Cause of the Recreance(ROW spoilers)

[AonDio]

Having just finished reading ROW and the cause for the Recreance still a mystery I've developed a theory.

The Recreance was a voluntary event of both radiants and spren. It seems clear that was to prevent Roshar from having the same fate as Ashyn. A number of revelations are important:

1. At least in part, the fate of Ashyn was due to the fact that the Surges were unbound by oaths.
2. With the death of Honor, there is no one to curtail/restrict Ishar in the use of his powers

My theory is that the capture of Bo-Ado-Mishram(probably misspelled)  after Honor's death led to the revelation that the Bondsmiths were no longer bound and could in fact cause the destruction seen on Ashyn. I am unsure whether it was the capture itself or the fact that the capture was possible meant the Bondmiths powers were unbound.

Happy to be shot down

[Blacksmithki]

13 hours ago, TruthWatcherOz said:

Having just finished reading ROW and the cause for the Recreance still a mystery I've developed a theory.

The Recreance was a voluntary event of both radiants and spren. It seems clear that was to prevent Roshar from having the same fate as Ashyn. A number of revelations are important:

1. At least in part, the fate of Ashyn was due to the fact that the Surges were unbound by oaths.
2. With the death of Honor, there is no one to curtail/restrict Ishar in the use of his powers

My theory is that the capture of Bo-Ado-Mishram(probably misspelled)  after Honor's death led to the revelation that the Bondsmiths were no longer bound and could in fact cause the destruction seen on Ashyn. I am unsure whether it was the capture itself or the fact that the capture was possible meant the Bondmiths powers were unbound.

Happy to be shot down

Here's my problem with all of the theories i've seen so far.

For the most part, they don't explain why every single radiant, of every single order (except skybreakers), decided to abandon their oaths more or less at once.

For example, people have suggested that they were horrified at the damage done to the singers, but there would have been elsecallers, who with a 'ends justify the means' (macivellian right?) mindset would have seen it as a means of ending a war that threatened to destroy both humans and singers.

People have suggested it was because of the stormfather ranting about them destroying Ashyn with the dawnshards, but surely some stubborn fools would have thought themselves above such problems.

If it's because of the dangers of the bondsmiths, unless the only way to stop them was for everyone to abandon their oaths, why would they? And why would that stop the threat? Why not just the bondsmiths leave their oaths?

If it's loosing the trust of the sibling and being kicked out of the tower, sure some people would leave, but not all?

I mean, i just don't see why it would be such a coordinated, united action based on the theories i've seen.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Blacksmithki

[the_archduke]

I suspect it has to do with the Shattered Plains.  Narak was destroyed intentionally using massive surgebinding.  The Listener songs claim it was not them that did the deed.  This almost certainly happened during the False Desolation, if the details are in the Listener songs.  The Radiants, horrified that such acts would continue must have met together and all agreed to what would become known as the Recreance.  The Spren might have thought they would simply return to the CR and lose what they had gained form the Nahel bond.  But the capture of Ba Ado MIshram changed something, and the bond breaking killed the spren.  The Radiants, horrified further at the unexpected deaths of their spren, slunk from the word stage and passed on in obscurity.  

[Blacksmithki]

11 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

I suspect it has to do with the Shattered Plains.  Narak was destroyed intentionally using massive surgebinding.  The Listener songs claim it was not them that did the deed.  This almost certainly happened during the False Desolation, if the details are in the Listener songs.  The Radiants, horrified that such acts would continue must have met together and all agreed to what would become known as the Recreance.  The Spren might have thought they would simply return to the CR and lose what they had gained form the Nahel bond.  But the capture of Ba Ado MIshram changed something, and the bond breaking killed the spren.  The Radiants, horrified further at the unexpected deaths of their spren, slunk from the word stage and passed on in obscurity.  

It could also just be that the shattered plains are where BAM was captured. That would explain the massive magical destruction. I seriously wonder what sound would have caused that pattern, and if maybe sounds can be used for more then just the few means of manipulating light we know about.

[silver-the-ridgerunner]

What if Honor did not wish to beat Odium, but just to fight him?

What if he was content with the endless cycles of the Desolations?

What if there is honor in battle, and so this single-minded Shard was happy with battles evermore?

What if the Radiants learned of this, and they decided they didn't want to be part of his little agreement - his Job-like wager - any more?

[Blacksmithki]

42 minutes ago, silver-the-thruhiker said:

What if Honor did not wish to beat Odium, but just to fight him?

What if he was content with the endless cycles of the Desolations?

What if there is honor in battle, and so this single-minded Shard was happy with battles evermore?

What if the Radiants learned of this, and they decided they didn't want to be part of his little agreement - his Job-like wager - any more?

That's honestly one of the more plausable theories i've seen, because it actually explains why all the radiants left their oaths. It was a coordinated attempt to destroy Honour as the only thing they could actually do against him. (I'm Canadian, so should i call him Honour or Honor? It's strange.)

My main problem with almost all theories is just why every radiant leaves. For example if it was to stop the destruction seen on Ashyn, there would be some who were stubborn and stayed, or if it was because of the bondsmiths, why everyone else? It couldn't have been Ishar he only just got back his blade and therefore his powers.

[+robardin]

21 hours ago, TruthWatcherOz said:

Having just finished reading ROW and the cause for the Recreance still a mystery I've developed a theory.

The Recreance was a voluntary event of both radiants and spren. It seems clear that was to prevent Roshar from having the same fate as Ashyn. A number of revelations are important:

1. At least in part, the fate of Ashyn was due to the fact that the Surges were unbound by oaths.
2. With the death of Honor, there is no one to curtail/restrict Ishar in the use of his powers

My theory is that the capture of Bo-Ado-Mishram(probably misspelled)  after Honor's death led to the revelation that the Bondsmiths were no longer bound and could in fact cause the destruction seen on Ashyn. I am unsure whether it was the capture itself or the fact that the capture was possible meant the Bondmiths powers were unbound.

Happy to be shot down

The Recreance must have happened BEFORE the death of Honor. Why? Because there was an Honorvision recording left with the Stormfather for the Bondsmith of the Final Desolation to view that included it, the one at Feverstone Keep.

However, I think you're thinking along the right lines. Something about what Melishi intended to do to bind B-A-M was something that upset the Sibling enough to break their bond before it happened, resulting in their "slumbering". And according to Kelek, who was there with Nale when it happened (according to a spren in Shadesmar, was it?), that binding not only had the side effect of zombifying all parsh Connected to B-A-M (but sparing the listeners, who had rejected that bond and fled service), it somehow also affected the Radiants because deadeye spren from broken oaths had never happened before (and surely, Radiants had broken or backslid on oaths before then).

And when Maya spoke of the Recreance as a joint decision, she said they had not realized "death" would be the result. Only "pain".

There's a big ball of Connection in there with B-A-M that has to do with "the power of oaths" - something about the Oathpact, or something like it, that had a symmetry to it, such that it pulled in that which bound the parsh to B-A-M for Voidlight but also pulled in some part of that which bound the Radiants and their spren to their oaths.

And I think you're right - somehow, Melishi's act crossed a line that ought not to have been crossed, and perhaps was not previously able to be crossed; a line that Honor used to maintain but no longer did, being in death throes and instead "raving about the Dawnshards".

I guess with the parsh cut off from forms of power, continued Nahel bonds would upset that balance so much that some kind of runaway spiral of Surgebinding might happen? 

I mean, Nale sure seemed confident that humans forming Nahel bonds would certainly mean a balancing effect in Fused and Regals. Maybe that's not the crazy part of him being insane.

[Nef]

The Stormfather does say something along of the lines of Honor loving humans and sacrificing himself for their sake. At face value, that statement doesn't really fit with Honor wishing for endless cycle of warfare.

There have been various warrior cultures that have a strong honor system, so I understand the theory. That said, soldiers also value honor (at least in an army with a good culture). The distinction between a soldier and a warrior being the former fights to live/protect, the latter lives to fight. Soldiers wish for the end of conflict, warriors don't.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Nef

[Stigmadiabolicum]

I totally agree with the poster saying weve yet to see a comprehensive explanation for why all radiants would be in agreement on this, unless like the gambit against the alliance with dalinar, each piece affected a different order, honors raving about Ashyn and the dawnshards/binding of BAM/etc, different orders came to the same conclusion but because of different reasons, plus they werent needed anymore, and it wasnt worth the risk. 

As far as why binding BAM affected all spren like the sibling and making deadeyes

We learned in RoW that odium now has a true tone of Roshar, the sibling sees it as foreign but even though he doesnt like investing, its happened

So removing BAM and severing that would affect all of Roshar deeply, and my personal theory ive agreed with is whatever BAM was before being unmade is a big factor, spren of connection or tones, something that was deeply linked to the world like stormfather, and even though she was unmade it still caused a big impact, saving that maybe shed just done some exploit to grant voidlight and forms of power, and it led to repercussions, likely also leading to the everstorm idea 

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12 minutes ago, Stigmadiabolicum said:

I totally agree ... the everstorm idea 

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Edited July 26, 2023 by Treamayne

[Hatman]

On 11/20/2020 at 4:49 PM, the_archduke said:

I suspect it has to do with the Shattered Plains.  Narak was destroyed intentionally using massive surgebinding.  The Listener songs claim it was not them that did the deed.  This almost certainly happened during the False Desolation, if the details are in the Listener songs.  

Doesn't the Prelude in book 1 indicate that the Shattered Plains were shattered during one of the actual desolations? 

[Firesong]

2 hours ago, Hatman said:

Doesn't the Prelude in book 1 indicate that the Shattered Plains were shattered during one of the actual desolations? 

Read it again, no, it does not. There is no implication they are at the Shattered Plains, and the description only very vaguely matches it. I think they would bring up the distinguishing features of the plains if it was them. I also feel it would be unlikely for the Shin to get ahold of all the Honorblades if they left them in the Plains. They refuse to walk across stone, and that is one big continent of stone that separates them. 

My theory is that the Honorblades were left in what is now Shinovar, which would explain why the Shin got ahold of them. I also believe they would feel some connection to Shinovar as it is where humanity landed on Roshar, so I feel if they left the Honorblades anywhere, it would be there. But I guess this also assumes that they had the same beliefs of not walking over stone by the time of the Last Desolation.

[alder24]

18 hours ago, Hatman said:

Doesn't the Prelude in book 1 indicate that the Shattered Plains were shattered during one of the actual desolations? 

Listeners' songs said it happened before the Last Desolation and it has to be true, as the Shattered Plains was the region where the Last Legion fought and abandoned their forms during or before the Last Desolation. By this time the Shattered Plains would already exist and be left alone.

15 hours ago, Firesong said:

Read it again, no, it does not. There is no implication they are at the Shattered Plains, and the description only very vaguely matches it. I think they would bring up the distinguishing features of the plains if it was them. I also feel it would be unlikely for the Shin to get ahold of all the Honorblades if they left them in the Plains. They refuse to walk across stone, and that is one big continent of stone that separates them. 

My theory is that the Honorblades were left in what is now Shinovar, which would explain why the Shin got ahold of them. I also believe they would feel some connection to Shinovar as it is where humanity landed on Roshar, so I feel if they left the Honorblades anywhere, it would be there. But I guess this also assumes that they had the same beliefs of not walking over stone by the time of the Last Desolation.

This area definitely isn't the Shattered Plains, but I disagree with you about it being Shinovar. The description of this area is full of stones and rock, not soil and grass. This isn't Shinovar. 

Quote

Kalak rounded a rocky stone ridge [...]

The plain was a place of misshapen rock and stone, natural pillars rising around him, bodies littering the ground. Few plants lived here.
The stone ridges and mounds bore numerous scars. Some were shattered, blasted-out sections where Surgebinders had fought. Less frequently, he passed cracked, oddly shaped hollows where thunderclasts had ripped themselves free of the stone to join the fray. [...]

Seven magnicent swords stood proudly here, driven point-rst into the stone ground.

Shins were present on that battlefield, they were walking on the stone. It was a Shin that talked in the voice of Honor and Dalinar was in the body of a Shin. I suspect that this rule was a more recent thing, developed after Shin invasions where they invaded Roshar with Honorblades (we don't know when it was), but definitely before the Recreance. Or this rule was lifted during Desolations.

[Firesong]

38 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Listeners' songs said it happened before the Last Desolation and it has to be true, as the Shattered Plains was the region where the Last Legion fought and abandoned their forms during or before the Last Desolation. By this time the Shattered Plains would already exist and be left alone.

This area definitely isn't the Shattered Plains, but I disagree with you about it being Shinovar. The description of this area is full of stones and rock, not soil and grass. This isn't Shinovar. 

Shins were present on that battlefield, they were walking on the stone. It was a Shin that talked in the voice of Honor and Dalinar was in the body of a Shin. I suspect that this rule was a more recent thing, developed after Shin invasions where they invaded Roshar with Honorblades (we don't know when it was), but definitely before the Recreance. Or this rule was lifted during Desolations.

On the Shinovar thing, yeah, you could be totally right. My interpretation was just about a lot of the soil being pushed away and destroyed, razing an area of the land due to like, the Dustbringers and Thunderclasts. 

I do wonder if Thunderclasts are corrupted versions of the stonespren that the Shin worship. If they are, I bet we would be getting answers in Book 5. Thunderclasts just really interest me as they are so weird and mysterious.