A Dumb Idea that Seems WAY too Feasible

[Karger he/him]

So I was thinking about the Herald madness and this WoB.

Quote

Questioner

The Heralds seem to be insane in the ways of their Divine Attributes, at least somewhat. Is this because they're Heralds? As Cognitive Shadows, they're subject to people's perception, like how spren are?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a very astute question, and yes, that is influencing them quite a bit. I'm doing something here with the Heralds. Like, I want the Heralds "madnesses," as we call them, to be magical diseases. And the contrast of something like Kaladin's depression, which I'm trying to treat very real-world. I'm trying to treat them as these things that couldn't exist in our world. They're fantastical mental diseases, like we have fantastic physical diseases in Elantris. So I did make them thematic, and I would say part of the reason for that is people's perception of them and their mental state reacting against that. And that should be a theme among all of the Heralds.

San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020)

Then I got to thinking.  Heralds are basically spren.  One of the Honorspren even says that Kelek is a Spren not a man.  Spren can't sense people's reactions when they are behind aluminum.  A really easy fix would just be to have them wear aluminum foil hats.  Then I went a bit further.  If you want to take a spren off world can't you just put it in an aluminum box?  The connection could not penetrate that way either.  This seems both too simple and too workable.  What am I missing?

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

59 minutes ago, Karger said:

So I was thinking about the Herald madness and this WoB.

Then I got to thinking.  Heralds are basically spren.  One of the Honorspren even says that Kelek is a Spren not a man.  Spren can't sense people's reactions when they are behind aluminum.  A really easy fix would just be to have them wear aluminum foil hats.  Then I went a bit further.  If you want to take a spren off world can't you just put it in an aluminum box?  The connection could not penetrate that way either.  This seems both too simple and too workable.  What am I missing?

It probably works with the gemstones. It may work with Spren and Seons. We can be pretty sure it doesn’t work with CSs, or Kell would have tried it already.

[Karger he/him]

1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

It probably works with the gemstones. It may work with Spren and Seons. We can be pretty sure it doesn’t work with CSs, or Kell would have tried it already.

So what is the key ingredient?  Also how is there a difference?

[Knight of Iron she/they]

59 minutes ago, Karger said:

So I was thinking about the Herald madness and this WoB.

Then I got to thinking.  Heralds are basically spren.  One of the Honorspren even says that Kelek is a Spren not a man.  Spren can't sense people's reactions when they are behind aluminum.  A really easy fix would just be to have them wear aluminum foil hats.  Then I went a bit further.  If you want to take a spren off world can't you just put it in an aluminum box?  The connection could not penetrate that way either.  This seems both too simple and too workable.  What am I missing?

Hmm. I feel this should not work, and after a lot of thinking by best argument so far is that aluminum blocks Investiture, and Connection to a planet would not be considered kinetic Investiture. It’s just Connection in the Spiritual Realm.

I couldn’t find any other evidence of aluminum blocking Connection in any way either.

[Karger he/him]

38 minutes ago, Ookla the Knight said:

I couldn’t find any other evidence of aluminum blocking Connection in any way either.

Navani's spanreed trick.

[CogitoErgoArclo he/him]

Heralds with literal tin foil hats. 

Please Adonalsium, let this be real. 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

15 minutes ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

Heralds with literal tin foil hats. 

Please Adonalsium, let this be real. 

It is on Scadrial!

Rest of the Cosmere: You wear... tin foil hats...

Scadrians: No, aluminum foil. It protects from mind control!

Rest of the Cosmere: (rapidly backsteps) Oookaaay then...

Assuming they don’t know about Brass/Zinc, that is.

Aluminum seems to block everything, so it probably could block Connection. Odds are this would be lethal for the Heralds, who seem to need the constant Connection to maintain their existence. The Heralds need a way to become self-sustaining.

It probably would work for Kell, but he wouldn’t be able to leave the box as his ‘tether’ would immediately drag him back to Scadrial. He needs a way to cut the tether without damaging himself. Unlike the Heralds, he’s a Sliver and is self-sustaining. He’s actually much closer to a Spren than they are.

 

[Knight of Iron she/they]

19 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Aluminum seems to block everything, so it probably could block Connection.

I’m pretty sure it blocks everything Investiture-related, and Connection and Fortune and that kind of thing is, in my opinion, not related to that.

And would this mean that I could not have Connection to aluminum, in whatever way, as the aluminum would resist/block it? Nightblood can’t be Connected to his sheath, etc. 

[DiePie]

4 hours ago, Karger said:

Then I got to thinking.  Heralds are basically spren. 

Rosharans (and I assume spren as well since they are shaped by the perceptions of Rosharans) would call a lot of things spren that aren't actually spren. Heralds are cognitive shadows stapled to a body (similar to a returned such as Vasher, though for whatever reason returned have a much easier time with the whole connection thing. Maybe it has to do with losing their memories?), though that's just a small nitpick and doesn't really affect the theory as a whole.

 

Though I though about it a bit, and looked up the epigraphs on the coppermind:

Quote

"The bond is what keeps us alive. You sever that, and we will slowly decompose into ordinary souls—with no valid Connection to the Physical or Spiritual Realms. Capture one of us with your knives, and you won’t be left with a spren in a jar, foolish ones. You’ll be left with a being that eventually fades away into the Beyond."

This states that a gemstone wouldn't work, though the same principle should apply to aluminum foil. If you could selectively cut certain connections with aluminum foil and thus only cut a herald's connection with Roshar and not the connections that keep them alive (assuming those are different), you could theoretically use an aluminum foil hat to smuggle a herald off of Roshar

[ScadrianTank he/him]

5 hours ago, Karger said:

If you want to take a spren off world can't you just put it in an aluminum box?  The connection could not penetrate that way either.

If aluminum really blocks all Connection to the outside, any Herald in such a box will die because their Connection to Honor would be severed. You are proposing to do the same thing the Singers did to Jezrien but with a different kind of cage.

[Rorzikel]

In terms of spren maybe if you don't do something to mess with connection the instant you let a spren outside of the aluminum box, they start snapping back to Roshar. Basically, you didn't break the rubberband, you just managed to stretch it dangerously far. Seems like a limitation Brandon would do. Otherwise it is way too easy as you say.

Edited December 2, 2020 by MyrmidonOfAchilles

[Karger he/him]

2 hours ago, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

In terms of spren maybe if you don't do something to mess with connection the instant you let a spren outside of the aluminum box, they start snapping back to Roshar. Basically, you didn't break the rubberband, you just managed to stretch it dangerously far. Seems like a limitation Brandon would do. Otherwise it is way too easy as you say.

That would actually be pretty interesting in terms of GB plans.  You use an aluminum box of stormlight to generate mechanical energy or output a spesific effect through a small hole using a fabrail but if anyone opens the box to see how the thing inside works they just find a bunch of splintered gemstones guaranteeing them a monopoly.  You could take your spren off world and even surgebind with them but no shardblades and you have to have a box touching your skin.

[BiochromaticStormlight he/him]

15 hours ago, DiePie said:

Heralds are cognitive shadows stapled to a body (similar to a returned such as Vasher, though for whatever reason returned have a much easier time with the whole connection thing. Maybe it has to do with losing their memories) 

The heralds get new bodies when they come to roshar each time. The returned get there cognitive shadow stapled to there dead bodies so I think that has something to do with it.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 12/2/2020 at 2:36 PM, Debarra said:

Besides the connection problem I think it wouldn't work more because I don't think the Heralds really are like Spren. I think that Honourspren was just trying to justify why they were allowing Kalak in but not other humans.

Heralds are Cognitive Shadows, which are ultimately pretty much the same thing as spren, with a different origin. They're Cognitive entities made of Investiture affected by perception with a driving Intent that can be trapped in gems and can form Nahel-esque bonds with people (though not necessarily granting powers; seons, Nightblood, etc use the same mechanism for the things they do, but don't grant powers).

[Destrus]

On 12/1/2020 at 8:18 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

It probably works with the gemstones. It may work with Spren and Seons. We can be pretty sure it doesn’t work with CSs, or Kell would have tried it already.

It may not be the exact methodology, but we do know that you can take a Seon off world now.  I would figure the same process will work for Spren.

[Raven Wilder]

There's another wrinkle to consider here: how would you get the aluminum box into the Cognitive Realm? Since aluminum isn't affected by Investiture, wouldn't standard methods for transporting stuff between Realms not work on it?

Of course, Vasher and Vivenna apparently were able to bring aluminum sheathes through the Cognitive Realm, but since they also were able to worldhop while being heavily Invested, they clearly know how to pull some special tricks.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

5 minutes ago, Debarra said:

I haven't really seen anything that shows they are changed by people perception of them

We've been told by Brandon that they are.

Spoiler

Questioner

The Heralds seem to be insane in the ways of their Divine Attributes, at least somewhat. Is this because they're Heralds? As Cognitive Shadows, they're subject to people's perception, like how spren are?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a very astute question, and yes, that is influencing them quite a bit. I'm doing something here with the Heralds. Like, I want the Heralds "madnesses," as we call them, to be magical diseases. And the contrast of something like Kaladin's depression, which I'm trying to treat very real-world. I'm trying to treat them as these things that couldn't exist in our world. They're fantastical mental diseases, like we have fantastic physical diseases in Elantris. So I did make them thematic, and I would say part of the reason for that is people's perception of them and their mental state reacting against that. And that should be a theme among all of the Heralds.

San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020)

 

6 minutes ago, Debarra said:

They are just people who are stuck in the cognitive realm

They aren't, though. They're made from a person, but changed into a different form.

Brandon has even referred to them as "spren or seons created from human souls".

Spoiler

danimalod

I just read Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell and loved it. How did the first shade come to be? Are there shades in other worlds? Do shades have bones?

Brandon Sanderson

Shades are what we call "Cognitive Shadows" in the cosmere. They're basically "spren" or "[seons]" created from human souls. (Where Investiture--or magical power--keeps a consciousness alive after it has lost its Physical connection.) Yes, shades all once had bodies.

Think of them like petrified souls, where instead of stone replacing the tissue of a corpse, magical power replaced the parts of a soul that connect that soul to the Three Realms.

Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 4, 2015)

"Spren" on Roshar refers to a category of beings that are extremely similar to each other; that is, Rosharan spren, seons, skaze, Cognitive Shadows, Shards, etc. All of these are fundamentally the same thing, with small differences between the subtypes.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

4 minutes ago, Debarra said:

I don't think this is really referring to anything magical though like Spren.

The questioner literally said "like how spren are" and Brandon said yes, as well as the fact Brandon explicitly states that the Heralds are suffering from magical illness, which he attributes partly to perception.

6 minutes ago, Debarra said:

If they were being magically influenced then they could never become the opposite of what people taught of themselves.

I mean, yes they can. They feel the urge to do something, and as he says, they react against it. They fight it, they do the opposite of what they feel the pull to do, for thousands of years, until they hit the point where it's become automatic to them.

8 minutes ago, Debarra said:

beyond superficial similarities they seem to act entirely different from one another.

The only differences in behavior we have seen that I can think of are 1. the Heralds are able to react against perception and Intent, which I would attribute more to the fact that a spren's mind, having grown out of the power, is simply less likely to consider it; and 2. the fact that some die in gemstones after a time.

10 minutes ago, Debarra said:

Just that they are like spren as in they share characteristics with them, in the same manner the parshendi and humans share traits with each other.

Except you would not describe the singers as humans that evolved on Roshar, nor would you describe humans as singers that evolved on Ashyn.

[Gemnation]

I think Navani&co could create a fabrial that produces the tones of Roshar which would provide the connection while it can also provide housing for the spren.

[DiePie]

1 hour ago, Gemnation said:

I think Navani&co could create a fabrial that produces the tones of Roshar which would provide the connection while it can also provide housing for the spren.

Perhaps this is similar to the sphere of connection that Kelsier stole from the Ire in Secret History (the on he used to ascend)

[Eternal Khol he/him]

7 hours ago, Raven Wilder said:

There's another wrinkle to consider here: how would you get the aluminum box into the Cognitive Realm? Since aluminum isn't affected by Investiture, wouldn't standard methods for transporting stuff between Realms not work on it?

aluminum doesn't "hold a charge", which would mean that the Investiture would run across it

An example is how Nightbloods sheath(made of aluminum) becomes a weapon even if he is only partly unsheathed. If only partly unsheathed, merely touching the sheath could be "deadly" in Brandons words

but if fully unsheathed, the sheath works as a block against his powers/investiture(as seen by the fused in OB blocking an attack from Nightblood)

 

so maybe to get Aluminum through a perp, you need to make the metal "think" that its part of you.(like how when partly unsheathed, it "thinks" its a part of nightblood)

That should be enough right?

Edited December 5, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Karger he/him]

DS

Spoiler

We know aluminum can go through a perpendicularity from Dawnshard.

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by Karger

[Knight of Iron she/they]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

 

Probably spoiler tag it if it's from Dawnshard, those are allowed in this forum only spoiler tagged.