to stop an interplanetary war.

[+Oltux72]

2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I don’t think Saze was the one behind Lessie’s death though. I think Kelsier did it as a favor to Sazed. It’s not Saze’s MO - it’s Kelsier’s. The whole thing was a con.

But what is the benefit to Sazed? I mean, getting rid of Paalm is an obvious benefit, but almost breaking Waxillium and turning him away from the Path is clearly not.

2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Tricking someone into thinking they murdered their wife is a very Kelsier move.

To an enemy or victim.

2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Sazed is too honest for it; he kept information from Wax later, but only because he knew Wax would make the same choice regardless and he wanted to make it easier for him. For the con to work someone had to keep Paalm from revealing herself for hours and Kelsier is cold enough to do it. I don’t think Saze is.

That is something Kelsier would not do to one of his people. Remember how he treated Vin. If he thought that your wife needed killing he would tell you.so. He may kill you, too, just to be thorough, but he will always treat you like somebody who deserves his own choices - or kill you.

5 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

Kelsier wouldn't need to let me shoot my wife - he'd shoot me, my wife, my kids and my whole extended family himself if it got him what HE wants.  That's my real problem with him right now - as far as we know, it's only about what HE wants, and it looks to me like he wants to be the next Lord Ruler.  I hope I'm wrong, I'd much rather have him as an ally.

That is what somebody who is doing what Thaidakar does and needs to be done, must be ready to do.

[Kingsdaughter613]

22 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

But what is the benefit to Sazed? I mean, getting rid of Paalm is an obvious benefit, but almost breaking Waxillium and turning him away from the Path is clearly not.

To an enemy or victim.

That is something Kelsier would not do to one of his people. Remember how he treated Vin. If he thought that your wife needed killing he would tell you.so. He may kill you, too, just to be thorough, but he will always treat you like somebody who deserves his own choices - or kill you.

That is what somebody who is doing what Thaidakar does and needs to be done, must be ready to do.

Kelsier would see it as a benefit. Whether or not Saze agrees... But ultimately it was a benefit, so I don’t see how you’re arguing otherwise.

Wax isn’t one of Kelsier’s. And he has no problem manipulating people he doesn’t care about. Wax is Harmony’s and he wasn’t doing what Saze needed him to do, so Kelsier arranged matters so Wax would. Now, if Wax was a Ghostblood...

You’re arguing that Kelsier has to be willing to break a line we haven’t seen him break and do something everything we know about him says he wouldn’t, but also claiming that he wouldn’t con Wax into killing his wife? You’re literally arguing against yourself here...

[mathiau]

33 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

But what is the benefit to Sazed? I mean, getting rid of Paalm is an obvious benefit, but almost breaking Waxillium and turning him away from the Path is clearly not.

I see no benefit in getting rid of Paalm. And attuning Wax to Ruin by almost breaking him -almost being the important word- so he can become Harmony's champion was one of the objectives of the manoeuvre.

[Chinkoln]

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

I see no benefit in getting rid of Paalm. And attuning Wax to Ruin by almost breaking him -almost being the important word- so he can become Harmony's champion was one of the objectives of the manoeuvre.

Era 2 happens after the first 5 Stormlight books, and we have seen proof of Harmony’s interactions and spies on Roshar. I wonder if the contest of champions on Roshar led Sazed to realize that this would eventually come to his planet, and he needed to take action now.

[Kingsdaughter613]

2 hours ago, Chinkoln said:

Era 2 happens after the first 5 Stormlight books, and we have seen proof of Harmony’s interactions and spies on Roshar. I wonder if the contest of champions on Roshar led Sazed to realize that this would eventually come to his planet, and he needed to take action now.

Technically, we have only seen proof of Kelsier’s involvement on Roshar.

3 hours ago, mathiau said:

I see no benefit in getting rid of Paalm. And attuning Wax to Ruin by almost breaking him -almost being the important word- so he can become Harmony's champion was one of the objectives of the manoeuvre.

The benefit was the observed one: Wax returned to Elendel to act as Harmony’s champion.

And Kell would probably expect Saze to inform Paalm/Wax who had been behind the deception if it came up. Saze would feel too guilty for not stopping Kelsier though and it’s also not like Saze to transfer guilt even when he should.

[Chinkoln]

40 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Technically, we have only seen proof of Kelsier’s involvement on Roshar.

In RoW, Harmony sends a letter to Hoid. There is also a WoB that says that we have seen a kandra in the book. We know that kandra are the agents and spies of Harmony.

[Kingsdaughter613]

9 minutes ago, Chinkoln said:

In RoW, Harmony sends a letter to Hoid. There is also a WoB that says that we have seen a kandra in the book. We know that kandra are the agents and spies of Harmony.

The ones we’ve seen. There may be others - I wouldn’t put it past Kell to recruit one.

And sending a letter is not the same thing as being involved. Saze probably is, but we haven’t actually seen evidence of it yet.

[Tacitus]

On 1/15/2021 at 7:13 PM, LuckyJim said:

They got beaten by a guy who barely even knew what a shard was.

We're... Going to ignore that. 

*Snap*

Boom. Forgotten. We're ignoring it now.

[sentinel]

Honor. Simply because the central focus of that magic system is becoming better people. All the rest are either wild cards who we don't know nearly enough about, fairly decent people who turn out fairly okay but at the same time would be excessively dangerous to be around because of the things they get involved with, or psychopaths. Not counting the just plain evil ones of course. My chances of survival are probably best with Honor, especially if I can find some Windrunners to hang around- protect those who can't protect themselves, right?

Edited January 22, 2021 by sentinel
changed series to magic system