Harfyn

I think one of her ideals will be "I will bring order from chaos" - she said this multiple times throughout the book, it seems to be a major driver for her character, and it has the feel of a radiant oath to me. I also like the idea of her parallelling Dalinar's "I will bring men together" with "I will bring humans and spren together" or something in that vein.

Also - have we ever seen a full mistborn actually using all 16 metals? I think a radiant might be pulling ahead right now, but that's without knowing exactly how powerful the other metals can make a full mistborn. I think a full mistborn might have issues actually killing a radiant especially if living plate could block investiture draining, mostly because of how quickly radiants can heal and how much the plate blocks what a mistborn can do. (Does emotional allomancy work through plate? Can plate be pushed/pulled? I assume no because its too heavily invested)

Sja-Anat tells Odium she will give him the corrupted spren to signal Odium, and Renarin drops off the gemstones for her. I think that the "I'm sorry" could be because Renarin thought that drawing Odium's attention would get Taravangian killed... But it would also make sense for Renarin and Sja-Anat to have known what was going to happen and Renarin was apologizing for Leading T to take up such a hateful shard? Also - I do think that Taravangian will be better on some level because Rayse was about to be consumed by the power fully - Cultivation wanted to avoid Odium running rampant, a shard without a vessel would have been worse than a vessel that Cultivation already knows/understands.

Might also just be that the light isn't only emitting what is visible to human eyes - other shards could go further out of the visible light spectrum than hyperviolet. I'd also agree with some others saying that it's unlikely Ruin and Preservation are each other's anti-lights. I think they are maybe as close as a shard could be to having that, though - like each of them might have a rhythm that is very close to the other's anti-rhythm/frequency/wavelength. What Vin is doing seems to me what almost any shard-attack would look like - each shard is "equal" and infinite, so a direct attack will cause annihilation of both. (though, that idea makes me wonder how odium splintered Aona + Skai 1 vs 2)

I really like the idea that BAM was the "spren of spren" before Odium arrived and unmade them. Some other interesting notes - the Sibling told ... someone (probably Navani but I cant find the quote) that they had pulled away from their bond right before/in the events leading up to the recreance - so they noticed what the radiants were planning and prepared by ending their bond before ending the bond would cause dead-eye-ness. Timeline: - A long long time ago, BAM is unmade by odium (maybe when he first arrives on Roshar/creates the fused? I wonder if this happens before or after spren originally left the singers I could see the unmaking being the thing that causes spren to leave the singers in the first place, but the timeline gets funky in the heraldic days) - BAM figures out how to offer forms + voidlight to singers, starts false desolation - Radiants start planning assault on BAM - Sibling ends bond with Melishi, tower starts functioning worse and worse - Melishi takes a Dawnshard ("Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.") and a perfect gem to wherever BAM was, and imprisons them. Important note also - "the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece" sounds a lot like a description of Urithiru in physical or cognitive realm. (map of Shadesmar calls cog-Urithiru "Nohadon's Stairways") - Recreance happens/Honor dies/Deadeyes ARE Is this even right? The last step is definitely the muddiest - did imprisoning BAM lead to Honor dying? Or did the Recreance lead to honor dying? OR is his death the reason these things were able to happen? Was the Dawnshard involved in his 'death' or just BAM's imprisonment?

Oh that'd be very cool - which... makes me curious if the hybrid lights will cause different effects in the surges that use them... or if they just have different physical/spiritual properties that determine WHO can use them. It might make sense to use voidlight/warlight for anyone who can use it since it leaks slower than stormlight, but only if your surge doesn't also work differently. (though maybe you want to avoid having the emotional effects of voidlight?)

Oh yeah Riah is almost certainly a deadeye - but I wonder what would happen if Leshwi found the blade or went into Shadesmar to see the body. I feel like they'd have a fairly strong connection to start the same process Maya is currently undergoing with Adolin. Which, admittedly is completely new and I don't know if Leshwi and Riah would qualify, but would be cool to see. A lot of what happens after that will depend on things that will probably get explored in the next book with both Adolin and Shallan being very connected to deadeyes (for different reasons).

Good call - I like the idea of there having been a pre-nahel bond between dawnsingers and spren - Maybe this was what the Radiant oaths were modeled after? (or maybe they are more of a modification - oaths have more safeties in place to prevent "the bad surgebinding thing" from happening) Re: Leshwi having access to Odium's investiture, I think Brandon has confirmed via WOB that a shard can't choose to turn off their magic system for a particular person - its a law of nature at that point. So I think Leshwi would need to do something that would put her more in his power to actually be affected. Like once she dies, he will have power over her again, but until then she still has access to any powers she normally would.

A windrunner? So - when Venli tells/shows Leshwi that she is a Radiant, Leshwi asks if she knew an Honorspren. To me, this brought together a lot of why Leshwi was so connected with the Windrunners - its not just that the Heavenly Ones are the most analogous to Windrunners, but that they were ANCIENT Windrunners - before spren chose humans. I think that Leshwi is going to be our key to discovering what the Dawnsingers did to lose sprens' trust. My guess is that there was some... recreance-lite that happened with the Dawnsingers, but I haven't fully worked out what that timeline would be. This might be why there is only one "generation" of fused - they are the original dawnsinger radiants - that Odium chose due to their unique connections to the surges/spren. And the fused were willing to help because they had just been abandoned by their spren for... some reason. (or maybe not why, but these events feel like they could/should be connected to me - they could have the same cause, maybe) Were Dawnsingers true "Radiants"? Or did they just form another type of bond with those spren? Will Leshwi revive her old Honorspren and become a heavenly one-windrunner? (along the same lines as Venli's dual willshaper/envoy form powers) I need to do a re-read to find more details that support this (and try to find clues of why spren left singers in the first place), but wanted to bring it up here to see what other people thought.

I've kinda been operating under the assumption that Devotion was the closest we were going to get to "love" or an opposite to Odium - not totally sure about that, but in my head that is one of the reasons Rayse went after Aona and Skai first - splinter/shatter your opposite because it could become the most powerful weapon against you - that sorta thing. Don't think we know enough about devotion to know that fully though - but to me it's the closest of the shards we know to covering "Godly Love" whereas Odium is "Godly Hate/fury"

He was much more sane than I was expecting for sure - I loved the big insights he gives Shallan. I wonder if living in the cognitive realm helps prevent "Heraldic-Mind-Decay" or maybe living there means he's less impacted by it/has reverted to a better state? In any case, I found his... lucidity surprising... though maybe that could also be because Shallan swore a truth in front of him? Also on a grand scale it's so much fun to come back to our very first POV character just as a "where are they now" kinda thing. Gives me some nostalgia for when I first started reading and thought Kalak would be the protagonist

Could be some bondsmith Connection shenanigans - connect self to spiritual realm and other combatants, and maybe you can see those combatants in the spiritual realm/see a bit ahead of where they will be. BUT - I read that scene as just that Ishar is WAY beyond the level of any mortal fighter. He's fought and killed more random mortals than any non-immortal on Roshar, most likely. The heralds level of combat experience is multiple orders of magnitude greater than that of anyone they fight, so they can just use that + their supernatural conditioning to predict and act. Think if someone like Kaladin spent an extra 3000 years JUST fighting and teaching others to fight - I think Brandon wants us to understand that even WITHOUT their Herald powers, the Heralds are terrifying because of the immense amount of practice they've gotten.

Wait - does the sun circle Roshar? I'm like 90% sure it's the other way around. This feels like it might be Brandon being cheeky or something - Moash knew Kal can't be killed, sure as he knew... some other things that he doesn't actually have the level of understanding to know. I don't think this is evidence against the theory because there's DEFINITELY something weird going on with Kal and Honor. My guess is that he can die, but the result of his death will not be exactly what was expected.

This is a nice point - information would be Connection, which is one of the Bondsmith's biggest abilities (spritual adhesion). So the Stormfather-bondsmith resonances would be related to what connection to the Stormfather could offer radiant orders, maybe.

My roommate had an interesting idea here - he was leaning toward Mraize or Iyatil and that they did it with a blowgun. Iyatil is proven to be very stealthy, so I could see there having been some hiding spot that would allow her to get off a single blowgun needle. I'd still vote for formless/Ishnah as the most likely, but could be a nice twist.

Oh yeah that would be very cool - might go so far as being able to create a localized storm and protect friends/allies from its wind

Now that we have confirmed that Dalinar and co. have only been able to use his bondsmith powers with Shallan's illumination, what do you all think some other options would be for other orders/surges? Some of the combinations seem like they could be extremely powerful, but theres also others I have no idea about. Truthwatcher - AOE Regrowth/more powerful regrowth Elsecaller - Large-scale soulcasting. Bondsmiths can already reform something to its spiritual ideal, I could see that combined with soulcasting leading to the creation of some wondrous things. Could Dustbringer - Mass destruction, destroy everything within a range, or destroy more than they normally could What other synergies could arise from Dalinar connecting with Radiants? I feel like I'm not thinking out of the box enough for some of these - they probably won't all be direct enhancements but might play more into the spren associated with the order.

Yeah this is definitely a stretch, but that doesn't 100% mean they aren't connected - totally possible that the sibling leaving Urithiru and the Scouring were separate events that caused the Sibling pain. Like - sibling left Urithiru and ended up moving to Aimia, starting to re-build and recover until the Scouring put them back again. I'm definitely jumping through hoops here, but Aimians were the first thought I had when I saw "Them" as the pronoun. I also like the idea of them being connected because it gives us more info on two of our big unknowns in one fell swoop.

Maybe the sibling has some connection to the sleepless/Aimia? A spren of the sleepless - hurt in the scouring of Aimia. Not totally sure if that works, timing-wise, but I do like the idea of the Sleepless godspren being... asleep.

After reading Chapter 8, wanted to open up a thread for specifically discussing what Shallan needs to realize about herself. We know from Veil and Pattern that there is something more Shallan needs to realize/understand about her past. Given that we saw Radiant in plate at the end of OB, Shallan has some oaths that were already spoken that we need her to re-speak on screen (or, I think so). So what could her final secret be? (not her final ideal - I think that will be more related to how she handles these things) It's likely there was an Unmade influencing her family, maybe something related to this? 4th/nth alters that are hidden - Perhaps the one she created first, before Radiant and Veil Some other family trauma (another sibling, perhaps? Shallan is running out of family) Ghostbloods (Maybe Shallan is related to one of them?) Helloran - maybe he left for a reason other than friction with Lin? Something she soulcast at a young age - we see her shy away from Soulcasting subconsciously in OB - maybe it's connected to this secret? SoH? Maybe... Restares is involved? Grasping at straws here - assuming he will be important this book, maybe he connects here. "The girl who looked up" - What is something Shallan could have done that symbolized her "Looking up" at a young age? This could be the thing she blames herself for most Maybe something with a Herald? I could see her mother or the lover having been a herald Could be greater-cosmere related, somehow - Maybe has to do with Hoid's interest with her and her family Big stretch, but maybe something with the old magic/cultivation? I think there have been almost no hints about this other than Shallan's affinity for plants/animals, but her memory could be one of Cultivation/the Nightwatcher's "Prunings" (the timing on this might not make sense - I think its unlikely she got the nightwatcher, and doesn't cultivation say it had been a long time since she personally visited someone in OB?) What do you think? What did I miss? Shallan is one of my favorite characters to theorize about - let's dig in!

I'd say Boromir's death was a redemption - his last moments are him realizing he was wrong, helping the hobbits, and accepting Aragorn . I actually think that's the only kind of redemption arc I would accept for Moash. He realizes what he could have been and sacrifices himself to hold off the enemy or something along those lines. If he is redeemed and survives... it would feel cheap. (unless it was done in a really brilliant way, which could totally happen)

I think what Renarin did was a product of a Truthwatcher Resonance (progression + illumination) as well as the influence of Glys, which makes it like, doubly weird. He was using illumination in a way we haven't seen (what you could progress to become), while also being able to overcome the influence of Odium in that room. I think the numbness/void that Moash felt was helping push Syl away, and Renarin's particular connection to Odium through Glys was able to overcome it. On another note - I liked that we got more of Shallan's internal discussion of her own sanity. Good to see that Veil wants to push Shallan towards recognizing the deeper secret, but what could it be? I have a million ideas: Unmade influence? Some other family trauma (another sibling, perhaps? Shallan is running out of family) Ghostbloods Some kind of abuse Something with Helloran (maybe he left for a reason other than friction with Lin) Something she soulcast at a young age - we see her shy away from Soulcasting in OB - maybe it's connected to this last truth? SoH? Maybe... Restares is involved? Grasping at straws here "The girl who looked up" - What is something Shallan could have done that symbolized her "Looking up" at a young age? This could be the thing she blames herself for most

I think one of the important pieces of Urithiru could be related to the fact that it's split - perfectly, a lot like a conjoined Fabrial. Not sure what that could mean - maybe there's a counterpart elsewhere, maybe this is related to the Sibling - or maybe I missed some more obvious reason it's like that. Second thought is that Moash will become the vessel/champion of odium. He's already "given his feelings" to Odium, the void, so he is setting himself up to be the most receptive to that power. Since joining that side, he has become more and more emotionless, which I think sets himself up to be "the void" or something related to it

I think it's entirely possible that Harmony is just wrong about his situation though - it might be that before they start merging he is impotent, but once Harmony is it's own shard, he won't be. I think there's a bit of a learning curve to holding and using even just 1 shard - it'll probably take a lot longer with 2

That's true - might be the same idea though, Odium's not invested on Ishi, since that would be the one that corresponds with ishar, the herald of bondsmiths, the one order that doesn't have an analogue in voidbinding.