Ba-Ado-Mishram Theory

[Lightwing8888]

So I am listening to the newest Shardcast, and as usual I came up with a new theory.

The latest Shardcast is discussing Ba-Ado-Mishram, and as they were spitballing some things I have come up with a hot take on the origins of this most mysterious Unmade.

So there is some mention in Oathbringer/WoR epigraphs (I believe the Hessi's Mythica sequence) that Ba-Ado-Mishram was "A Highprincess of the enemy forces" and this seems to imply that she was some kind of mortal. Of course, this is in-book research so there can be all kinds of Recreance shenanigans. Later, in RoW, Kalak references a character called Mishram, with a certain amount of familiarity. Also, there is one point in RoW part 2 (maybe, don't have the book on me right now but it's the scene where the Fused and Venli are invading Urithiru) where Rabonial swears by "Ado," which as one Shardcaster pointed out is the first part of the Alethi glyph for light- and also similar to Adonalsium. In addition, and I'm not sure this is relevant, Chaos keeps pointing out that there are not one, but two hyphens in Ba-Ado-Mishram's name, which is unique among the Unmade. Ba-Ado-Mishram has some kind of Connection to the Parsh, Spren, and Roshar as a whole, which is unusual since Adhesion (the Surge of Connection) is called "Honor's purest Surge."

My theory: Ado, the entity that Rabonial refers to, is the Spren of Lights (as in the physical representation of Investiture on Roshar), a being on a level with the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher. Mishram, the person that Kalak refers to, was once a mortal Singer who eventually bonded (in a Bondsmith-like process) with Ado, and then was corrupted/Unmade somehow by Odium, leading to the entity that modern Rosharans refer to as Ba-Ado-Mishram. The "Ba" in this case would mean something along the lines of "both" or "together."

Let me know what ya'll think! I'm pretty new to theory crafting and I'd love to hear any thoughts you guys have on my style.

 

[Halyo_Alex]

I mean, I LIKE IT, and it certainly sounds possible, but I'm not sure how plausible it is. Maybe I'm just being overly critical.

[Lightwing8888]

2 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

I mean, I LIKE IT, and it certainly sounds possible, but I'm not sure how plausible it is. Maybe I'm just being overly critical.

There are certainly a lot of directions Brandon could take B-A-M, so this is just one that I thought was fun and fit to a certain extent. Isn't that all theories are?

[Zpeedish]

This is along the lines of my own theories, so nice to see others thinking along the same lines

This is even more likely (especially the part about ba-ado-mishram being a fusion of a singer and a spren) as B-A-M does seem to have powers on the scale of a powerful Bondsmith. She can create Voidlight, and have some control over Connection.

Also, something in the spiritual realm was clearly messed up by her imprisonment, affecting all spren, even the Sibling. Could the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher also be "handicapped" by the event? And could we possibly see a massive change in their abilities after a possible freeing of B-A-M?

[Szmit]

On 28.12.2020 at 6:39 PM, Lightwing8888 said:

My theory: Ado, the entity that Rabonial refers to, is the Spren of Lights (as in the physical representation of Investiture on Roshar), a being on a level with the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher. Mishram, the person that Kalak refers to, was once a mortal Singer who eventually bonded (in a Bondsmith-like process) with Ado, and then was corrupted/Unmade somehow by Odium, leading to the entity that modern Rosharans refer to as Ba-Ado-Mishram. The "Ba" in this case would mean something along the lines of "both" or "together."

The biggest problem for me is the difference between one entity and two entities. But BAM is old, probably older than Oaths, therefore as unbounded Bondsmith, and a Singer - a being that has a Gemheart, the Mishram(?) might have done something crazy, like increasing their Connection far beyond what is reasonable, and to become in a way Fused with her Spren Ba(?) to become Ba Ado Mishram...

[Lightwing8888]

On 12/30/2020 at 8:05 AM, Szmit said:

The biggest problem for me is the difference between one entity and two entities. But BAM is old, probably older than Oaths, therefore as unbounded Bondsmith, and a Singer - a being that has a Gemheart, the Mishram(?) might have done something crazy, like increasing their Connection far beyond what is reasonable, and to become in a way Fused with her Spren Ba(?) to become Ba Ado Mishram...

I think that's certainly possible, but she doesn't have to have existed for all of the Desolations- with how much confusion happened, it wouldn't surprise me if it was some kind of title. I'm so excited for SLA 5!!!

[kalamitous_emoashions]

I like a lot of this theory. We really don't know the extent of a Bondsmiths power now - as seen with the Ishar scene. 

If Ishar could simply 'take' Dalinar's spiritual connection with the Stormfather. What is the say that Mishram couldn't do something sort of the opposite and completely 'fuse' her spiritual connection with a spren 'Ado'. What that Spren is of, could be investiture, could be connection. 

To work out what this Spren was I think it's important to look at the change in Spren and creation of deadeyes after the recreance. What is it they lost? Was it their connection to Roshar as a whole? Was it their access to investiture? Is it a combination of both? 

Let's also talk about the name: Deadeyes. We have seen time and again that eyes are a window into investiture, especially when corrupted. The fact they have no eyes must be significant. Potentially that they have no access to investiture. Perhaps more nuanced than that - as Spren are beings of investiture - so with no access at all they probably wouldn't exist. Perhaps they lost their connection to Roshar's or specifically one of the shards investitures. 

I'll write my rambings into a coherent new topic eventually - but tell me what you think!

[Darth_Hel]

Was some stuff on another thread about Deadeyes, but I'll write here what I mentioned there. It was pointed out that without gems attached, Shardblades couldn't be unsummoned. So, what they lost might have been attachment to the cognitive realm. Stuck in the physical realm only as a blade. Gems might restore enough of that connection to the cognitive to send them there but not enough for them to fully manifest as they were before, losing their sense of self and most of their consciousness. It would explain how Maya is being healed by Adolin, as the Cognitive is based upon ideas and how intelligent creatures see things. Adolin's sense of Maya as an individual could be restoring that part of her.

[kalamitous_emoashions]

This actually raises an interesting question - what exactly is the function and purpose of gems. How do they work? 

Any WOB's on it? 

[basement_boi]

Here’s a theory: in ancient Egypt, the part of the soul that was the person, the one that passed on in death, was called “ba.” Mishra or misra in Hindi meant mixed. Ado obviously means light in Stormlight. So what if Ba-Ado-Mishram means “soul of mixed light”?

[Lightwing8888]

On 1/1/2021 at 8:13 PM, basement_boi said:

Here’s a theory: in ancient Egypt, the part of the soul that was the person, the one that passed on in death, was called “ba.” Mishra or misra in Hindi meant mixed. Ado obviously means light in Stormlight. So what if Ba-Ado-Mishram means “soul of mixed light”?

OOOOOHHHH I had forgotten the Ba (from when I read the Kane Chronicles)!!! I think that totally supports my theory, and we know that several of the other Unmade names bear resemblance to mythology. This is so cool!!!

[+En-priestess]

When the Sibling refers to being “unmade” by what Raboniel was doing to the tower’s pillar, I kind of got the impression that perhaps all of the Unmade were once the children of Honor and Cultivation like the Sibling - meaning they would have had 10 children (a very Rosharan number)

 

[Allomancer Jak]

On 02/01/2021 at 11:43 AM, basement_boi said:

Here’s a theory: in ancient Egypt, the part of the soul that was the person, the one that passed on in death, was called “ba.” Mishra or misra in Hindi meant mixed. Ado obviously means light in Stormlight. So what if Ba-Ado-Mishram means “soul of mixed light”?

This would go some way to explain why so much of RoW was devoted to Navani exploring (and thus explaining to the reader) the existence of different Lights and the potential of having mixed Light.

 

I think mixed Investiture will have massive implications on Roshar and the Cosmere as a whole and B-A-M would be the prototype of what that would look like....

[Stonerward]

So I've been coming up with a bit of a theory about BAM, it's not fully fleshed out yet and have just posted this in another thread on the RoW General Thoughts forum: 

I believe that before being unmade BAM was the spren of Rhythms for Roshar, she was an older higher spren of Adonalsium existing before Honor & Cultivation arrived on Roshar so she wasn't of either of them but was the same level of spren that the Stormfather / Nightwatcher / Sibling became (can't remember if the Stormfather was around prior to Honor / Cultivation arriving or not)

Once the singers betrayed the radiant spren / went to Odium / Humans went to Honor (whatever that whole situation was) I feel that BAM would have voluntarily gone to Odium to be unmade and follow the singers to Odium as humans can't hear the Rhythms of Roshar she would have felt a closer association with the Singers rather than humans who can't hear the rhythms. 

My theory includes that each spren has their own specific Rhythm which is backed up by the singers being able to be assume their different forms, that changing forms includes a need for the specific spren & also the singer to hold that Rhythm when trying to assume a new form and the intent to assume a new form.

This is how she has been connected to spren & singers, so when she was imprisoned this severed the full connection between the singers and their ability to hear the rhythm's / assume different forms and in the process has severed sprens ability to reconnect to the Rhythms of Roshar which I think would have previously let them fade from the physical realm and reform in Shadesmar but as the connection that BAM has been severed all the deadeyes are stuck between fully leaving the physical realm to be able reconstitute in Shadesmar

[Leuthie]

On 12/28/2020 at 9:39 AM, Lightwing8888 said:

So I am listening to the newest Shardcast, and as usual I came up with a new theory.

The latest Shardcast is discussing Ba-Ado-Mishram, and as they were spitballing some things I have come up with a hot take on the origins of this most mysterious Unmade.

So there is some mention in Oathbringer/WoR epigraphs (I believe the Hessi's Mythica sequence) that Ba-Ado-Mishram was "A Highprincess of the enemy forces" and this seems to imply that she was some kind of mortal. Of course, this is in-book research so there can be all kinds of Recreance shenanigans. Later, in RoW, Kalak references a character called Mishram, with a certain amount of familiarity. Also, there is one point in RoW part 2 (maybe, don't have the book on me right now but it's the scene where the Fused and Venli are invading Urithiru) where Rabonial swears by "Ado," which as one Shardcaster pointed out is the first part of the Alethi glyph for light- and also similar to Adonalsium. In addition, and I'm not sure this is relevant, Chaos keeps pointing out that there are not one, but two hyphens in Ba-Ado-Mishram's name, which is unique among the Unmade. Ba-Ado-Mishram has some kind of Connection to the Parsh, Spren, and Roshar as a whole, which is unusual since Adhesion (the Surge of Connection) is called "Honor's purest Surge."

My theory: Ado, the entity that Rabonial refers to, is the Spren of Lights (as in the physical representation of Investiture on Roshar), a being on a level with the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher. Mishram, the person that Kalak refers to, was once a mortal Singer who eventually bonded (in a Bondsmith-like process) with Ado, and then was corrupted/Unmade somehow by Odium, leading to the entity that modern Rosharans refer to as Ba-Ado-Mishram. The "Ba" in this case would mean something along the lines of "both" or "together."

Let me know what ya'll think! I'm pretty new to theory crafting and I'd love to hear any thoughts you guys have on my style.

 

I've been knocking around in my head that Mishram was the third Bondsmith spren and Nightwatcher is a red herring.

• Nightwatcher has been described in WoB as a parallel to Stormfather, but the only detail given in that parallel deals with her being a splinter of Cultivation as Stormfather is a splinter of Honor. That doesn't mean Nightwatcher has ever been a bondsmith spren.
• There were only 2 Bondsmiths described in the gem archives and other sources. We know Stormfather has been a bondsmith spren before. We know the Sibling has been a bondsmith spren before. We have never seen the 3rd anywhere.
• Midnight Mother was captured in a gem at some point. This was most likely prior to BAM being captured, seeing as the capture of BAM led precipitously toward the Recreance.
• The gem archive discussions involving the capture of BAM made it sound like a radical idea. If Ra-Shepnir had been captured before, why would capturing another Unmade be considered a radical idea?
• And the bolded statement above: Connection powers are the domain of Honor to the point where the Fused don't believe such surges exist. If BAM was manipulating Connections, they had to have been connected (little c) to Honor in some way.
• Raboniel was very confident about what she was doing to the Sibling. The Sibling was also very confident about what was happening to her. This implies previous experience.

So I contend that the Sibling wasn't the first bondsmith spren upon which an attempt to unmake was attempted. Ba-Ado-Mishram was once Mishram, the bondsmith spren, who was Unmade or otherwise corrupted to create Connections to Odium.

[TheRealAdaam]

8 hours ago, Leuthie said:

I've been knocking around in my head that Mishram was the third Bondsmith spren and Nightwatcher is a red herring.

• Nightwatcher has been described in WoB as a parallel to Stormfather, but the only detail given in that parallel deals with her being a splinter of Cultivation as Stormfather is a splinter of Honor. That doesn't mean Nightwatcher has ever been a bondsmith spren.
• There were only 2 Bondsmiths described in the gem archives and other sources. We know Stormfather has been a bondsmith spren before. We know the Sibling has been a bondsmith spren before. We have never seen the 3rd anywhere.
• Midnight Mother was captured in a gem at some point. This was most likely prior to BAM being captured, seeing as the capture of BAM led precipitously toward the Recreance.
• The gem archive discussions involving the capture of BAM made it sound like a radical idea. If Ra-Shepnir had been captured before, why would capturing another Unmade be considered a radical idea?
• And the bolded statement above: Connection powers are the domain of Honor to the point where the Fused don't believe such surges exist. If BAM was manipulating Connections, they had to have been connected (little c) to Honor in some way.
• Raboniel was very confident about what she was doing to the Sibling. The Sibling was also very confident about what was happening to her. This implies previous experience.

So I contend that the Sibling wasn't the first bondsmith spren upon which an attempt to unmake was attempted. Ba-Ado-Mishram was once Mishram, the bondsmith spren, who was Unmade or otherwise corrupted to create Connections to Odium.

I love this.

 

I don't think that Nightwatcher is a red herring because Dalinar said this in RoW chapter 116:

"... Apparently, his Bondsmith and the Nightwather's Bondsmith sometimes had relationships..."

So it seems the Nightwatcher is locked in, but the WoB only says there was three Bondsmiths at a time, historically. That does not mean there wasn't a fourth able to bond. Perhaps this was because Mishram wouldn't bond with the humans.

[Bremen]

13 hours ago, Stonerward said:

she was an older higher spren of Adonalsium existing before Honor & Cultivation arrived on Roshar

YES! I am unreasonably convinced that most/all of the Unmade were spren created by Adonalsium at the creation of Roshar. My theory was that BAM is the spren of nahel bonds, the shardcast has mentioned her being the spren of spren. Regardless of what exactly she is the spren of, I expect it will be relevant in why deadeyes occur, Singers were lobotomized, and the change in Chasmfiend behavior.

As for the Stormfather, we do know the Highstorm existed before Honor/Cultivation arrived (it did not dump stormlight at the time). Brandon has RAFO'd whether the Stormfather also predates their arrival though I see no reason why he wouldn't though. The real question is the Sibling, did H&C transform an existing spren of rock and stone (the spren of Ur maybe?), or create a totally new spren? Functionally it probably doesn't matter, but I want to know

[Cambotb]

Just had a thought come to me while re-listening to WoK: What if Cusicesh in Interlude 5 is formed by B-A-M’s imprisonment? The way it faces the origin and shifts through faces for ten minutes indicates a connection to all of Roshar, and Axies indicates that it is unlike any other “spren” on Roshar.

Oh right, and it leaves everyone feeling drained. Like a (very minor) reflection of the damage done when she was imprisoned.

Obviously not a fully fleshed-out theory, but I’m interested if anyone else sees other connections.

 

[IAmTheStick]

I point you all to this excerpt of RoW: (heavily paraphrased)

Ulim: They were strong, yadda yadda

Venli: How'd we lose, then???

Ulim: Couldn't break the last herald, we got stuck on Braize. Unmade decided to fight alone. BAM decided to try and grant forms of power, giving out too many, connecting herself to the whole singer species. Became a little god. Too little. 

Venli: ...wat

Ulim: People relied on BAM too much, who got imprisoned in a gem- everyone's [singers?] soul got messed up. To restore the singers' minds, we'll get a buncha stormforms and pull a storm from shadesmar. 

 

So obviously BAM got too deeply connected to things (likely over the course of years) and every singer BAM connected to was unable to hear the rhythms after they were captured. This also affected the spren somehow, which is not explained in the part I'm looking at. To me, this indicates that BAM is related to investiture somehow-- all three types, or possibly just honor's and cultivation's. So the spren of lights seems like a good bet to me. And what BAM did in becoming such a fundamental part of roshar seems very familiar to what odium has done. Not necessarily manipulating connection to become a part of the planet, but slowly permeating it, until the two are inextricably linked.

On 1/1/2021 at 6:13 PM, basement_boi said:

Here’s a theory: in ancient Egypt, the part of the soul that was the person, the one that passed on in death, was called “ba.” Mishra or misra in Hindi meant mixed. Ado obviously means light in Stormlight. So what if Ba-Ado-Mishram means “soul of mixed light”?

:0 If this is the case, maybe renarin, venli, and lift will be related to ba-ado-mishram. We have honor/odium, odium/honor, and honor/cultivation... They'll obviously play a big role in the story, as it seems they're all outliers in the history of roshar. Also, as more spren get corrupted, the nightwatcher will become more strongly connected to... radiants?

[Quick Ben]

On 1/4/2021 at 5:30 PM, Leuthie said:

I've been knocking around in my head that Mishram was the third Bondsmith spren and Nightwatcher is a red herring.

• Nightwatcher has been described in WoB as a parallel to Stormfather, but the only detail given in that parallel deals with her being a splinter of Cultivation as Stormfather is a splinter of Honor. That doesn't mean Nightwatcher has ever been a bondsmith spren.
• There were only 2 Bondsmiths described in the gem archives and other sources. We know Stormfather has been a bondsmith spren before. We know the Sibling has been a bondsmith spren before. We have never seen the 3rd anywhere.
• Midnight Mother was captured in a gem at some point. This was most likely prior to BAM being captured, seeing as the capture of BAM led precipitously toward the Recreance.
• The gem archive discussions involving the capture of BAM made it sound like a radical idea. If Ra-Shepnir had been captured before, why would capturing another Unmade be considered a radical idea?
• And the bolded statement above: Connection powers are the domain of Honor to the point where the Fused don't believe such surges exist. If BAM was manipulating Connections, they had to have been connected (little c) to Honor in some way.
• Raboniel was very confident about what she was doing to the Sibling. The Sibling was also very confident about what was happening to her. This implies previous experience.

So I contend that the Sibling wasn't the first bondsmith spren upon which an attempt to unmake was attempted. Ba-Ado-Mishram was once Mishram, the bondsmith spren, who was Unmade or otherwise corrupted to create Connections to Odium.

I have the same theory-ish, posted it in other threads,

But mine slightly varies as inni don't think the nightwatcher is a red herring, i just think the original bondsmith spren was BAM, who was unmade and that the nightwatcher is a relatively new bondsmith spren

[mathiau]

On 04/01/2021 at 6:30 PM, Leuthie said:

I've been knocking around in my head that Mishram was the third Bondsmith spren and Nightwatcher is a red herring.

RoW chapter 116

Quote

“The Stormfather doesn’t know what to make of this,” Dalinar said. “I think he finds it strange. Apparently, his Bondsmith and the Nightwatcher’s Bondsmith sometimes had relationships, but the Sibling’s Bondsmith was always apart.”.

Quote

So I contend that the Sibling wasn't the first bondsmith spren upon which an attempt to unmake was attempted. Ba-Ado-Mishram was once Mishram, the bondsmith spren, who was Unmade or otherwise corrupted to create Connections to Odium.

On the other hand this is completely possible but it'd mean the Nightwatcher only started bounding people/was created after Mishram was Unmade

[Waffles]

Wouldnt this mean BAM is more similar to a fused and is a bit more than an unmade?

[Lightwing8888]

On 4/7/2021 at 0:37 PM, Waffles said:

Wouldnt this mean BAM is more similar to a fused and is a bit more than an unmade?

I think the same- or at least similar- process goes into both the Fused and the Unmade, but if my theory is accurate, then yes, it would mean BAM was more than either of them; a hybrid of some kind kinda like a Bondsmith-singer-Unmade combination thingy- it would be weird. But considering how much Odium wanted Dalinar on his side, it wouldn't surprise me to know that he had tried something similar with a past Bondsmith.