Space-Age Hemalurgy

[danex]

I was just thinking about what Era 4* might look like, and I think one of the things I’m most excited to see is Space-Age Hemalurgy. Hemalurgy is naturally a very crude art. We have these huge metal spikes, it’s a super bloody process, not efficient at all, and honestly, that makes me really excited for how it’ll evolve. I think that the only reason Hemalurgy is as crude as it is, is so that Brandon can swoop in and make it all super scientific in Era 4. It’s the natural evolution of the art. I’m imagining things like needles instead of spikes, lots more hemalurgic constructs, more efficient ways of investiture transferring, using compunders to have infinite spike factories with no death required. 

I just think that there’s a ton about Hemalurgy we don’t know yet. It’s still very poorly defined, I wouldn’t be surprised if we get a ton of reveals about it. Like, compare what we knew about allomancy in Era 1 Book 1 to what we know now in the most recent book. We know about 7 more base metals, a new god metal, and we know that there are theoretically dozens of possible god-metal alloys. The number of viable allomantic metals went from 10 to more than we can count. I expect we’ll see this sort of insane knowledge boom with Hemalurgy too. 

What do you guys think Hemalurgy will look like in the space age?

*Era 4 is space right? 2 is W&W, 3 is 1980s Cold War, and then 4 is space? 

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

I think that the only reason Hemalurgy is as crude as it is, is so that Brandon can swoop in and make it all super scientific in Era 4.

Era 4 is way too late. In fact they have the tools already in Era 2, as they have statistics and all the metals. You could do large scale animal experimentation and do good statistics.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

What do you guys think Hemalurgy will look like in the space age?

It depends on a number of unknown and undecided factors.

• can you make artificial spikes?
• can you actually measure a spirit web and see what you are doing?

[Knight of Iron]

3 hours ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

 

Hemalurgic spike guns are already a thing in Era 2, apparently. And Brandon has said that spikes encased in aluminum would stop losing out on the power, and so they could be held for longer. These advancements could go somewhere like that.

Best thing about Hemalurgy is anyone can use it with Intent--and so every non-magic person now has a means by which they obtain powers. I feel like it's going to become common knowledge at some point. What would it look like as a Misting or a Ferring knowing anyone on the streets could just pull out a spike gun and steal your powers?

[Quantus]

Pretty sure by the time it gets to Era4, when they will have had contact with most if not all the other planets/cultures, Hemalurgy is going to be viewed as Spiritual Surgery.  It will be a scientific pursuit, one that is seen as distasteful when practiced (who actually enjoys those surgery documentaries?) but is considered a benevolent and beneficial practice in general, even if Frankenstein tales exist. 

Socially, I could also easily see Hemalurgy being used to facilitate a Magical Inheritance tradition, with dying members choosing to willingly spike out whatever trait they value in themselves and want to pass on (since lots of things cannot be passed via medallions).  

And practically, I expect Spikes of Aluminum to be the main way to incarcerate Powered individuals. 

Beyond that I could see a gross blackmarket for "spirit-mods", with spikes being seen as the violent but "cheap" alternative to the Medallion hoards the aristocratic families have amassed.  

[StanLemon]

While crude as it is currently. I'm also excited because Hemalurgy to me seems on par with AonDor in the level of complexity it could potentially reach 

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

On 12/9/2020 at 11:43 AM, Quantus said:

And practically, I expect Spikes of Aluminum to be the main way to incarcerate Powered individuals. 

 

I'm very confused about how aluminum spikes work honestly. It seems like there are easier ways to incapacitate someone if you're already stabbing them. And it's not even really a pacifist option since I think you'd need to kill someone to get it active

[Quantus]

6 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

I'm very confused about how aluminum spikes work honestly. It seems like there are easier ways to incapacitate someone if you're already stabbing them. And it's not even really a pacifist option since I think you'd need to kill someone to get it active

An Aluminum Spike, when planted with Intent in a Hemalurgic Binding Point, will "Remove all Powers".  This means that in theory any Misting, Ferring, Twinborn, Spike-fiend, etc could in theory have all their supernatural powers Removed/Suppressed with an Aluminum Earring, which I imagine would become standard issue in scadiral's version of a Supermax Prison.  

[Raven Wilder]

Even with tons of refinement and scientific advancement, I'm not sure how you get past the "removes part of your soul" aspect of Hemalurgy. Even if you find a way to make Hemalurgic spikes without killing people, the best case scenario would still be something like the system on Nalthis, where thousands live as Drabs so a privileged few can be ultra-powerful ... except since there's no requirement for a Hemalurgic "donor" to be willing, it would be so much easier to abuse.

I'd say widespread knowledge of Hemalurgy is one of the most frightening things that could happen to the Cosmere, since it gives people with no regard for the rights of others an incredible advantage over everyone else. Imagine what Straff Venture or Torol Sadeas would do with that power. Or, heck, imagine if in our world, every human sacrifice performed by the Aztecs, or every "undesirable" killed by the Nazis, was used to create a Hemalurgic spike that went towards empowering their soldiers?

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 12/11/2020 at 4:23 PM, Raven Wilder said:

Even with tons of refinement and scientific advancement, I'm not sure how you get past the "removes part of your soul" aspect of Hemalurgy. Even if you find a way to make Hemalurgic spikes without killing people, the best case scenario would still be something like the system on Nalthis, where thousands live as Drabs so a privileged few can be ultra-powerful ... except since there's no requirement for a Hemalurgic "donor" to be willing, it would be so much easier to abuse.

I'd say widespread knowledge of Hemalurgy is one of the most frightening things that could happen to the Cosmere, since it gives people with no regard for the rights of others an incredible advantage over everyone else. Imagine what Straff Venture or Torol Sadeas would do with that power. Or, heck, imagine if in our world, every human sacrifice performed by the Aztecs, or every "undesirable" killed by the Nazis, was used to create a Hemalurgic spike that went towards empowering their soldiers?

It depends on your opinion of the soul. I could easily see some people believing that the Spike allows part of their soul to live on post-Mortem.

One interesting element to this is that the Survivorist church will not come out directly against hemalurgy, due to the Survivor having a Spike through his eye! That’s actually rather important, since views of the soul tend to be influenced by major religious bodies.

[danex]

1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

One interesting element to this is that the Survivorist church will not come out directly against hemalurgy, due to the Survivor having a Spike through his eye! That’s actually rather important, since views of the soul tend to be influenced by major religious bodies.

Do the surviorists picture Kelsier with one eye spiked? I agree that he does in fact have a spiked eye, but do the survivorists know that he does? Is that how he is depicted in their religion?

[Kingsdaughter613]

Just now, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

Do the surviorists picture Kelsier with one eye spiked? I agree that he does in fact have a spiked eye, but do the survivorists know that he does? Is that how he is depicted in their religion?

They don’t currently know, but hemalurgy is basically unknown right now too. Once North and South get to no each other better they will find out. At which point the religion goes through a theological crisis, and it gets folded in.

I’d assume it’s common knowledge by the space age.

[Raven Wilder]

There are legends about "Iron Eyes" (a.k.a. Marsh), who seems to be sort of a Grim Reaper figure. The Southern Scadrians' depictions of Kelsier are likely to become confused with him.

[Kingsdaughter613]

2 hours ago, Raven Wilder said:

There are legends about "Iron Eyes" (a.k.a. Marsh), who seems to be sort of a Grim Reaper figure. The Southern Scadrians' depictions of Kelsier are likely to become confused with him.

Kell’s scars are usually the giveaway though. And he left those Copperminds behind.

I think there may end up being a splintering in his Church, resulting in multiple denominations. Some may conflate the Sovereign with Ironeyes, but I think Kelsier left enough evidence behind that most will end up accepting that the Sovereign and Survivor are one and the same. For one, I’d be surprised if the South didn’t know his name.

[StarrFall]

On 12/9/2020 at 10:43 AM, Quantus said:

Socially, I could also easily see Hemalurgy being used to facilitate a Magical Inheritance tradition, with dying members choosing to willingly spike out whatever trait they value in themselves and want to pass on (since lots of things cannot be passed via medallions).  

This has crossed my mind multiple times and it made me wonder if long lineages with one hereditarily-prevalent power could amass an enormous amount of potential ability with that power within a single spike; has it been discussed whether one can use the same spike to spike out the same trait from multiple sources and stack/increase the ability that can be passed on via the spike by doing so?

Edited December 15, 2020 by StarrFall

[Quantus]

16 hours ago, StarrFall said:

This has crossed my mind multiple times and it made me wonder if long lineages with one hereditarily-prevalent power could amass an enormous amount of potential ability with that power within a single spike; has it been discussed whether one can use the same spike to spike out the same trait from multiple sources and stack/increase the ability that can be passed on via the spike by doing so?

Indeed I think they could, up to a point at least. As far as I know you cannot Re-Charge a spike or otherwise ReUse/ReInvest a Spike, so they'd still be one Spike per Donor.  And there is a practical limit to number of spikes that any single person can have before their spirit frays and needs a Linchpin spike like the Inquisitors.  However a large family could collect enough that every member has a couple spike multipliers, making quite a reputation all on it's own.  

But personally I think people tend to wildly underestimate the other, non-Magic traits that Hemalurgy can steal (and thus multiply).  Imagine the business Empire that could be built by a clan that had accumulated all it's Ancestors'  "mental fortitude, memory, and intelligence" in a collection of Copper Spikes!  Or the Juggernaut tribe were every member has the Physical Strength of Four because they all get Iron Spikes (the Koloss tribes are quite disdainful of these "pretty-boys", I would assume)

[Raven Wilder]

Spikes that grant physical or mental abilities are more likely to twist you into something inhuman than ones that grant magical abilities; most people are going to be wary of that sort of drawback.

[StarrFall]

On 12/16/2020 at 8:33 AM, Quantus said:

But personally I think people tend to wildly underestimate the other, non-Magic traits that Hemalurgy can steal (and thus multiply).  Imagine the business Empire that could be built by a clan that had accumulated...

This could take a lot of forms. Herding families could amass spikes with various animal traits and create an ever increasing super-charged heard of work/defense animals. Or straight go into the custom monster building business. 

[Quantus]

14 hours ago, StarrFall said:

This could take a lot of forms. Herding families could amass spikes with various animal traits and create an ever increasing super-charged heard of work/defense animals. Or straight go into the custom monster building business. 

Very true.  In the latter case it would be pretty difficult, the Lord Ruler only ever managed to invent three Hemalurgic creatures, and he'd Ascended once.  One the other hand, working with animals removes most of the cultural limitations on experimentation (as compared to humans), so it could happen.   

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

One the other hand, working with animals removes most of the cultural limitations on experimentation (as compared to humans), so it could happen.   

How limited was the lord ruler though? I can’t imagine much

[Quantus]

14 minutes ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

How limited was the lord ruler though? I can’t imagine much

For him there would be more practical limitations in terms of how many people he could reasonably Breed and Disappear in a given timeframe.  At least compared to the sort of experimental churn you could do if there was a hemalurgy experiment performed on every single cow and pig slaughtered in an industrialized meat industry, where it's on the order of hundreds or more per day.