Lirin Hate Thread

[Kingsdaughter613]

19 minutes ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

I think the fact we go so little of Lirins thoughts about Tian speaks volumes about their relationship, Liran made it very clear that his focus was solely on Kaladins future, giving him zero say in it. With Tian, he’s just like, yeah do whatever.

We didn’t see his thoughts at all; we only saw Kaladin’s. We have no idea how Lirin interacted with Tien outside of Kaladin’s memories. The flashbacks focused on Kaladin’s relationships, not Lirin’s.

Honestly, you could say the same for Hesina’s interactions with Tien. Kaladin didn’t see much of those, so OBVIOUSLY they didn’t happen, right? And apparently Hesina and Lirin didn’t talk much during Kal’s childhood.

[Seloun]

4 hours ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

When Kaladin talks to a drunk Lirin, he moans that "he never should have come back to this tiny, backward, foolish town", and that "They don't want me here. They never did." So why did you stay Lirin, keeping your family in misery, no matter how much overwhelming evidence was screaming to leave? Even pre-Roshone, it seems everyone else in the family would've been su-uuper good with leaving Hearthstone. But, nooooo. Lirin couldn't leave, acting like he was doing it out of his duty as a surgeon to a town that didn't have anyone else. Even if that was true, he's still putting the best interests of his family second to his own interests. And besides, I think he's just hiding behind that duty. Lirin stayed know Hearthstone out of service to his ego and nothing more. He needed to be the person everyone depended on. Greatshell in a small pond. Lirin always chooses Lirin.

In that scene, Lirin is clearly feeling sorry for himself and exaggerating for effect. The rest of the scene - where he confronts the townsfolk - and a later scene helps clarify this issue some more, and discusses the very issue of moving away from the town:

Quote

“Why didn’t you want us to know about this?” Kal asked.

“I wasn’t certain I’d go.”

“What else would you do?”

“Move away,” Lirin said. “Take you to Kharbranth and escape this town, this kingdom, and Roshone’s petty grudges.”

Kal blinked in shock. He’d never thought of that. Suddenly everything seemed to expand. His future changed, wrapping upon itself, folding into a new form entirely. Father, Mother, Tien … with him. “Really?”

Lirin nodded absently. “Even if we didn’t go to Kharbranth, I’m sure many Alethi towns would welcome us. Most have never had a surgeon to care for them. They do the best they can with local men who learned most of what they know from superstition or working on the occasional wounded chull. We could even move to Kholinar; I’m skilled enough to get work as a physician’s assistant there.”

“Why don’t we go, then? Why haven’t we gone?”

Lirin watched out the window. “I don’t know. We should leave. It makes sense. We have the money. We aren’t wanted here. The citylord hates us, the people mistrust us, the Stormfather himself seems inclined to knock us down.” There was something in Lirin’s voice. Regret?

“I tried very hard to leave once,” Lirin said, more softly. “But there’s a tie between a man’s home and his heart. I’ve cared for these people, Kal. Delivered their children, set their bones, healed their scrapes. You’ve seen the worst of them, these last few years, but there was a time before that, a good time.” He turned to Kal, clasping his hands in front of him, the carriage rattling. “They’re mine, son. And I’m theirs. They’re my responsibility, now that Wistiow has gone. I can’t leave them to Roshone.”

“Even if they like what he’s doing?”

“Particularly because of that.” Lirin raised a hand to his head. “Stormfather. It sounds more foolish now that I say it.”

“No. I understand. I think.” Kal shrugged. “I guess, well, they still come to us when they’re hurt. They complain about how unnatural it is to cut into a person, but they still come. I used to wonder why.”

“And did you come to a conclusion?”

“Kind of. I decided that in the end, they’d rather be alive to curse at you a few more days. It’s what they do. Just like healing them is what you do. And they used to give you money. A man can say all kinds of things, but where he sets his spheres, that’s where his heart is.” Kal frowned. “I guess they did appreciate you.”

Lirin smiled. “Wise words. I keep forgetting that you’re nearly a man, Kal. When did you go and grow up on me?”

That night when we were nearly robbed, Kal thought immediately. That night when you shone light on the men outside, and showed that bravery had nothing to do with a spear held in battle.

“You’re wrong about one thing, though,” Lirin said. “You told me that they did appreciate me. But they still do. Oh, they grumble—they’ve always done that. But they also leave food for us.”

Kal started. “They do?”

“How do you think we’ve been eating these last four months?”

“But—”

“They’re frightened of Roshone, so they’re quiet about it. They left it for your mother when she went to clean or put it in the rain barrel when it’s empty.”

“They tried to rob us.”

“And those very men were among the ones who gave us food as well.”

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 543). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

(emphasis mine)

One sentence expressed in frustration isn't a perfect reflection of the situation. There's clearly some level of affection/respect between the townsfolk and Lirin. Leaving them is abandoning them; the fact that Lirin could easily find a job elsewhere speaks to the rarity of competent medical professionals. Even if they could somehow find another physician, what is the likelihood they would provide similar level of care for a similar cost?

It's weird to say that helping the townsfolk is somehow putting Lirin's interest over his family's. You could argue that he's putting the townsfolk's interest over his family's (though even that is not quite so cut and dried) but it's not reasonable to simply ignore the benefit Lirin's services bring to the townsfolk. Regardless of whether or not Lirin has ulterior motives for staying (and again, this is far from obvious), his presence does benefit the townsfolk.

Quote

 

4 hours ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

And Lirin wasn't just a bad dad to Kaladin. Tien couldn't be a surgeon, so he never received the level of attention that Kaladin did. And because Lirin didn't pay as much attention to Tien, Tien got sent to war. Directly. Lirin knew conscription law well enough to know that Kaladin would be protected from that sort of revenge but it never crossed his mind that Tien wouldn't be. If you live in warfaring Alethkar, under a city lord who hates you, thinks you killed his son, and obviously wants revenge, maybe pay attention to how conscription law applies to all of your sons and not just the one that you want to be your generational avatar? He never considered that Tien wasn't protected because he never considered Tien much at all.

Blaming Lirin for Tien getting conscripted is almost literally victim blaming. Let's be clear: the reason Tien gets conscripted is because of Roshone. 

Assigning responsibility for Tien getting conscripted to Lirin requires, among other things, for Lirin to have somehow expected conscription to occur in the first place. No one in town expected this:

Quote

Amaram stepped forward to speak.

“You have a fine town here,” Amaram said to the gathered darkeyes. He had a strong, deep voice. “Thank you for hosting me.”

Kaladin frowned, glancing at the other townspeople. They seemed as confused as he by the statement.

“Normally,” Amaram said, “I would leave this task to one of my subordinate officers. But as I was visiting with my cousin, I decided to come down in person. It is not so onerous a task that I need delegate it.”

“Excuse me, Brightlord,” said Callins, one of the farmers. “But what duty is that?”

“Why, recruitment, good farmer,” Amaram said, nodding to Alaxia, who stepped forward with a sheet of paper strapped to a board. “The king took most of our armies with him on his quest to fulfill the Vengeance Pact. My forces are undermanned, and it has become necessary to recruit young men from each town or village we pass. I do this with volunteers whenever possible.”

The townspeople fell still. Boys talked of running off to the army, but few of them would actually do it. Hearthstone’s duty was to provide food.

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (pp. 622-623). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Lirin not specifically mentioning Tien with respect to the immunity from conscription is because he's surprised like everyone else in town, and he's working through the possible consequences in real time with the rest of the townsfolk. Suggesting that Lirin should have predicted that this was going to occur and pre-emptively move away is applying a ridiculous standard to Lirin. Here's a counterpoint: if this was so likely and predictable, why didn't Hesina already think of it and have discussed it with Lirin beforehand? Or did she also 'not consider Tien much at all?'

4 hours ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

I don't need to break down Lirin's awfulness from RoW because it all stems from the same place as above. Instead of making horrible choices in regards to staying in Hearthstone in the name of his duty as a surgeon, he's now making horrible choices in regards to his attitude towards Kaladin in the name of his duty as a pacifist. BS. You can still be a pacifist during the literal war of armageddon but you don't get to actively be disgusted with those who choose to do otherwise, once again, in the literal war of armageddon. But even though Kaladin did what he did (and consequentially became what he became) because he was trying to save Tien (and Lirin's ass - because once again, Tien getting conscripted was 100% Lirin's fault), Lirin won't accept what Kaladin is, or what he has done. Unless, of course, he goes back to being what Lirin wants him to be. Only then, would Kaladin be allowed to earn his love back.

There's a number of signs that Kaladin's desire for fighting is not quite as pure as it may seem at first glance:

Quote

“Dalinar offered to let me train new Radiants,” Kaladin said. “I don’t think I could stand that—seeing them fly off to battle without me. But I thought maybe I could train regular soldiers again. That might not hurt as much.”

“And you think you belong with us?”

“I … Yes.”

“Prove it,” Zahel said, snapping a few scarves off the line. “Land a strike on me.”

...

I think we’re losing, Syl said. To a guy wielding something he found in Adolin’s sock drawer.

Kaladin grunted, but a part of him was excited. Frustrating as Zahel could be, he was an excellent fighter—and he tested Kaladin in ways he’d never seen before. That was the sort of training he needed in order to beat the Fused.

...

“It wasn’t a fight about winning or losing,” Zahel said. “You’re not unwelcome because you lost; you’re unwelcome because you don’t belong with us.” He whipped a sheet in the air, then pinned it in place. “You love the fight, Kaladin. Not with the Thrill that Dalinar once felt, or even with the anticipation of a dandy going to a duel.

“You love it because it’s part of you. It’s your mistress, your passion, your lifeblood. You’d find the daily training unsatisfying. You’d thirst for something more. You’d eventually turn and leave, and that would put you in a worse position than if you’d never started.”

He tossed his scarf at Kaladin’s feet. Though it must have been a different scarf, for the one he’d started with had been bright red, and this one was dull grey.

“Return when you hate the fight,” Zahel said. “Truly hate it.” He walked off between the sheets.

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

(emphasis mine)

We can see in Kaladin's thoughts a bit of a slip - his thoughts are that he needs to train with Zahel to be able to beat the Fused, something which he's supposed to have moved on from. This is ultimately why Zahel ends up rejecting Kaladin. Kaladin's propensity for violence and his enjoyment of it are real potential issues and Lirin's concern about it is not unfounded.

Lirin was out of line when he called Kaladin a monster. it turns out though that people get emotional and can say hurtful things to people they love. We recognize that love by seeing them make up and move beyond it; this is precisely what occurs after Hesina challenges Lirin to look at Kaladin's position. I covered this in the earlier post in the thread.

To reiterate that post (and the main gist of this one as well): Lirin is not perfect, but to consider him significantly worse than any other character in the series require you to hold him to an absurd standard.

[Bigmikey357]

Sorry,  haven't read all the posts yet but still had to add my 2 cents. I remember when I first read the end of part 2, driving to work (audiobook) and I had to pull over and scream F$#k You Lirin! at the top of my lungs, laughing in incredulity while tears stung my eyes. 

Brandon wrote a great character,  full of nuance and realism. And I appreciate it greatly.  Still, I  despise Lirin as I'm supposed to.  Mission accomplished.  Would I like him more if he wasn't being overwhelmingly critical of one of my favorite characters?  If we didn't know the struggles Kaladin went through to not only survive but thrive?  Maybe. Yet as a father I cannot imagine saying something so hurtful to my son. And as a child to a father who was 100% supportive of my right to make decisions even when he didn't always agree with them, I can imagine how much words like that from him would have destroyed me. And that makes me hate him even more. Luckily unlike Moash he does have a chance to do better in my eyes,  has already kinda started.  But he's going to have to show me more than what I saw in part 5 for me to be on board again. 

[Greywatch]

7 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Would I like him more if he wasn't being overwhelmingly critical of one of my favorite characters?  If we didn't know the struggles Kaladin went through to not only survive but thrive?  Maybe. Yet as a father I cannot imagine saying something so hurtful to my son. And as a child to a father who was 100% supportive of my right to make decisions even when he didn't always agree with them, I can imagine how much words like that from him would have destroyed me. And that makes me hate him even more.

Yeah, this resonates with me. I don't care about comparing Lirin favourably or not against other characters to see who is "better" or "worse". All I know is, for such a "good" person, if my dad ever said to me what Lirin said to Kaladin, our relationship would be over.

[Georion]

Hey, I've got a Lirin related question and I dont know where else to ask, dont want to make a separate thread for it.

Did Lirin swear a radiant oath, while the spren of Urithiru were blacked out? When they had a fight with Kaladin, one of his replies definitely sounded like one, but I was too caught up in the moment to reflect on it, or compare it to the other known oaths, and now I cant even find the paragraph. I kinda thought he'll end up bounding the Sibling because I could see some connections between their personalities and behavior, but alas no.

It has been bugging me since. Does anyone remember which chapter it was?

[Loialty loailty loailty]

Lirin is a well written character because I hate him a lot. He was by far my least favorite character in this book and I’d honestly like to see more hesina and less lirin because he kinda sucks even taking the ending into account because despite the glyph on his head kaladin still apologized first. Side not was extremely happy to see Tien protect Kaladin and give him strength. 

[Frustration]

On 12/1/2020 at 7:38 PM, NotBurtReynolds said:

Kaladin only “chose” to go to war in response to Lirin 

Uhm, no.

Lirin is not responsible for Roshons evil.

He might be a poor father because of it(and stealing)

but that does not make him a bad person, nor the barer of Roshons sins.

[SomeRandomPeasant]

On 12/4/2020 at 9:09 AM, Greywatch said:

I don't care about comparing Lirin favourably or not against other characters to see who is "better" or "worse". All I know is, for such a "good" person, if my dad ever said to me what Lirin said to Kaladin, our relationship would be over.

I don't think the Kaladin and Lirin relationship is as black and white as that.

I remember when I came out to my mother who, at the time, was the only family I had living in the United States.  She wouldn't speak to me for almost a year.  I could have taken that from anyone else in the world, but not from her.  It took years of very real effort to regain some of the same happiness we used to have. It is only now, with several more years of separation from that time, can I admit that even though she made some serious mistakes, I still am comfortable in saying that she is still a "good" person.  She is the most hardworking person I know and she did everything in her power to earn a living.  She put up with far more than she deserved and had the strength to raise a family as a single mother.  I think people can still be "good" people even if they don't always do the right thing.

[Seloun]

On 12/5/2020 at 3:25 AM, Georion said:

Hey, I've got a Lirin related question and I dont know where else to ask, dont want to make a separate thread for it.

Did Lirin swear a radiant oath, while the spren of Urithiru were blacked out? When they had a fight with Kaladin, one of his replies definitely sounded like one, but I was too caught up in the moment to reflect on it, or compare it to the other known oaths, and now I cant even find the paragraph. I kinda thought he'll end up bounding the Sibling because I could see some connections between their personalities and behavior, but alas no.

It has been bugging me since. Does anyone remember which chapter it was?

It's not a Radiant oath, but I believe you're referring to this:

Quote

“I can and will!” Lirin shouted, standing up. “Because I will take responsibility for what I’ve done! I will work within whatever confines I must in order to protect people! I have taken oaths not to harm!” He grimaced, sickened. “Oh, Almighty. You murdered a man inside my home.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Chapter 43 ('Men and Monsters')

[Honorless]

Okay, so while Lirin's perspective is understandable, the sheer amount of damage he could've done to his own son when he was very vulnerable, disowning him, calling him a monster, telling him to be an obedient slave? That is well past the point of "are we cool yet?". I do not like him and he gets a thumbs down from me, actually he gets some other gesture that Lopen and Rua would approve of but I'll refrain.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Honorless
typo

[Rushu42]

I think that Lirin is a good man but a poor father. His ideals are admirable, if occasionally shortsighted, and he is by no means perfect, but he's still a good man. His interactions with Kaladin are a big blind spot - the truth is, at this point he doesn't know his son any more. Kaladin changed hugely while Lirin thought he was dead, and Lirin is still coming to terms with that. But, because he is a good man, I believe that he can change. He's not there yet, but he can be.

[stormlore]

Lirin has the soul of a coward.  There are lots of people like him, rational, logical, but cowards.

Evil flourishes when good men do nothing.  Lirin is the man that will do nothing. 

[Shaukan-son-Hasweth]

On a personal level I started to dislike Lirin too. I was a little dissapointed because I really liked him in book 1.

But I think he's a well written Character and The clash of worldviews between him and kaladin are very relatable to me.

[NameIess]

So, I think that Lirin is very similar to Dalinar, in that he wants his son to be him but better. Dalinar likely would have yelled at Adolin if Adolin had murdered Ialia right in front of him. We see that at the end of RoW, Lirin comes to terms with the fact that Kaladin can be his own person and still be a good person, which is more than Dalinar has done. 

[Wind_Breaker]

Lirin has kind of a Skypbreaker personality / philosophy I guess. What do you think? He could get along with both Szeth and Nale.

[IllNsickly]

Nope. 
 

Lirin gets absolutely ZERO latitude from me. A man who can look at his son and say the things that he did from a position of simple ideology is simply a terrible person.

Irredeemable.

Lirin is a terrible person trying to masquerade as a Pacifist.

[Kingsdaughter613]

2 hours ago, Wind_Breaker said:

Lirin has kind of a Skypbreaker personality / philosophy I guess. What do you think? He could get along with both Szeth and Nale.

I think he would make an excellent Skybreaker.

[Wind_Breaker]

On 12/12/2020 at 4:33 PM, IllNsickly said:

Nope. 
 

Lirin gets absolutely ZERO latitude from me. A man who can look at his son and say the things that he did from a position of simple ideology is simply a terrible person.

Irredeemable.

Lirin is a terrible person trying to masquerade as a Pacifist.

I'm trying to figure out what makes the difference in opinions here. The reactions in this thread can be summarized as

1. Lirin is understandable (/he overreacted/didn't mean it/is still a loving parent etc.)

2. I hate him for what he said to Kaladin. (He potentially did unforgivable damage)

a) The two attitudes are probably about how we'd deal with a fight in which a parent tells us we are monsters. Or with criticism in general. I am part of the Lirin is still a cool character and understandable crew. Like, I would obviously be super angry at both my parents, but since my mom and I have heated discussions sometimes, and very different conflict styles, I would know we'd figure this out eventually, it was said out of anger. To make me back down maybe, or see the magnitude of the parent's hurt. I'd be hurt and then rationalize it.

b ) I don't feel the need to jump to Kaladin's defense either. That is another thing I suppose about the f* Lirin crowd: You want to protect Kaladin, who is down already, and gets called a pretty condemning thing about his character. Which can leave a pretty destructive mark on his identity.

Please feel free to throw in your thoughts, F* Lirin Crowd!

I once saw a discussion on Reddit about a rpg in which people also reacted to a certain decision in the game in that bipolar way. (Dragon Age Inquisition; gay upper class mage Dorian goes to meet someone, sees it's his father who tried to alter his sexual orientation with blood magic bc in their society, while you can live any sexuality you want, you, as an upper class person, have to produce heirs, and Dorian doesn't want to. Father wants to talk and apologize). Roughly the two discussed reactions were a) I encourage him to talk it out and then leave with me to calm down and think about it. The relationship with his father is one of Dorian's deepest wounds and he needs to address the man himself to have a chance at healing b ) I get him out immediately without giving his father a chance to speak. Dorian shouldn't suffer any more abuse, not a second of it. The redditors tried to find ties between how people had grown up, how their relations with their parents were, and how they decided in-game. I feel like this is very similar to the Lirin hate thread here.

@Kingsdaughter613  Me too! I'm curious to see whether Lirin will ever join any military effort. Doesn't look like it atm, but since not all Radiants necessarily fight all the time, I could imagine him as a Skybreaker who refuses to kill. That, again, would probably clash with Nale. And he probably wouldn't get too far with his oaths. Ad it will probably not happen anyway.

 

On 12/1/2020 at 2:13 PM, Bliev said:

Dalinar is the same as Lirin lol. He's fundamentally disappointed in his son's life choices and thinks he is treading down a dangerous path devoid of Honor. They're both dogmatic and rigid. Dalinar couldn't even look his sons in the eyes and admit he killed their mom. Look, I love me some Dalinar, but good dad he is not.  

Yet. Let's see if he can fix his relationship with Adolin in Book 5. 

Oh I agree completely!

[Kingsdaughter613]

6 minutes ago, Wind_Breaker said:

I'm trying to figure out what makes the difference in opinions here. The reactions in this thread can be summarized as

1. Lirin is understandable (/he overreacted/didn't mean it/is still a loving parent etc.)

2. I hate him for what he said to Kaladin. (He potentially did unforgivable damage)

a) The two attitudes are probably about how we'd deal with a fight in which a parent tells us we are monsters. Or with criticism in general. I am part of the Lirin is still a cool character and understandable crew. Like, I would obviously be super angry at both my parents, but since my mom and I have heated discussions sometimes, and very different conflict styles, I would know we'd figure this out eventually, it was said out of anger. To make me back down maybe, or see the magnitude of the parent's hurt. I'd be hurt and then rationalize it.

b ) I don't feel the need to jump to Kaladin's defense either. That is another thing I suppose about the f* Lirin crowd: You want to protect Kaladin, who is down already, and gets called a pretty condemning thing about his character. Which can leave a pretty destructive mark on his identity.

Please feel free to throw in your thoughts, F* Lirin Crowd!

I once saw a discussion on Reddit about a rpg in which people also reacted to a certain decision in the game in that bipolar way. (Dragon Age Inquisition; gay upper class mage Dorian goes to meet someone, sees it's his father who tried to alter his sexual orientation with blood magic bc in their society, while you can live any sexuality you want, you, as an upper class person, have to produce heirs, and Dorian doesn't want to. Father wants to talk and apologize). Roughly the two discussed reactions were a) I encourage him to talk it out and then leave with me to calm down and think about it. The relationship with his father is one of Dorian's deepest wounds and he needs to address the man himself to have a chance at healing b ) I get him out immediately without giving his father a chance to speak. Dorian shouldn't suffer any more abuse, not a second of it. The redditors tried to find ties between how people had grown up, how their relations with their parents were, and how they decided in-game. I feel like this is very similar to the Lirin hate thread here.

@Kingsdaughter613  Me too! I'm curious to see whether Lirin will ever join any military effort. Doesn't look like it atm, but since not all Radiants necessarily fight all the time, I could imagine him as a Skybreaker who refuses to kill. That, again, would probably clash with Nale. And he probably wouldn't get too far with his oaths. Ad it will probably not happen anyway.

There’s also option three: Lirin had a very understandable trauma response. I actually had less issue with that than some of his later statements in the infirmary, until I realized he thought Kaladin was already dead from his internal wounds at that point and that was his way of coping with it.

I don’t think Lirin could be a Nale Skybreaker. I think he could be an original type Skybreaker, which could include someone who followed the Pirates’ Code. I think he would reach his third Oath pretty quickly, and his Spren would help him find a more reasonable Crusade. His current one isn’t particularly workable.

I also love the idea of father and son in rival Orders.

[Wind_Breaker]

5 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

There’s also option three: Lirin had a very understandable trauma response. I actually had less issue with that than some of his later statements in the infirmary, until I realized he thought Kaladin was already dead from his internal wounds at that point and that was his way of coping with it.

I don’t think Lirin could be a Nale Skybreaker. I think he could be an original type Skybreaker, which could include someone who followed the Pirates’ Code. I think he would reach his third Oath pretty quickly, and his Spren would help him find a more reasonable Crusade. His current one isn’t particularly workable.

I also love the idea of father and son in rival Orders.

Trauma response: OHHHH yes. Yeah that makes sense too. (I had some vague Well Lirin is also uprooted and very stressed out in my head, but I didn't get to the point of seeing that he just suffered soem severe trauma).

Pirate Code: You mean the original Skybreakers put together a long list of codes of conduct? Or every Skybreaker has to find their individual code and live according to it?

Yeah that convinces me. I am pretty hooked on Skybreaker!Lirin now lol. I also hope we see some more of how people interact when the orders have been established for a while, and group dynamics settle in. There was some Hogwarts Houses style split, as we know from WoR (the people from Order X are all like that, and Windrunners and Skybreakers ended up smashing each other's heads in because of serious moral disagreements).

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 minute ago, Wind_Breaker said:

Trauma response: OHHHH yes. Yeah that makes sense too. (I had some vague Well Lirin is also uprooted and very stressed out in my head, but I didn't get to the point of seeing that he just suffered soem severe trauma).

Pirate Code: You mean the original Skybreakers put together a long list of codes of conduct? Or every Skybreaker has to find their individual code and live according to it?

Yeah that convinces me. I am pretty hooked on Skybreaker!Lirin now lol. I also hope we see some more of how people interact when the orders have been established for a while, and group dynamics settle in. There was some Hogwarts Houses style split, as we know from WoR (the people from Order X are all like that, and Windrunners and Skybreakers ended up smashing each other's heads in because of serious moral disagreements).

Every Skybreaker needs to pledge themselves to a code. Although they probably did the other thing too, it wasn’t a prerequisite.

[Wind_Breaker]

2 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Every Skybreaker needs to pledge themselves to a code. Although they probably did the other thing too, it wasn’t a prerequisite.

Oh right! Sooo Lirin would probably pledge himself to - hm. He IS a kind of protector. He IS a pretty stern judge of killers, but also wants to help everyone equally if they ask him. I think that would stay with him. His new crusade would probably be about the little man / everyone / the simple people and less about big players (like Szeth's crusade against the Shin guys in power which he's planning)

[Kingsdaughter613]

4 minutes ago, Wind_Breaker said:

Oh right! Sooo Lirin would probably pledge himself to - hm. He IS a kind of protector. He IS a pretty stern judge of killers, but also wants to help everyone equally if they ask him. I think that would stay with him. His new crusade would probably be about the little man / everyone / the simple people and less about big players (like Szeth's crusade against the Shin guys in power which he's planning)

Lirin is pledged to the Hippocratic oath, which he interprets as forbidding violence.

He’s currently running a one man war against all violence, which is not workable. I think a Spren would help him figure out a more feasible Crusade.

[Lirins hand]

It’s seemed pretty obvious to me ever since WoK that Lirin has his own PTSD issue, from before his sons were conscripted.  For him, it has made him renounce all violence as evil.  It reads as very reactionary because it is so dogmatic and extreme, not a lifestyle choice come up with over tea and biscuits that can be discussed.  I think there is a lot more to his story than many here are giving him credit for.  The lashing out at Kal killing someone in front of him in his surgery/sanctuary is just another hint.  Is he living a flashback right there?  
 

Every parent has issues and his are significant but I think there are reasons we don’t know about yet.  He is suffering as well, not just dealing out pain for Kal.

[Aspiring Writer]

On 11/19/2020 at 7:20 AM, Branf said:

So I have a podcast with a friend of mine where we rate fictional dads on their parenting skills (niche I know) and I did Dalinar, Gavilar and Lirin just before Rhythm of War came out. I want to go back and re-record because I really dislike Lirin now a lot more than I did before, I was hoping he'd grow a lot in this book but it's clear he still has a long way to go even after his little change of heart at the end.

You can try and instill the values and ideals you see as important in your children, but once they are adults you have to accept them as who they are and who they turned out to be. Anything else is just going to hurt them.

Besides his relationship with Kaladin I also massively disagree with his stance on pacifism. He needs a way more nuanced understanding of what violence is, its not just physical harm, and I think it's quite childish to put physical violence on a pedastal as the worst possible thing ever that trumps all other considerations including pschological harm/poverty/slavery etc.

Yeah, but you have to admit it's realistic with real parents. I would know, my parents are the same, but with religion rather than pacifism and being a computer engineer rather than a doctor. It is shockingly relatable.