[Sixth of the Dusk 2][RoW] Future of the Cosmere spoilers! The Knight's Light

[Ixthos he/him]

[Sixth of the Dusk 2][RoW] Future of the Cosmere spoilers! The Knight's Light

This topic contains possible spoilers about the future of the Cosmere, as well as Rhythm of War. This is based off of the discovery of the different Lights, and this extract Brandon read from a future Sixth of the Dusk story:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/448/#e14408

 

I recommend you not only read the transcript, but listen to what Brandon said as well - to jump to a particular point in the audio please listen to the .mp3 found here, and then jump to the time stamp: https://wob.coppermind.net/media/snippets/501/11197_1411.mp3. I am placing everything from this point on in spoilers.

Spoiler

There are three things I would like to talk about with regards to the - possible - Knight, being:

1. The species of the Knight
2. The shardgun and fabrial ammo pack, and
3. The Light.

Talking about the Light - the Knight's power source and order - is the main thrust of this discussion, but the others are important too.

 

1. The species of the Knight

I am going to assume that this is a Knight, as it certainly is shardplate, and the speed at which the shardgun was summoned suggests they are bound to a living spren, unless they found a way around that. It is probably best to assume they are a full knight of some order - see the section on Lights. The height could be - as is implied with the Ones Above being pale - due to having lived in space for so long, or it could be because they are actually a singer in a different form - the way the Knight spoke could be an indication of this, assuming it isn't because of speakers on the outside of the shardplate, speaking not with an accent but to rhythms, though could they here rhythms so far from Roshar or is there somehthing that would let them do so ... - or because the armour gives them a much larger profile that we thought. It could be a Knight from another world - I am hoping the conflict isn't just Scadrial vs Roshar, but rather a group that originated on Scadrial and includes other worlds vs a group that originated on Roshar and includes other worlds, with the Knight possibly being a Kandra - so the conflict isn't just everyone from one planet vs everyone from another, but that there are members from both planets in each side, and even more sides besides them. Either way, it seems likely this is a Knight with a living spren.

• We know the groups - or at least they are implied to be - are from Scadrial and Roshar, but are there other factions as well, including other factions from the same worlds? Are Sel nations - or a unified Sel - involved? Aether-ships? Has Taldain joined the fray? Threnody? Has Silverlight become a space station (I'm still convinced its location ties to where Ambition died, Uli Da's physical corpse corresponding to the general location in the physical realm where the cognitive city is located, with the remains of the shard in the cognitive realm expanding it)
• Also, as implied by the One's Above possibly living in space most of the time - and possibly using iron metalminds to reduce their weight so as to stand on the planet, assuming they aren't used to normal gravity - are there entire space based civilisations?

 

2. The shardgun and the fabrial ammo pack

I have been convinced for years this is possible, and while this doesn't confirm it, I think the shardgun was going to be used as a conduit for a Lightwoven laser. It could be something else, a focused beam of gravity or division, or even projectiles from the ammo pack, but I think the ammo pack was a fabrial, and one which allowed the shardgun - which appeared instantly and so likely is the Knight's spren - to Lightweave an attack (though gravitation or division are also interesting possibilities). So, is the fabrial ammo pack - assuming it is a fabrial - a fabrial that allows any shardmetal of the appropriate type to conduct lightweaving / gravity / division, or only shardweapons? Is it the equivalent of a soulcaster for the surge of lightweaving, or a particular application of lightweaving?

• Another thing to consider - if the fabrial ammo pack is the equivalent of a soulcaster in that it affects surges (and it might not be, but if), what other types of attacks could there be? What types of attacks could be produced?
  • Adhesion beams - knock back due to pressure, suffocation, non-leathal binding in place
  • Gravity beams - launch any direction, crush, remove the pull of gravity
  • Division beams - disintigrators
  • Abrasion beams - set on fire, cause to slip
  • Progression beams - as a life surge could drain life or mutate or heal, as a time surge could produce the effects of time bubbles
  • Lightweaving beams - lasers, sonic
  • Transportation beams - teleport into the cognitive realm, teleport somewhere in the physical realm
  • Cohesion beams - melt
  • Tension beams - solidify

 

3. The Light

The Knight was able to fly, and we know shardplate resists investiture that isn't native to it, even if it is from another order. It is possible they found a way around this, and that the shardplate is actually dead plate, or the Knight is from another order other than Windrunners and Skybreakers - or a merged order - but I suspect they likely are either a Windrunner, Skybreaker, or hybrid, USING A HYBRID LIGHT, and not entirely of Honour. I will elaborate.

First, the colour of the light should be a good way to tell the colour of the order. Listed at 11:25 - The glyph isn't much help as many of the glyphs could be described as bird like, and it might not match any known glyph anyhow due to Kaladin's looks like the symbol for bridge four, so instead lets focus on the light. The light the knight had was a violet-blue glow. No order has a light that clearly matches that, though blue - or blue-cyan - matches the Windrunners, it could theoretically match the Skybreakers, or the Elsecallers or the Willshapers. Those are all possibilities, but consider the details. There are two clues.

The first clue is that the Knight flew, and we know that Shardplate resists other's efforts to apply investiture to it. There could be a way around that, and as we have a shardgun, I think it is a safe assumption that the rules have been expanded, more learnt by those who use surgebinding, that some assumptions no longer hold. But let's break as few of them as possible. The two orders which naturally can fly are the Windrunners and the Skybreakers, and Brandon has said before, Windrunners, due to adhesion affecting atmospheric pressure, have an easier time moving through space than Skybreakers, as mentioned in this link: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/450/#e14436. Sixth thinks the knight probably arrived from space in their armour, came from among the distant worlds by their own power, but remember Sixth doesn't know the details, as he assumes the armour itself allowed the flight. Which is could have, let's not rule that out, but let's also not assume that the plate of one order has now manifested the powers of another. It could be that the knight is a Skybreaker, and uses a fabrial to maintain atmospheric pressure, or a store of stormlight/voidlight/warlight/some other hybrid (more on that below), or even that there is a ship in orbit that they and the Ones Above don't know about, a stop off point which is used to travel between the stars, but either way the knight clearly used gravitation to move.

The second and greatest clue is that the Knight makes no mention of protecting anyone, though it could well consider the people of First of the Sun to need protection by being conquered ("I'm doing this to save you.") and instead focuses on laws, and even at the end, after talking about the planet's laws mentions what the knight would be permitted legally to do if they don't cooperate. This suggests Skybreaker. But the glow ... the GLOW is wrong.

I've looked, and I don't recall seeing the Skybreaker's glow described as violet. Maybe I missed something, but either way, listen to this part at 14:40 - this is something not covered in the transcript, so listen to the audio. Brandon says a deep sky blue before correcting himself and saying a deep violet. Described as blue ... and then violet, remembering that the original colour mentioned was violet-blue. And what Light do we know is violet? Voidlight, and anyone using voidlight.

Now, I don't think the night was using voidlight, we know that each knight has a different colour, rather I think the knight was using a hybrid light, as I think the orders have changed. Just as we know - without giving spoilers - that the magic on Scadrial changed slightly, new types discovered and new combinations, I think the orders of Knights Radiant changed, and I think the shards that power them changed. And I think this is either a Skybreaker offshoot or future version, an order combined with Odium and possibly Cultivation, or a hybrid between Skybreaker (due to the focus on laws) and Windrunner (due to the blue colouration and implied - but not confirmed - ability to move between planets without needing a ship) and possibly with a single united shard powering them (due to the colour of the light).

This is where I hope the differences in orders comes in, with not all Rosharans on board, the hybrid Voidbreakers / Skybringers (as I call what I think the Skybreakers powered by a mixture of Honour and Odium and possibly Cultivation) once again opposed by the Voidrunners / Windbringers, those who seek to protect those who cannot protect themselves - and that includes exploited people. Of course, it is entirely possible this is a Voidrunner, and he (or she, or they, or it) seeks to protect his (etc.) own people, and if the people of this planet accept her, they will become part of that people. Or this is a Skyrunner, or Windbreak- ... um ... Law and Protection Radiant, but there is no way they felt threatened by the primitive weapon used against its magical armour. It could be that, in order to protect his own people, the Knight must exploit these ones, but again that feels like they are stretching it a bit. I think it is far more likely this is a new version of Skybreaker or Skybreaker/Windrunner hybrid, itself a hybrid of Honour, Odium, and possibly Cultivation ... withtheshardscombinedandsharedbytenpeople ... but that's another discussion ... :-P ;-) A new order combining old orders and new powers with a new power source, reflected in a new colour reflecting the old.

 

So, that is my theory - a future Skybreaker from an order of Skybreakers mixed with 1) Odium and possibly Cultivation, and/or 2)  the Windrunner order. What are your thoughts on this?

 

[LordTheodore]

2 hours ago, Ixthos said:

  Hide contents

So, that is my theory - a future Skybreaker from an order of Skybreakers mixed with 1) Odium and possibly Cultivation, and/or 2)  the Windrunner order. What are your thoughts on this?

 

I agree with everything you have stated. There is another possibility that occurred to me; That is that the Radiant is a normal Skybreaker using Warlight. This is assuming normal Radiants as they exist in the current SA can use Warlight to power surgebinding and it is no less efficient than Stormlight. We know that Voidlight leaks considerably slower from gemstones than Stormlight, therefore, it is plausible that Warlight leaks slower than Stormlight; This would make Warlight more useful for long-distance travel in places where there are no highstorms e.g in space.

Edited November 29, 2020 by LordTheodore

[LightReader she/her]

The way the guy talked about laws suggests Skybreaker to me and it seemed like his plate was functioning as a spacesuit. I agree that he was likely using warlight or some other hybrid light and that the gun was his spren. I was imagining the gun would be essentially a laser gun, firing some kind of concentrated hybrid light that would burn out the eyes of anyone living it hits and blast holes through inanimate objects. The fabrial powerpack being like a high-tech gemstone battery able to hold super-condensed light so they can carry a lot of light in a small container. Their other powers could also be fueled by directly accessing a similar light-storage device. I don’t think the weapons themselves would use/apply the surges, same as the current blades don’t. 

Edited November 29, 2020 by LightReader

[seriodor]

It's been a minute since I read Sixth of Dusk. Is the Darkness First of the Suns cognitive realm? Or is that something we don't know yet? Also I wonder who enforces space laws? Is it Autonomy enforcing rules when someone wants to conquer one of her worlds? I'd imagine that all of Autonomy's worlds have a bit of a disadvantage when it comes to investiture technology. It doesn't seem to be as easily available for them. Maybe they're the ones that Dusk will be making contact with. I'd have to assume Sel is represented somehow, at least by some form of the Ire. I definitely think the second guy was a Warform, Warlight using, Singer Skybreaker.

[Subvisual Haze]

Quote

"Tell me, President," the alien said to Vathi, "what are your local laws regarding challenges to my life? Do I have legal justification to shoot this man?"

Definitely a Skybreaker.  Possibly a human one, as Rosharans are extremely tall compared to humans on other planets.  He seems to be burning Warlight (Stormlight+Voidlight) based on the blue-violet glow.  I think this points to a future of internal peace on Roshar, with Odium focusing his ire offplanet and some Radiants like the Skybreakers choosing to continue to work with Odium.

I don't think it's direct war between Scadrial and Roshar.  Just expansionist factions from each butting heads around the cosmere.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Definitely a Skybreaker.  Possibly a human one, as Rosharans are extremely tall compared to humans on other planets.  He seems to be burning Warlight (Stormlight+Voidlight) based on the blue-violet glow.  I think this points to a future of internal peace on Roshar, with Odium focusing his ire offplanet and some Radiants like the Skybreakers choosing to continue to work with Odium.

I don't think it's direct war between Scadrial and Roshar.  Just expansionist factions from each butting heads around the cosmere.

Cold War, most likely.

[Karger he/him]

Most of your speculation seems reasonable but I do think it prudent to point out that we are talking about something happening thousands of years in the future with all of the technological, political, and cultural changes implied by this.  So yeah the shardplate is probably something a bit like living plate but it could be as different as iron age armor is from modern Kevlar.  The same principle could be behind it but that does not mean that it works exactly the same way or for exactly the same purpose.  Also Navani was learning the rhythms back in RoW.  I think it conceivable that other rosharans have cracked this and so on.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Karger

[seriodor]

Just to throw something out there, what does everyone think about the idea that the second alien is a straight up Highspren? Ishar was trying to find a way to pull spren through to the physical, and Highspren seem like they would be good for traversing the stars.

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

13 hours ago, seriodor said:

Just to throw something out there, what does everyone think about the idea that the second alien is a straight up Highspren? Ishar was trying to find a way to pull spren through to the physical, and Highspren seem like they would be good for traversing the stars.

Interesting theory. If there is a way to keep spren alive in the physical realm when they're pulled through like that, I'm guessing they've figured it out by now, and they do seem useful for space travel

[+robardin he/him]

18 hours ago, seriodor said:

Just to throw something out there, what does everyone think about the idea that the second alien is a straight up Highspren? Ishar was trying to find a way to pull spren through to the physical, and Highspren seem like they would be good for traversing the stars.

What, you mean the highspren that is bonded to the Skybreaker in the Shardspacesuit? Could a "really physical" spren still be summoned as a Shardweapon? That's kind of mind-blowing.

I have the icky feeling that what Ishar was after in pulling spren into corporeally physical form is not something that has some kind of beneficial side effect for the spren...

[seriodor]

3 minutes ago, robardin said:

What, you mean the highspren that is bonded to the Skybreaker in the Shardspacesuit? Could a "really physical" spren still be summoned as a Shardweapon? That's kind of mind-blowing.

I have the icky feeling that what Ishar was after in pulling spren into corporeally physical form is not something that has some kind of beneficial side effect for the spren...

No, I meant a Highspren inside the Shardspacesuit. As in Ishar (or someone else) figured out how to do it without killing them, and this is a living Highspren in a Shardspacesuit. 

Edited November 30, 2020 by seriodor

[+robardin he/him]

Just now, seriodor said:

No, I meant a Highspren inside the Shardspacesuit. As in Ishar (or someone else) figured out how to do it without killing them, and this is a living Highspren in a Shardspacesuit. 

Hm. Then how would a highspren summon and dismiss what seems to be a Shardweapon? A highspren with a Nahel bond... With another highspren?

[seriodor]

2 minutes ago, robardin said:

A highspren with a Nahel bond... With another highspren?

Why not? It should be impossible for even their corpses to exist the way we saw them exist in RoW. Or maybe a physical, living spren can use themselves as their own weapon. The idea jumped out to me because the second alien acts weird in a way that seems similar to a Highspren. Using weirdly formal language and obsessed with law.  Also it never shows it's face, and I don't know if we ever get a description of what Highspren voices sound like, but I kind of imagine it as how Dusk describes the second aliens voice because it would be coming from a person shaped hole in space. Also it's supposed to fly through space without a ship, and Highspren look like they're a human shaped portal to outer space.

[Friendshipspren he/him]

I think perhaps they have new nations in space. O'Neil cylinders and Dyson swarm. Heck u would be surprised how much surface area an O'Neil cylinder or  other larger variants can have. They can have centripetal force mimic any planets gravity just making the cylinder spin. 

Millions or even billions could live on one big cylinder or in a swarm of smaller ones. 

I think it's not just reduces to the planet but that you have artificial habitats. Some are colonies of the planet. Others are independent nations with a population as numerous as any planet. Perhaps to escape the influence of Shards. 

As for the gemstones losing Light. Just wrapping then in aluminium should work. 

Also  it's now possible for Venli and I assume others to power surgebinding via voidlight. Could this not become more common and expansive over time ?

Esp with Taravangian ending Odium's policy of aloofness and Taravangian and Cultivation buddying up. 

Also I think perhaps the Knight actually was a machine. A robot or android. With sentiance but not emotion. 

[Serack he/him]

Great post, and thank you for sharing that audio file which I hadn't heard.  Lots to digest, but I've got something small to add.

 

On 11/29/2020 at 3:11 PM, Ixthos said:

he height could be - as is implied with the Ones Above being pale - due to having lived in space for so long

Roshar has 0.7 cosmere standard gravitational acceleration (plus higher oxygen).  Brandon says that because of this they are taller than most other people in the cosmere.

Quote

Questioner

So for most of your planets do you just assume that gravity is 9.8 m/s, and do you have a reason for that, or--

Brandon Sanderson

It just depends on the planet. Like Roshar… it's 0.7 Earth gravity on Roshar.

Questioner

Oh really?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, otherwise they couldn't lift those bridges, and you couldn't have the-- Even with the help of the spren, you couldn't have the giant beasties. So it's a high-oxygen, low-gravity environment. So fire acts a little differently on Roshar than it does on other planets. People are taller, like if you put a Rosharan next to someone else the low-gravity would have had that effect.

Questioner

Oh, I didn't even know that.

Brandon Sanderson

Generally you should assume when I'm using numbers they're in-world numbers. So, for instance, a Rosharan foot is actually larger than a foot in another-- Stuff like that. I have to do some jockeying of these things to not be completely off-putting and confusing to people who are not expecting-- to the casual reader, but like days. A Rosharan year is 500 days, but they're twenty hour days, I made an hour basically our hour just to keep it from being too crazy for people. But that means when it says Kaladin's 18 he's really actually like 20 years old and a little over, or something like that, I forget the numbers. Everyone's a little bit older than they sound but it works just for the average reader.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Serack

[Serack he/him]

Also, there is this WoB about Windrunners being nearly tailor made to serve as astronauts.

 

Quote

Questioner

Would a Windrunner's Investiture be able to be used in space?

Brandon Sanderson

Would a Windrunner's Investiture be able to be used in space? In fact, yes. Windrunners would be particularly handy in space because they can control pressure as well as move around and things. So if you were going to pick an order of Knight Radiant, and you wanted to go be an astronaut, Windrunner would be the best choice.

Idaho Falls signing (July 21, 2018)

 

[ScadrianTank he/him]

6 hours ago, Serack said:

Roshar has 0.7 cosmere standard gravitational acceleration (plus higher oxygen).  Brandon says that because of this they are taller than most other people in the cosmere.

The same low gravity environment would also be found if you were raised on a spaceship or an artificial habitat, assuming that the force of artificial gravity there is less than standard if it's even present. 

[Serack he/him]

Between the passage of discussion, and the WoB and others much like it, I fully expect abnormal tallness to be a defining characteristic of off world Rosharians.  
 

space travel could explain it but I don’t think it’s the reason here.  

[Subvisual Haze]

The other possibility behind our very rude Radiant burning WarLight is that Odium and Honor's powers have blended or there is a higher level of cooperation between the two.  I know we've already done the shard mashup in Mistborn, but the phrasing of this line by Cultivation to Todd really caught my eye

Quote

“Odium’s power is the most dangerous of the sixteen,” she said. “It ruled Rayse, driving him to destroy. It will rule you too, if you let it.”

“They showed you this possibility, I assume,” Taravangian said, looking at infinity. “But this isn’t nearly as … certain as I imagined it. It shows you things that can happen, but not the hearts of those who act. How did you dare try something like this? How did you know I’d be up to the challenge?”

“I didn’t,” she said. “I couldn’t. You were heading this direction—all I could do was hope that if you succeeded, my gift would work. That I had changed you into someone who could bear this power with honor.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) (pp. 1192-1193). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

[seriodor]

25 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

The other possibility behind our very rude Radiant burning WarLight is that Odium and Honor's powers have blended or there is a higher level of cooperation between the two.  I know we've already done the shard mashup in Mistborn, but the phrasing of this line by Cultivation to Todd really caught my eye

 

I choose to believe she's talking about Dalinar and she's making a little private joke at Taravangian's expense. Like he thinks she's saying he can hold the power with honor and is planning to betray her, and she's actually saying this is all part of my plan to bring up Dalinar and you think you're pulling one over on me but actually you're a sacrificial tool.

[Subvisual Haze]

Just now, seriodor said:

I choose to believe she's talking about Dalinar and she's making a little private joke at Taravangian's expense. Like he thinks she's saying he can hold the power with honor and is planning to betray her, and she's actually saying this is all part of my plan to bring up Dalinar and you think you're pulling one over on me but actually you're a sacrificial tool.

Some of the best scenes we've had so far are Dalinar and T debating their ruling philosophies at one another and hoping to convince the other that they're correct.  I think the future is whatever allows these debates to continue for eternity.  The shardbearing Odd Couple.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

1 hour ago, seriodor said:

I choose to believe she's talking about Dalinar and she's making a little private joke at Taravangian's expense. Like he thinks she's saying he can hold the power with honor and is planning to betray her, and she's actually saying this is all part of my plan to bring up Dalinar and you think you're pulling one over on me but actually you're a sacrificial tool.

I think ‘with’ means ‘alongside’. She’s not trying to unite the Shards; she wants to create a union between the Vessels. Odium alongside Honor, held together by mutual respect.

Edited December 2, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613

[seriodor]

7 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I think ‘with’ means ‘alongside’. She’s not trying to unite the Shards; she wants to create a union between the Vessels. Odium alongside Honor, held together by mutual respect.

I don't think that's the case. Lot's of people for some reason want a Taravangian redemption arc or something, but he's not a good person. He's a narcissist that thinks he's the one that should be saving everyone, no matter what it costs. That's like every movie bad guy ever. Maybe he'll get to do a redemption sacrifice at the end, but I don't think he's the kind of person that ends up admitting he was wrong and working with everyone else in the end.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

1 hour ago, seriodor said:

I don't think that's the case. Lot's of people for some reason want a Taravangian redemption arc or something, but he's not a good person. He's a narcissist that thinks he's the one that should be saving everyone, no matter what it costs. That's like every movie bad guy ever. Maybe he'll get to do a redemption sacrifice at the end, but I don't think he's the kind of person that ends up admitting he was wrong and working with everyone else in the end.

But that has very little to do with Cultivation’s thoughts, even if you’re correct.

Two conflicting opinions by people who respect one another is more likely to stimulate growth than one opinion. Dalinar and Taravangian rubbing against one another is more likely to inspire growth, especially if they can work WITH one another toward a common goal.

I disagree with you completely BTW. T is does NOT have NPD. A narcissist would be incapable of doing the things T has done.

A Narcissist must have at least five of the following:

• A grandiose sense of self-importance (This) (K)

• A preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love (no) (K, possibly)

• A belief that he or she is special and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people or institutions (only due to magic, which doesn’t count.)

• A need for excessive admiration (very much not) (K)

• A sense of entitlement (again, no) (K, possibly)

• Interpersonally exploitive behavior (questionable; he is exploitive but not on an interpersonal level) (K)

• A lack of empathy (only due to magic, which doesn’t count) (K)

• Envy of others or a belief that others are envious of him or her (nope)

• A demonstration of arrogant and haughty behaviors or attitudes (yes) (K)

• In a proposed alternative model cited in DSM-5, NPD is characterized by moderate or greater impairment in personality functioning, manifested by characteristic difficulties in 2 or more of the following 4 areas ^[2] :

• Identity (he has a strong sense of self even on his stupidest days; no this isn’t an issue.)

• Self-direction (this is seriously not his issue) (K, arguably)

• Empathy (only due to magic) (K)

• Intimacy (No problems)

• In addition, NPD is characterized by the presence of both grandiosity and attention seeking. (Nope to both) (K, 100%)

• Taravangian is many things, but a narcissist he is NOT. He gets 2.5 of the traits, none of the four, and lacks the Grandiose/attention seeking element entirely. He’s worse because he DOES care... and he does what he does ANYWAY.

•  

• Kelsier might be a narcissist; I used him for comparison. He certainly has more of the elements of it (more so than ASPD, btw.) I put a K by the ones that fit him. He gets 5 easily, and I can argue two more. He gets one of the four, possibly 2 (prior to the Pits he really had no long term goals.) Grandiose and attention seeking is a very accurate description of him.

Edited December 2, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613

[StormingTexan he/him]

Quote

an arcane symbol, remind Dusk vaguely of a bird in flight, etched the front of the breastplate.

 

The Skybreaker symbol looks a like a bird in flight to me. The Windrunner as well but a little less to me. I think that and the question about local laws are a pretty dead give away.

 

Skybreakers_glyph.svg

Edited December 10, 2020 by StormingTexan