What was Renarin trying to get T to do?

[StormingTexan he/him]

It is pretty clear to me I need to do a re-read . I accidentally spoiled my self coming here to post a reaction to part 3 and saw some thread titles about T so I kind of rushed through the last (and best) parts of the book. I have however re-read the scene where Taravangian ascends  and I thought I understood what Renarin was trying to get him to do with the note and the spheres. Then I heard it mentioned on one of the Shardcast that T did not do what he wanted him to do so I am confused. He ends up breaking the spheres and I though that was what helped summon Odium but maybe I missed something?

[earthexile]

I think Renarin saw that Taravangian could become Odium, and set him up to do so. Cultivation seems to agree that it was the best move. It seems like anyone with knowledge of the future would rather deal with Tarvangian-as-Odium than Rayse-as-Odium, which makes sense when we consider the sorry shape Rayse seemed to be in in RoW. Instead of a shell of a man shaped over seven thousand years into an avatar of pure hate, we now have an Odium somewhat reined in by the will of a man who wants to save the world.

[StormingTexan he/him]

26 minutes ago, earthexile said:

I think Renarin saw that Taravangian could become Odium, and set him up to do so. Cultivation seems to agree that it was the best move. It seems like anyone with knowledge of the future would rather deal with Tarvangian-as-Odium than Rayse-as-Odium, which makes sense when we consider the sorry shape Rayse seemed to be in in RoW. Instead of a shell of a man shaped over seven thousand years into an avatar of pure hate, we now have an Odium somewhat reined in by the will of a man who wants to save the world.

So this was my take on it initially as well. The "I'm Sorry" note from Renarian for setting him up. Maybe I misheard on the podcast but I thought it was mentioned that Taravangian did not do what Renarian wanted which confused me as to what he did want him to do. 

[Govir]

1 hour ago, earthexile said:

I think Renarin saw that Taravangian could become Odium, and set him up to do so. Cultivation seems to agree that it was the best move. It seems like anyone with knowledge of the future would rather deal with Tarvangian-as-Odium than Rayse-as-Odium, which makes sense when we consider the sorry shape Rayse seemed to be in in RoW. Instead of a shell of a man shaped over seven thousand years into an avatar of pure hate, we now have an Odium somewhat reined in by the will of a man who wants to save the world.

I think Cultivation *thinks* Taravangian-as-Odium is going to be better, but I don't think that's going to be the case. We've already seen one of her gambles pay off (Dalinar), I think this is one of her gambles we will see not pay off. And then Lift is the backup plan for bad guy Tod (somehow).

[Harfyn]

Sja-Anat tells Odium she will give him the corrupted spren to signal Odium, and Renarin drops off the gemstones for her. I think that the "I'm sorry" could be because Renarin thought that drawing Odium's attention would get Taravangian killed... But it would also make sense for Renarin and Sja-Anat to have known what was going to happen and Renarin was apologizing for Leading T to take up such a hateful shard?

Also - I do think that Taravangian will be better on some level because Rayse was about to be consumed by the power fully - Cultivation wanted to avoid Odium running rampant, a shard without a vessel would have been worse than a vessel that Cultivation already knows/understands.

[StormingTexan he/him]

27 minutes ago, Harfyn said:

Sja-Anat tells Odium she will give him the corrupted spren to signal Odium, and Renarin drops off the gemstones for her.

Ah ok that makes a lot of sense thank you! 

[Aminar]

I think it was Renarin's plan. It seems like a very Dr. Strange time stone deal and that people are over-reacting to Taravangian's ascension. I think he'll be set aside pretty quick and book 5 will have a different conflict, likely centered around Uniting the Listeners and Humans. We're getting an Age of Legends within the lifetime of many of these characters and I don't see genocide/war being the way that happens. Which means we need a new problem, not the old problem(Odium). 

Edited December 2, 2020 by Aminar

[teknopathetic he/him]

I thought the note just meant "I am sorry you chose the way you did". Maybe if T took Renarin's hand he would have been purified similar to what Renarin did in part 1 with Moash and Khaladin. 

[Karger he/him]

The boring answer is that Renarin saw T's death and was basically saying "you had your chance."  The "problem" with being able to see "the" future is deciding how to act based on that knowledge.  Renarin had to make a choice and chose to let Szeth enter without intervening.  How much more he knew is up to debate.

[Song she/her]

On 03/12/2020 at 6:54 AM, teknopathetic said:

I thought the note just meant "I am sorry you chose the way you did". Maybe if T took Renarin's hand he would have been purified similar to what Renarin did in part 1 with Moash and Khaladin. 

Yes. I agree. I think Renarin saw one option of light and gave T the chance to be better and he didn't take it. So Renarin had to go with plan B which might be better in the long run but sucks for T.

[Govir]

On 12/2/2020 at 2:09 PM, Aminar said:

I think it was Renarin's plan. It seems like a very Dr. Strange time stone deal and that people are over-reacting to Taravangian's ascension. I think he'll be set aside pretty quick and book 5 will have a different conflict, likely centered around Uniting the Listeners and Humans. We're getting an Age of Legends within the lifetime of many of these characters and I don't see genocide/war being the way that happens. Which means we need a new problem, not the old problem(Odium). 

It seems like Taravangian ascending was part of Cultivation’s plan, but I do think you’re right about the time stone similarities. Except I this case, there probably won’t be any time travel shenanigans taking place. (I love me some time travel, but at this point it would be really odd in the Cosmere...although if you can see glimpses of the future in the Spiritual Realm, I guess you should be able to look back as well. Which can also open a narrative explanation for time travel...)

[Rockbud he/him]

It could also be that the shard would have been picked up by another person if T hadn't done so at this point, and that T was perferable.

[kaellok he/him]

On 12/2/2020 at 8:52 AM, earthexile said:

we now have an Odium somewhat reined in by the will of a man who wants to save the world.

Just want to point out that Mr T was not concerned with saving the world, but rather ensuring that humanity survived.  Assimilating the knowledge that he has after Ascending to Odium, his definition of 'human' may have shifted.  Does he consider those on Roshar to be human?  What about Scadrial?  Nalthis? 

As a mortal with large influence, a limited guide to the future, and limited power, he managed to do incredible harm.  I'm incredibly skeptical that giving him more influence, more future-sight, and more power will suddenly make him less destructive--especially given the sense of a Cosmere-wide conflict we're given in RoW.  Even if he become 100% benign to everyone living on Roshar, the nature of the man and the Shard make deadly interference in the Cosmere as a whole very likely to continue unchecked.  (And those actions could easily draw the Rosharans into such conflict, as it seemed was Rayse's desire anyway.)

[Mason Wheeler]

A bunch of people are saying Taravodium will be somehow less bad than Rayse.  I don't agree.  You don't cast a character in the role of Satan if they're intended to be a good influence on the world.  Not to mention the foreshadowing we got from this book's Letter, where Sazed says that having Rayse get replaced by someone who the power is a better fit for would be the worst-case scenario!

[Song she/her]

6 hours ago, Mason Wheeler said:

A bunch of people are saying Taravodium will be somehow less bad than Rayse.  I don't agree.  You don't cast a character in the role of Satan if they're intended to be a good influence on the world.  Not to mention the foreshadowing we got from this book's Letter, where Sazed says that having Rayse get replaced by someone who the power is a better fit for would be the worst-case scenario!

Yes, and specifically that a crafty vessel is worst case scenario.

[Thorn]

7 hours ago, Mason Wheeler said:

A bunch of people are saying Taravodium will be somehow less bad than Rayse.  I don't agree.  You don't cast a character in the role of Satan if they're intended to be a good influence on the world.  Not to mention the foreshadowing we got from this book's Letter, where Sazed says that having Rayse get replaced by someone who the power is a better fit for would be the worst-case scenario!

 

48 minutes ago, Song said:

Yes, and specifically that a crafty vessel is worst case scenario.

I concur.  If he were actually out to save humanity (or the cosmere), he'd lose against Dalinar and consign himself for 1000 years, bound to the system.  He would know his Shard is the most dangerous threat to the cosmere and even his own people, and immediately constrain his pride and the Shard.  Instead he's calling the other Vessels fools, and plotting how to rule it all.  

I think Renarin, certainly new the possibility with Szeth coming, Sja-anat involved, as he delivered gems that T would ascend.  T is certainly a smarter, more prideful Vessel and therefore far more capable than a withering Rayse.  But his pride is also his downfall, and is more likely to give Dalinar an eventual victory. 

Speaking of which, longterm I wouldn't be surprised if Dalinar ends up with the Odium Shard, as the only one who can temper the "Thrill"/Passions. 

I don't think we pay enough attention to Cultivation though either.  Can she not "cultivate" evil as much as good? Or has Sanderson defined her strictly toward life/good? 

I think she knows exactly what she intended when T ascends and what he'd be capable of.  So what is she plotting? 

[+Harrycrapper]

On 12/5/2020 at 5:42 AM, Govir said:

It seems like Taravangian ascending was part of Cultivation’s plan, but I do think you’re right about the time stone similarities. Except I this case, there probably won’t be any time travel shenanigans taking place. (I love me some time travel, but at this point it would be really odd in the Cosmere...although if you can see glimpses of the future in the Spiritual Realm, I guess you should be able to look back as well. Which can also open a narrative explanation for time travel...)

Given the importance of Nightblood to the plan, one has to wonder how involved Endowment was in this.

[Mason Wheeler]

4 minutes ago, Thorn said:

I don't think we pay enough attention to Cultivation though either.  Can she not "cultivate" evil as much as good? Or has Sanderson defined her strictly toward life/good?

 

"I control all things that can be grown, nurtured.  That includes the thorns."

The various Intents appear to be without inherent moral value.  The "good god" Preservation expressed his admiration for how well the Lord Ruler had been preserved and lived for so long, caring more for this than for his centuries of atrocities, while the "evil" Ruin was necessary to enable Preservation create life.  Likewise, Taravangian managed to pick up the shard of Odium by being strongly in tune with it when he was at his most compassionate, and the power of Honor that remains in the Stormfather blinds him to the possibility of it being wrong to keep bad promises.  (No such thing as a bad oath?  Yeaaaaahhh, no.)

All of the Shards seem to be unbalanced in some way or another.  Some of their Intents are more noble than others, but even the best traits, taken to extremes, become harmful.