Problems with Shards

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

I recently finished reading everything in the Cosmere.  I put off Mistborn Era 2 for a while.  

 

After reading RoW, I was disappointed by the death of Rayse.  Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Taravangian as the new Odium, and I'm very excited--and very terrified--to see where this will go.  The problem I have is with the utterly pathetic role of Rayse throughout the whole book.  He failed in epic proportion with turning Dalinar in OB and failed to turn Kaladin after.  His forces captured Urithiru and were defeated by basically a single Radiant and Navani.  Then, he entered into a pathetic deal with Dalinar.. This literal god of infinite power has been constantly outmaneuvered and defeated by a few mortals with some Surgebinding abilites.  And this led me to a new realization that encompasses the entire Cosmere.

 

Shards don't really come across as all that powerful.  They all seem incompetent, and they all seem to be unable to actually do anything.  Now, I know that they really are powerful beyond comprehension, and I know that Shards have shaped the Cosmere for thousands of years, but it just feels lackluster to always see Shards being defeated by a few humans that somehow outsmart a god.  It seems lackluster to always see Shards unable to act for one reason or another.  Honor is dead.  Odium is trapped on Braize.  Cultivation doesn't ever come out of the shadows.  Harmony can't act because of his nature.  Ruin and Preservation couldn't really do anything because they opposed each other.  Autonomy is doing stuff, but we haven't seen much.  Whimsy, Mercy, Valor, Invention, Ambition, Devotion and Dominion have been absent for the most part.  There are 16 gods in the Cosmere, but we haven't seen them do much that really demonstrates their power over mortals, and I would really like to see something like that.

 

This could all be fixed in Stormlight 5.  I want to see Taravangian escape Braize, and I want to see him destroy.  I want to be terrified by a Shard for once, and I want to see our human protagonists actually find themselves in a realistic situation where there is nothing they can do to stop a god from doing what they want.

Edited January 1, 2021 by Ba-Ado-Fisherman

[Ixthos he/him]

A very salient point, though the implications are very risky. Before Harmony was inhibited he did amazing things, reshaping the planet, changing the orbit, restoring lost life. And before that, if you count the Well, Rashek likewise did amazing things, in a sense the opposite of Harmony, including warping life to change an entire people group into mistwraiths - and that is frightening. Odium also implied if he were free he would change the people on the planet. I'm hoping we do see more impressive and terrifying things, but remember if the shards weren't restricted they could literally do anything they want to the characters. Could you see a compelling story where the villain could choose to turn anyone they want into an amorphous shapeshifting blob, or rewrite them to be loyal to them? Then the only reason the characters wouldn't lose is because the villain is incompetent. Taravangian is smart, so the danger should be from his intelligence and from few other characters realising Odium now has a new mind focusing it - we shouldn't see the shards unleashed against mortals, they couldn't stop that, but we should see the intelligent use of the abilities.

Though shards fighting one another or doing interesting things elsewhere, not against the characters, would be interesting.

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

4 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

A very salient point, though the implications are very risky. Before Harmony was inhibited he did amazing things, reshaping the planet, changing the orbit, restoring lost life. And before that, if you count the Well, Rashek likewise did amazing things, in a sense the opposite of Harmony, including warping life to change an entire people group into mistwraiths - and that is frightening. Odium also implied if he were free he would change the people on the planet. I'm hoping we do see more impressive and terrifying things, but remember if the shards weren't restricted they could literally do anything they want to the characters. Could you see a compelling story where the villain could choose to turn anyone they want into an amorphous shapeshifting blob, or rewrite them to be loyal to them? Then the only reason the characters wouldn't lose is because the villain is incompetent. Taravangian is smart, so the danger should be from his intelligence and from few other characters realising Odium now has a new mind focusing it - we shouldn't see the shards unleashed against mortals, they couldn't stop that, but we should see the intelligent use of the abilities.

Though shards fighting one another or doing interesting things elsewhere, not against the characters, would be interesting.

I agree that Shards need to be brought down a bit in order for the story to even work, but I just feel that constant victories by mortals against gods leads to a feeling that Shards aren't all that powerful, even though Brandon has definitely shown that they are.  I guess what I really want to see is an "evil" Shard have a victory of some sort.  Maybe even seeing a flashback of some sort where Odium and Honor clashed, or Odium and Mercy and Ambition clashing.  I'd love to see an antagonistic Shard show the extent of their power and their ability to destroy things on a cosmic scale, because so far, Odium has been portrayed as pathetically weak minded and incompetent.  Although I'm sure you're right about Taravangian changing that, which is why I'm so very excited for Stromlight 5.  Probably the most excited I've ever been for a book before, even more so than the WoT finale.

[Taravangian in Training he/him]

I guess to some extent the Shards have become complacent when it comes to mortals and often are only shown fearing other shards. Living for thousands of years has probably made them underestimate their own creations.

You make a great point that seeing Odium leave Braize and go conquering through the Cosmere would be amazing and it does seem like the series is going that way. Some shards seem to have their own champions or weapons (Wax, maybe Lift? and probably others) who may be brought in to handle inter-shard conflict.

[Ixthos he/him]

52 minutes ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

I agree that Shards need to be brought down a bit in order for the story to even work, but I just feel that constant victories by mortals against gods leads to a feeling that Shards aren't all that powerful, even though Brandon has definitely shown that they are.  I guess what I really want to see is an "evil" Shard have a victory of some sort.  Maybe even seeing a flashback of some sort where Odium and Honor clashed, or Odium and Mercy and Ambition clashing.  I'd love to see an antagonistic Shard show the extent of their power and their ability to destroy things on a cosmic scale, because so far, Odium has been portrayed as pathetically weak minded and incompetent.  Although I'm sure you're right about Taravangian changing that, which is why I'm so very excited for Stromlight 5.  Probably the most excited I've ever been for a book before, even more so than the WoT finale.

That would be cool :-) I also would have liked to see a hypothetical story where Ruin clashed with Odium (Marsh and the inquisitors vs the Fused, Ruin and Odium's passions against each other), as I think it is the one villainous shard which could stand up to Odium and win, though the shards aren't truly villainous but some are more easily seen as negative rather than positive. Cosmic use of a shards power however I agree is definitely something I think the story could use.

[Nathrangking he/him]

1 hour ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

I recently finished reading everything in the Cosmere.  I put off Mistborn Era 2 for a while.  

 

After reading RoW, I was disappointed by the death of Rayse.  Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Taravangian as the new Odium, and I'm very excited--and very terrified--to see where this will go.  The problem I have is with the utterly pathetic role of Rayse throughout the whole book.  He failed in epic proportion with turning Dalinar in OB and failed to turn Kaladin after.  His forces captured Urithiru and were defeated by basically a single Radiant and Navani.  Then, he entered into a pathetic deal with Dalinar.. This literal god of infinite power has been constantly outmaneuvered and defeated by a few mortals with some Surgebinding abilites.  And this led me to a new realization that encompasses the entire Cosmere.

 

Shards don't really come across as all that powerful.  They all seem incompetent, and they all seem to be unable to actually do anything.  Now, I know that they really are powerful beyond comprehension, and I know that Shards have shaped the Cosmere for thousands of years, but it just feels lackluster to always see Shards being defeated by a few humans that somehow outsmart a god.  It seems lackluster to always see Shards unable to act for one reason or another.  Honor is dead.  Odium is trapped on Braize.  Cultivation doesn't ever come out of the shadows.  Harmony can't act because of his nature.  Ruin and Preservation couldn't really do anything because they opposed each other.  Autonomy is doing stuff, but we haven't seen much.  Whimsy, Mercy, Valor, Invention, Ambition, Devotion and Dominion have been absent for the most part.  There are 16 gods in the Cosmere, but we haven't seen them do much that really demonstrates their power over mortals, and I would really like to see something like that.

 

This cold all be fixed in Stormlight 5.  I want to see Taravangian escape Braize, and I want to see him destroy.  I want to be terrified by a Shard for once, and I want to see our human protagonists actually find themselves in a realistic situation where there is nothing they can do to stop a god from doing what they want.

1 hour ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

I agree that Shards need to be brought down a bit in order for the story to even work, but I just feel that constant victories by mortals against gods leads to a feeling that Shards aren't all that powerful, even though Brandon has definitely shown that they are.  I guess what I really want to see is an "evil" Shard have a victory of some sort.  Maybe even seeing a flashback of some sort where Odium and Honor clashed, or Odium and Mercy and Ambition clashing.  I'd love to see an antagonistic Shard show the extent of their power and their ability to destroy things on a cosmic scale, because so far, Odium has been portrayed as pathetically weak minded and incompetent.  Although I'm sure you're right about Taravangian changing that, which is why I'm so very excited for Stromlight 5.  Probably the most excited I've ever been for a book before, even more so than the WoT finale.

I agree that it would be awesome to see Shards unleash their full might upon each other or worlds. Brandon would have to moderate this though otherwise it would be impossible for the characters to do anything other than die. Perhaps he could have Sazed or someone else warp harmony into Discord. A battle between Discord and Odium would shake the very cosmere. Thus far Odium had the misfortune of being held by Rayse who while crafty was an egomaniac. He believed himself more powerful than others and thus underestimated them. Vargodium will make no such mistake. He is meticulous in his planning and execution. I'm legitimately afraid of what he is capable of. If Cultivation has misread the situation then things are going to get incredibly bad incredibly fast. At this point Endowment is the wildcard that could shift the balance of power. We will have to see how things play out.

 

27 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

That would be cool :-) I also would have liked to see a hypothetical story where Ruin clashed with Odium (Marsh and the inquisitors vs the Fused, Ruin and Odium's passions against each other), as I think it is the one villainous shard which could stand up to Odium and win, though the shards aren't truly villainous but some are more easily seen as negative rather than positive. Cosmic use of a shards power however I agree is definitely something I think the story could use.

At this point the Discord and maybe Endowment could battle him effectively. 

[Lunu’anaki he/him]

2 hours ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

I guess what I really want to see is an "evil" Shard have a victory of some sort.  Maybe even seeing a flashback of some sort where Odium and Honor clashed, or Odium and Mercy and Ambition clashing. 

I think the most likely scenario for seeing this sort of thing would be in a flashback. I think you're right. It would be amazing and really get across the terror which these shards should instill.

Let me play devils-advocate for a second here too though: I also think these Shards being bound is a big thematic thing in the Cosmere. The audacity of a mortal to think they could hold the power of a god and wield it effectively, the powers being more in control than the vessels, things of that nature seem to be wrapped up in the overarching story of the Cosmere as well.

[StanLemon]

Keep in mind that most of the victories humans have had against Shards happen through a combination of previous Shard bindings and the manipulations of other Shards. Dalinar was able to resist Odium because of Cultivation's manipulations. Odium was forced to rely on his followers because of Honor's prison. Ruin was stopped because of a plan that Preservation put into place thousands of years ago. It seems to me that the Cosmere is merely in a cold war between Shardic machinations. It's not merely mortals beating gods, but gods using mortals to outmaneuver other gods

Edited January 1, 2021 by StanLemon

[Zelly]

1 hour ago, Lunu’anaki said:

Let me play devils-advocate for a second here too though: I also think these Shards being bound is a big thematic thing in the Cosmere. The audacity of a mortal to think they could hold the power of a god and wield it effectively, the powers being more in control than the vessels, things of that nature seem to be wrapped up in the overarching story of the Cosmere as well.

Agreed, especially with all this talk of on Roshar of being unbound (Wit, bondsmiths, crazy stuff happening on Ashyn and possible Yolen?).

I think we'll see a lot more of these checks and balances (or the consequences of the lack thereof).

I also agree it's a smart move on Brandon's part, or else you just have overpowered literal gods on the battlefield and that just makes for meh writing.

[Elegy he/him]

It's a fine balance. I've always insisted that too much Shard interference could make a story less compelling ... I don't want every decision a character makes to be part of a grand scheme of gods that know much more than them and basically play them around. That's why I hope that Cultivation's TOdium plan for book 5 isn't too deep, because I'd ideally want to see a showdown without any back-up plan by some deity. Just the weight of it all on the shoulders of a bunch of humans who don't really know what they're doing. It makes it more exciting. (On a side-note, I also still hope that Odium didn't cause the destruction of Ashyn too overtly. I think it's more interesting if the humans themselves just screwed up with a bit of assistance from Odium's part, rather than being manipulated into it. Because humans don't need some deities to trick them into destroying their planets. They can do that very well on their own.)

Then again, I definitely see your point that these deities should sometimes do more than they do in the story, just logically speaking, and agree with it to an extent. I think Brandon is aware of the problems of this situation. The Shards have to be powerful, but not powerful enough to make everything else meaningless. That's probably why the capital-O Oaths exist, and other things that bind the Shards. Odium's raw power could undoubtedly destroy planets, but there are rules to how a Shard works, and these rules are a means to control that power - in-world, but especially for Brandon as a story-teller. It's a balancing act that will continue throughout the Cosmere, and he could overdo either side. I personally am a bit more worried about a "Shards do too much", but there's certainly at least as many people that see it the other way around.

I just hope that we will get more explanations soon regarding the limits of Shard actions, because the ominous things that make it so hard for Odium to act are still very unclear.

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

1 hour ago, Lunu’anaki said:

I think the most likely scenario for seeing this sort of thing would be in a flashback. I think you're right. It would be amazing and really get across the terror which these shards should instill.

Let me play devils-advocate for a second here too though: I also think these Shards being bound is a big thematic thing in the Cosmere. The audacity of a mortal to think they could hold the power of a god and wield it effectively, the powers being more in control than the vessels, things of that nature seem to be wrapped up in the overarching story of the Cosmere as well.

I 100% agree.  Brandon has already shown that there is an inherent problem with gods that are bound by a single Intent, and that's why I personally think that Adonalsium will be reformed at some point.  I guess my issue isn't with Brandon's writing or with his storytelling, but more a problem with the Cosmere that simply has to exist.  Shards need to have weaknesses in order for our protagonists to stand a chance.  I'd just like to see a little more competence from our villains.  Rayse in RoW really put a sour taste in my mouth.

[Lunu’anaki he/him]

2 hours ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

I 100% agree.  Brandon has already shown that there is an inherent problem with gods that are bound by a single Intent, and that's why I personally think that Adonalsium will be reformed at some point.  I guess my issue isn't with Brandon's writing or with his storytelling, but more a problem with the Cosmere that simply has to exist.  Shards need to have weaknesses in order for our protagonists to stand a chance.  I'd just like to see a little more competence from our villains.  Rayse in RoW really put a sour taste in my mouth.

Yeah, I can see that. I suppose I'm more forgiving of Rayse being outmaneuvered, partly because of the lack of cohesion the Vessel had with the Shard, but also because I think we are going to see a lot of peak Rayse in the back half's Herald flashbacks!

[Aon Tia she/her]

@Ba-Ado-Fisherman  Ok I get what you are trying to say but I don’t really agree at all with your premise that gods are being fooled and defeated easily by “mere mortals”

Whenever a shard is getting defeated, some other god involved in making it happen. And where shards are fighting with one other, well it is logical that some shards/gods will appear weaker if not in power then in strategy and in getting results for their side. Cough cough Rayse. 
 

8 hours ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

He failed in epic proportion with turning Dalinar in OB

Cultivation! 

8 hours ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

failed to turn Kaladin after. 

well Kaladin is just too much of a chullhead to get turned! 

8 hours ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

His forces captured Urithiru and were defeated by basically a single Radiant and Navani.

I don’t really see this as something Rayse planned really. It was all Raboniel really and she did get what she really wanted from the tower. 
 

8 hours ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

Honor is dead.  Odium is trapped on Braize.  Cultivation doesn't ever come out of the shadows.  Harmony can't act because of his nature.  Ruin and Preservation couldn't really do anything because they opposed each other. 

well that is what happens when you have gods warring with each other which also shows that just because a bunch of people killed the God, they still may not be the smartest cookies !! 
As for shard that is very powerful and has things a lot more under her control, well I would like to see that too. Endowment comes close but well she is too indirect in her manoeuvrings. I mean, in-world people don’t even know if her existence! 

[Frustration he/him]

@Ba-Ado-Fisherman While I agree wholeheartedly about shards not being scary, they aren't gods. That's the point they aren't all powerful, Hoid turned one down specifically because it would be too restricitve.

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

Just now, Frustration said:

@Ba-Ado-Fisherman While I agree wholeheartedly about shards not being scary, they aren't gods. That's the point they aren't all powerful, Hoid turned one down specifically because it would be too restricitve.

I disagree with that.  Shards are immortal beings with near infinite power.  They are gods, they just aren't omnipotent.

[Frustration he/him]

8 minutes ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

I disagree with that.  Shards are immortal beings with near infinite power.  They are gods, they just aren't omnipotent.

That's not how infinity works, Even if you have 10^10^10^10^10^10^10 kilowats you are still equally far from infinity as zero

Edited January 7, 2021 by Frustration

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

Brandon has said that Shards have access to infinite investiture, and Harmony even says himself that he isn't necessarily more powerful than other Shards just because he holds two, given that infinity + infinity is still infinity...  You're entitled to your own interpretation of course, but I think it's pretty obvious that Brandon created Shards to be the literal gods of the Cosmere, and there is evidence in-book and WoBs to support that claim. 

[Frustration he/him]

21 minutes ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

Brandon has said that Shards have access to infinite investiture, and Harmony even says himself that he isn't necessarily more powerful than other Shards just because he holds two, given that infinity + infinity is still infinity...  You're entitled to your own interpretation of course, but I think it's pretty obvious that Brandon created Shards to be the literal gods of the Cosmere, and there is evidence in-book and WoBs to support that claim. 

No, the Litteral god is the God Beyond

Also

WoB

Spoiler

emailanimal

From a very recent signing, we have this new Word of Brandon...

chasmfriend's son: Is there a finite amount of Investiture?

Brandon: Yes.

chasmfriend's son: So is Nightblood consuming it?

Brandon: Yes. Very, very slowly.

This worries me somewhat because of the following observation.

Nightblood consumes Breath (and other Investiture, but let's limit ourselves to Breath for a second).

Every person on Nalthis is born with one Breath.

Populations tend to grow. Which means that under normal rules of demographics, population of Nalthis should keep increasing.

This in turn means that under normal circumstances the number of people with Breath on Nalthis should be growing.

I can see the following possible explanations to this:

1. Endowment can give Breath to many more people than are currently living on Nalthis. So, the exponential population growth has not yet reached the level at which Endowment's ability to award a Breath to each Nalthis-born human is seriously challenged. When it happens though, things will not go well.

2. There is some built-in mechanism controlling population growth on Nalthis, making certain that the population stays within the limits. Nightblood's consumption of Breath makes these limits smaller, and overall may lead to Endowment's inability to grant Breath to Nalthis-born, but not for a while (essentially, Endowment controls population trends at she sees fit).

Thoughts?

Brandon Sanderson

Just as a point you should understand, the amount of MATTER in the cosmere is finite too. As is the amount of energy.

Worrying that Endowment will run out of Breaths to give is a little like worrying that the amount of carbon on Earth will run out because people keep being born.

uchoo786

So just for clarification, once Nightblood consumes investiture, that investiture gets recycled? That's what I've always assumed. That it enters the cognitive/spiritual realm?

Brandon Sanderson

The investiture he consumes is not gone forever--it's not leaving the system, so to speak.

General Reddit 2015 (Dec. 14, 2015)

 

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

No, the Litteral god is the God Beyond

Also

WoB

  Hide contents

emailanimal

From a very recent signing, we have this new Word of Brandon...

chasmfriend's son: Is there a finite amount of Investiture?

Brandon: Yes.

chasmfriend's son: So is Nightblood consuming it?

Brandon: Yes. Very, very slowly.

This worries me somewhat because of the following observation.

Nightblood consumes Breath (and other Investiture, but let's limit ourselves to Breath for a second).

Every person on Nalthis is born with one Breath.

Populations tend to grow. Which means that under normal rules of demographics, population of Nalthis should keep increasing.

This in turn means that under normal circumstances the number of people with Breath on Nalthis should be growing.

I can see the following possible explanations to this:

1. Endowment can give Breath to many more people than are currently living on Nalthis. So, the exponential population growth has not yet reached the level at which Endowment's ability to award a Breath to each Nalthis-born human is seriously challenged. When it happens though, things will not go well.

2. There is some built-in mechanism controlling population growth on Nalthis, making certain that the population stays within the limits. Nightblood's consumption of Breath makes these limits smaller, and overall may lead to Endowment's inability to grant Breath to Nalthis-born, but not for a while (essentially, Endowment controls population trends at she sees fit).

Thoughts?

Brandon Sanderson

Just as a point you should understand, the amount of MATTER in the cosmere is finite too. As is the amount of energy.

Worrying that Endowment will run out of Breaths to give is a little like worrying that the amount of carbon on Earth will run out because people keep being born.

uchoo786

So just for clarification, once Nightblood consumes investiture, that investiture gets recycled? That's what I've always assumed. That it enters the cognitive/spiritual realm?

Brandon Sanderson

The investiture he consumes is not gone forever--it's not leaving the system, so to speak.

General Reddit 2015 (Dec. 14, 2015)

 

Yes, the amount of Investiture is finite, technically, but everything is recycled eventually, meaning that Shards will always regain what they use over time.  Also, I'm not sure why you're arguing semantics here.  I've never seen anyone dispute the fact that Shards are gods.  The term "god" is not exclusive to the Hebrew, all powerful and omnipotent depiction.  Shards are immortal beings with the power to create and destroy entire planets.  They are gods.

[Guest Parallax]

On 1/1/2021 at 1:18 PM, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

After reading RoW, I was disappointed by the death of Rayse.  Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Taravangian as the new Odium, and I'm very excited--and very terrified--to see where this will go.  The problem I have is with the utterly pathetic role of Rayse throughout the whole book.  He failed in epic proportion with turning Dalinar in OB and failed to turn Kaladin after.  His forces captured Urithiru and were defeated by basically a single Radiant and Navani.  Then, he entered into a pathetic deal with Dalinar.. This literal god of infinite power has been constantly outmaneuvered and defeated by a few mortals with some Surgebinding abilites. 

This is one of the issues I have with RoW as well. Two additional pieces of information that make Rayse's arc in RoW worse:

1. Hoid calls Rayse "among the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous individuals I had ever met" yet in RoW he comes off as a bumbling buffoon. 

2. The conflict between Rayse the vessel and Odium the shard is not explained beyond the short Sja-Anat interlude. 

[Frustration he/him]

4 minutes ago, Parallax said:

This is one of the issues I have with RoW as well. Two additional pieces of information that make Rayse's arc in RoW worse:

1. Hoid calls Rayse "among the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous individuals I had ever met" yet in RoW he comes off as a bumbling buffoon. 

2. The conflict between Rayse the vessel and Odium the shard is not explained beyond the short Sja-Anat interlude. 

We've known for a long while that vessels and shards fight all the time

[Lunu’anaki he/him]

2 hours ago, Parallax said:

2. The conflict between Rayse the vessel and Odium the shard is not explained beyond the short Sja-Anat interlude. 

I'm not sure that's true... I thought it was mentioned multiple times in RoW and once or twice in Oathbringer as well? I could very well be imagining that though? I know Dalinar was at least realizing that the vessel Rayse could be manipulated since Oathbringer.

I do agree though, It was not clear that Rayse was having a tough time controlling himself until moments before his death, which is weak foreshadowing. (Brandon is literally the master of foreshadowing in every other case though, so I'm very forgiving on this one, even though it is a pretty big deal.)

[mathiau he/him]

On 07/01/2021 at 1:30 AM, Frustration said:

No, the Litteral god is the God Beyond

The question of whether the God Beyond exists will never be answered, probably same for The One.

But I agree, they're not nearly powerful enough for me to call Gods.

Edited January 8, 2021 by mathiau

[StanLemon]

7 hours ago, mathiau said:

But I agree, they're not nearly powerful enough for me to call Gods.

This line is weird to me. They're more powerful than most gods in fiction (not counting omnipotent monotheistic examples). Almost every one of their very few limits is because of the nature of Intent, or another Shard

[mathiau he/him]

Just now, StanLemon said:

This line is weird to me. They're more powerful than most gods in fiction (not counting omnipotent monotheistic examples). Almost every one of their very few limits is because of the nature of Intent, or another Shard

They have not even archived self-control, how could they be worthy of any kind of worship? And yes, most gods in fiction are straight out jokes.