Shallan is even more cringe than before

[Frustration he/him]

33 minutes ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

I mean, you can think Shallan is cringe in general all you want, thats a valid-ish opinion. A wrong opinion, but technically valid. OP was specifically calling her cringe because of her mental disorder. Which is not a valid opinion.
From what I’ve heard, Shallan is actually a pretty accurate representation of what it’s like dealing with that sort of mental condition. So if the portrayal is accurate, and then you call the portrayal cringe, it’s calling the IRL condition cringe, which is not cool. 

Cringe is a weird term in general, if @Atlas could clearify by using a non-slang term that would be nice as "cringe" can be interpreted in so many ways.

35 minutes ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

As for the second part, let’s see...
Tyn, Her father, her mother, Ialai, Testament, probably some more I’m forgetting. How much bloodshed does Shallan need to cause to not be cringe? How is that even related?

Unless that was poor wording on your part and you’re actually just asking for Shallan to die. Which I have to disagree with. Even if you think she’s cringe, she’s still an integral part of the storyline. Removing Shallan would ruin the entire series. 

her parents and Tyn die in like one line and Ialai and testiment we don't even see.

is murder on screen to much to ask for? 

[danex he/him]

Pretty sure she has an entire fight scene with Tyn, and the scene of her poisoning and then strangling her father while singing is absolutely traumatic and terrifying, I don’t know how much more murder you’d need.

Also she literally creates an army of copies of herself to fight the singers at the battle of thaylen field. And the real version of herself did some actual fighting too with her Patternblade. 

Considering how she’s a scholar, not a warrior, that seems to be a lot. It’s definitely enough for me. 

I think she’s actually killed more characters than Kal has, he’s only killed unnamed and non-important soldiers. Shallan has actually killed numerous named characters. 

[Chanarach]

I've never been very complimentary of Shallan, hated her most of this book but I've decided to let bygones be bygones (for now). Not only did she not attempt to kill my boy, Kelak, but she called Mraize a Jabroni and gave him the Peoples Eyebrow.  Well done. 

[trav]

On 3.12.2020 at 3:14 PM, Jenet said:

Wow. I honestly don't understand why many people even read these books. It seems so many people don't like the characters, find the arcs boring, and cringe when readiing important character development arcs. And I am really interested in understanding other people. I should study this forum more, it seems.

its easy to explain.

the overarching story of the cosmere and the workings of the magic system are the most interesting part - to me.
overall I like Brandons characters. the only series where I dislike major parts of the plot and characters is SA.
the book 4 arcs were not good overall in my opinion. not compared to the previous books.

Mistborn for example. I love the characters. I love the story. as a whole. the 2nd book was not good though. the rest? brilliant.

I care about how the fabrials work. I care about how the magic works. I care about how the bond works. I care about how the magic can be twisted.
what I don't care for is Kaladins constant inner struggle that doesn't seem to get anywhere. its tiresome. it was okay the first time, but constant back and forth is killing this.
same goes for Shallan.

for Shallan especially...
when the "big" reveal came I thought to myself "this was it? this was storming it? glad I skimmed through her chapters then."
don't get me wrong. Brandon is a great author. that doesn't mean one has to like everything he writes.

[SirNoSell]

2 hours ago, trav said:

for Shallan especially...
when the "big" reveal came I thought to myself "this was it? this was storming it? glad I skimmed through her chapters then."
don't get me wrong. Brandon is a great author. that doesn't mean one has to like everything he writes.

Completely agree.

[Frustration he/him]

8 hours ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

Pretty sure she has an entire fight scene with Tyn, and the scene of her poisoning and then strangling her father while singing is absolutely traumatic and terrifying, I don’t know how much more murder you’d need.

Tyn fight scene is

Tyn hit me, I'll stab her.

I don't care about her father, I really don't care, nothing she has done has made me feel anything other than, "Please die, or otherwise move your chapter PoV's to a character I acctually care about."

8 hours ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

Also she literally creates an army of copies of herself to fight the singers at the battle of thaylen field. And the real version of herself did some actual fighting too with her Patternblade. 

And no page time.

8 hours ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

Considering how she’s a scholar, not a warrior, that seems to be a lot. It’s definitely enough for me. 

I think she’s actually killed more characters than Kal has, he’s only killed unnamed and non-important soldiers. Shallan has actually killed numerous named characters. 

More blood, let me see the blood Murder death(this is kind of morbid).

3 hours ago, trav said:

for Shallan especially...
when the "big" reveal came I thought to myself "this was it? this was storming it? glad I skimmed through her chapters then."
don't get me wrong. Brandon is a great author. that doesn't mean one has to like everything he writes.

Same I spent the entire book thinking "I seriously doubt I will feel anything on this reveal that's being hypped"

and I was right, it invocked the same emotion that causes eye-rolls, it didn't live up to any of the hype at all. 

[Jenet]

18 hours ago, trav said:

its easy to explain.

the overarching story of the cosmere and the workings of the magic system are the most interesting part - to me.
overall I like Brandons characters. the only series where I dislike major parts of the plot and characters is SA.
the book 4 arcs were not good overall in my opinion. not compared to the previous books.

Mistborn for example. I love the characters. I love the story. as a whole. the 2nd book was not good though. the rest? brilliant.

I care about how the fabrials work. I care about how the magic works. I care about how the bond works. I care about how the magic can be twisted.
what I don't care for is Kaladins constant inner struggle that doesn't seem to get anywhere. its tiresome. it was okay the first time, but constant back and forth is killing this.
same goes for Shallan.

for Shallan especially...
when the "big" reveal came I thought to myself "this was it? this was storming it? glad I skimmed through her chapters then."
don't get me wrong. Brandon is a great author. that doesn't mean one has to like everything he writes.

Thank you for giving an explanation I can understand, even though I do not share your view. That's fine, and I find it interesting to try to understand people that think differently from me.

You know, a big problem for people who struggle with mental disorders, is that their friends expect them to "get well soon". But a mental disorder is often not something you actually get well from. You learn to live with it. Or you get so well that you can handle yourself and pretend that you are "normal". Also, I find Sanderson's take on it a good one, not discussing diagnoses, but trying to understand all people, regardless of their formal diagnoses. To see the person and not the technical description, trying to stuff a person into a diagnose, or waiting impatiently for that person to be more easy to understand, in other words less cringeworthy or boring.

I am an engineer, and a woman, and I have been working as a project leader in R&D, and I can totally relate to Navani. Sometimes I feel Sanderson has peeped inside my mind. So I can easily understand the fascination for the magic and the worldbuilding. But for me, that is just background. I like to get to know people, and why they tick.

Lately, I have become less and less interested in following this forum, because so few are interested in discussing the characters and the "why" in their character development and the choices they make. Most people like to explain why they hate to read about certain characters, and why they love to read about others. I had my suspicions that most people here are like you, loving the technicalities and hating the people, that is if the characters struggle mentally more than a short time.

I wish to say that I have no problems with this, that is also an interesting viewpoint for me. I needed to post a few comments to see if my feeling was right though, and it seems so. No worries, I just found out I get no more information from these discussions that are interesting to me, and I will stop trying to start discussions that are interesting only to me. Again please don't take this as resentment from me, I will be visiting and reading from time to time, I just needed to know if there are others who share my interests here.

Edited December 10, 2020 by Jenet

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

On 12/2/2020 at 0:38 PM, Koloss17 said:

Storm it! Now I want Kel in stormlight soon. I doubt he will show himself next book, but I want him to.

I think he may appear near the end, but I suspect his name will be given phonetically if given.

On 12/1/2020 at 1:40 PM, Arch1tect said:

Shallan is probably actually my favorite character, probably because I suffer from avoidant personality disorder, and it's similar in a lot of ways to what she's going through. 

I do get how most of you find her frustrating, and I imagine she was frustrating to write. And I think that's somewhat intentional. The world is slowly working on acceptance, for example go check out the Jasnah and Rlain sexuality posts, so much love on those posts. But people are like "I just hate that version of her" bro she hates all of the versions of her. 

Especially towards the end, where she's having a full blown meltdown, and her trying to rationalize with herself - I love it. 

I think people are more sympathetic towards Kal because everyone has fought some amount of depression. I mean shots fired, we're here obsessing over a book. It's an escape, it's our escape, if you're reading this, you probably suffer from depression. Shallan suffers from something a little more rare, and difficult to understand. 

But so example. Be me, physically handicapped (though not as much as many) terrified of people, certain loud noises, paranoid, just want to sleep and hide. I work a job where that won't do. I had to create an aspect of myself that was confident, self assured, bold. I do this because helping people is a core ideal for me I guess. But most times, when my weekend rolls around after a week of 12 hour shifts listening to, reacting to, and fighting the horrors that are reality in our world, I'm exhausted more than just physically. It's a heavy mask to wear. Friends moved on, I frustrated them too much by wanting to be around them but not wanting to do anything. Relationships don't work, I'm a burden. 

Everything Shallan has going on in her head is real. The personas don't help her cope, they help her survive. 

Anyways, tldr, you're absolutely allowed to not care for Shallan as a character, that's your right as a reader. Just maybe cut her some slack, she's trying. 

(Also this isn't meant to be a pity-party-post, just thought maybe a realistic example would help)

Cheers guys 

And, like you, I’m the opposite. I hate being in Kaladin’s head because I deal with my depression in a very different way and I find being in his head makes my depression worse. People talk about how reading Kal’s viewpoints helped them off the ledge, while I find that reading them can make me somewhat suicidal. I find the way he deals with depression indulgent (for me) and don’t understand or relate to him at all.

If I allowed myself to think the way he does I probably would have killed myself. So I don’t allow myself to think that way. I’ve been doing what amounts to CBT on myself since I was a teen, because who ever heard of PMDD in the early 2000s? When the dark thoughts come I make myself think of something else, often by reading. And it is literally dangerous for me to read SA one week out of every four and it is ENTIRELY due to Kaladin.

I love Mistborn. Just insert ‘depression’ for the Lord Ruler in Kell’s speech about joy. It’s practically my motto.

On the other hand, I totally love and relate to Shallan. I’m an artist, she’s an artist. She’s a geek and I’m a geek. I find the way she’s written fascinating, I love the mysteries and Cosmere goodies in her story, and her sense of wonder is a joy. If I give her a larger page count and cut down Kaladin’s, I’d be very happy.

Edited December 10, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613

[jamesbondsmith]

I'm frustrated with her for several reasons, but I can mostly understand why she would hold the beliefs that lead to those frustrating behaviours. Although I'm still seething at her victim blaming of the bridgemen to Kaladin's face, which he's just supposed to get over.

One thing I really disliked was that she suffered no consequences for killing her spren, which is exactly what the whole trial was about. Sure, she was a kid who didn't know what she was doing, but considering the spren blamed modern humans for what their ancestors did centuries ago, at very least the spren should have done something beyond giving them a cushy room to reconnect in. Not to mention the fact that they just toss cryptics at this kid who's already killed one like they're cannon fodder.

[Luck Spren]

On 11/30/2020 at 7:32 PM, GroundPetrel said:

I actually have liked Shallan more as her mental state has deteriorated. 

Me too. I actually thought she was going to murder Pattern at some point or another when she found out that he was spying on her.  

In Oathbringer I didn't quite get what was going on in her head and I disliked her for that. At some points, It honestly felt like she was having a fit.

In Rhythm of War, her mental illness is much more established and it fits the story better because of the plot, I believe.

[stefnSS]

Sorry for resurrecting this thread, I just have to say that I really hope Shallan is given the same amount of presence in the next book as she had in WoT

WoR had some epic moments for her story, that dull the boring ones ( and there were some that were really draaaaaaaaging) so I had high hopes it would improve from then on. But it has gotten worse.

I don't have a problem with the character itself, she is standing out and is definitely crafted masterfully (though I didn't like her witty remarks except for very few, it was largely ' brain rolling" and skipping through them). It's just that her stories became much less engaging, mostly due to frequency, length, and worldly description that could be reduced. As a character she is stoic but the plot around her is heading in a dangerous direction of confusing mess and maze.

 

She has been given really quite a presence and just for once I would like the next book to actually focus more around the focused character and the other main ones

 

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by stefnSS

[Medium he/they]

I feel like I'm one of the only people who actually fully enjoys Shallan.

*sigh*

[BharatiyaNagarik he/him]

1 hour ago, Theldragor said:

I feel like I'm one of the only people who actually fully enjoys Shallan.

*sigh*

You're not alone. She is one of my favorite characters in the entire Cosmere.

[Frustration he/him]

21 hours ago, stefnSS said:

I really hope Shallan is given the same amount of presence in the next book as she had in WoT

I couldn't agree more

[Meg]

 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

 

20 hours ago, BharatiyaNagarik said:

You're not alone. She is one of my favorite characters in the entire Cosmere.

I couldn't agree more

 

Hahaha?? ... Is sarcasm a proper response here?

 

I mean, I might misinterpret you, Frustration, but I feel you're making fun on a simple typo? Please clarify. Thank you.

 

Spoiler

I think that Frustration took "WoT" as "Wheel of Time" where Shallan naturally has no appearance at all.

 

Edited August 21, 2021 by Meg
Clarifying why I think it sarcasm.

[Frustration he/him]

4 hours ago, Meg said:

 

 

Hahaha?? ... Is sarcasm a proper response here?

 

I mean, I might misinterpret you, Frustration, but I feel you're making fun on a simple typo? Please clarify. Thank you.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I think that Frustration took "WoT" as "Wheel of Time" where Shallan naturally has no appearance at all.

 

I'm not making fun of it, and I think WoT is intentional

and is what I agree with

[Medium he/they]

On 8/20/2021 at 4:18 PM, BharatiyaNagarik said:

You're not alone. She is one of my favorite characters in the entire Cosmere.

That's a big relief

[CamilleDesmoulins]

Shallan is def not one of my favourites… it’s a mix of her attitude being rather unlikable (boots, stabbing a random dude in a bar) and never being held to account for it, and her mystery box amnesia backstory.

[AquaRegia he/him]

I'm sorry that so many people seem to really fiercely dislike Shallan and her chapters.  Of course you are perfectly free to like or dislike anything you please.

I find her story fascinating - the "unreliable narrator" has never been done better IMO - and I do personally relate to her curiosity and desire to be a scholar and to her penchant for inappropriate sarcasm and levity.

I don't relate to her trauma and her mental illness... but I am married to a woman who does.  Believe me, the way Shallan represses painful memories, they way she compartmentalizes things, they way she relies on different parts of her personality (aka different personas) to deal with things, the way she straight-up lies to herself - all these ring true for me through a long relationship with someone who's dealing with similar things.  I think Brandon has produced nothing short of a storming masterwork of how trauma-induced DID can work.

I would encourage anyone who finds that they can't relate to Shallan's trauma and resulting extreme coping mechanisms, be thankful that you don't have the kinds of experiences which would make these things relatable.  That said, it's not really anybody's fault if they don't find a particular character entertaining or enjoyable.

[Waffles]

I'm curious if people felt shallan was tiresome in ROW were also annoyed by frodo sam gollum scenes later in LoTR...

[Hollow Graves]

On 8/20/2021 at 1:36 PM, Theldragor said:

I feel like I'm one of the only people who actually fully enjoys Shallan.

*sigh*

You are not alone. Shallan is one of my favorites, the other being Wit.

[Medium he/they]

19 minutes ago, livingbrightness said:

You are not alone. Shallan is one of my favorites, the other being Wit.

Eyyyyy Shallan enjoyer, welcome to the gang. We are small, but strong.

[Dreamwa1ker she/her]

16 hours ago, Theldragor said:

Eyyyyy Shallan enjoyer, welcome to the gang. We are small, but strong.

I also love Shallan. 

 

[AquaRegia he/him]

Some 17th Sharders:  "I hate Shallan for victim-blaming the bridgemen"

The very same 17th Sharders:  *victim-blame Shallan*

[Frustration he/him]

22 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

Some 17th Sharders:  "I hate Shallan for victim-blaming the bridgemen"

The very same 17th Sharders:  *victim-blame Shallan*

Are you placing me in that group?