What's the loophole?

[bmcclure7]

On 11/17/2020 at 1:09 PM, Seloun said:

Wow. Book 4's HSQ is pretty absurd. I feel like there's a million new questions to ask now. First one, though, which seems somewhat tractable and perhaps the most immediately plot-relevant to the series...

What did Taravangian notice in the contract?

The specific wording of the contract:

However, this is a bit fuzzy since the additional clause that Wit mentions earlier presumably still holds, which seems to imply something about the original agreement still holds, as the final wording doesn't mention that bit specifically. The discussion about the said clause:

which definitely appears to apply, as in the Epilogue Taravangian!Odium notes he cannot harm Wit:

So that part still somehow seems to apply, which again in turn may mean something more than the 'final agreement' is actually part of the final agreement. Either that, or they're just working off of the intent that the 'final agreement' portion is merely an edit of the original contract - this seems like the most reasonable explanation. So let's assume that the 'final agreement' and the liaison clause constitute the entirety of the contract.

Wit actually suggests the most likely loophole (though talking about a different experience):

Ironically, this is to convince Jasnah that Rayse!Odium could be beaten, despite all of his advantages. So it's possible that a tie or a draw in the competition would be sufficient for Odium somehow. It's a bit unclear, since Taravangian refers to the solution as Dalinar failing, and Taravangian beating him, rather than Taravangian winning (Dalinar's victory being the end of conflict on Roshar, presumably, versus Odium's desire to not be trapped in the system; these aren't necessarily exclusive).

The problem is that there appears to be a lot of ways you could generate a draw:

1) Year was not specified. Technically this is true, but intent might not allow this to be an allowable loophole. There's also technically no mention of when the consequences will be enforced, but that's probably even less allowable in terms of intent.

2) Contest (which implies but may not be a 'fight') is 'to the death', which implies the contest will not be over until one of the champions die. If something that can't die is chosen, I'm not sure how this gets resolved. I was thinking about Fused at first, but I'm pretty sure they are defined to 'die' and just 'return', rather than not dying. But what about something like a spren? Although it looks like it might be possible for spren to actually die (and not just deadeye). Or alternatively, just someone who can escape the area without dying, or hide, or any other way to delay the death. I was thinking about something inanimate, but that is ruled out by...

3) Willing champion. This seems to imply whoever/whatever is chosen has to have the capacity to be willing, which probably rules out non-sentient beings. Might also allow for possibility of forfeit if the chosen champion could somehow be declared unwilling, although it's difficult to see how this could apply if Dalinar really chooses himself as his champion.

There might be other loopholes besides going for draw:

1) I/Rayse association. Doesn't really seem to work since Taravangian's thoughts seem to imply it was something Rayse could have done.

2) Somehow whoever wins doesn't actually matter. This implies that Taravangian might have seen something in the two 'common' conditions of the victory results (Odium is bound in the system, and he will stop hostilities and maintain peace), as those are explicitly identical in both victory conditions. Possibly something regarding 'my allies or our kingdoms' in some way?

3) Conditions are specified for Dalinar winning, and Odium winning, but not other possibilities. I don't think there's any way a third party could 'win', but would it be possible that both sides lose? If so, this might imply that Odium would be free; since both winning conditions involve Odium being trapped and the cessation of hostilities, no one winning might mean those specifically don't apply.

One final clue might be that Wit seems to stumble on a possible loophole, but only after the thought that Odium might not be Rayse comes up:

So it may be related to something Rayse would not have considered (e.g. too proud to 'lose', even to win). While it's possible what Wit's thinking of here is not related to Odium no longer being held by Rayse, this seems like the most plausible conclusion - he would likely have considered pretty much every other scenario already, but the epigraphs seem to make it clear the Wit essentially equates Rayse with Odium.

An aside to note is that the one big other condition that's attached to Odium right now is the promise to preserve Kharbranth:

It'd be interesting if this ended up coming back somehow (a champion from Kharbranth?), although given that Odium doesn't necessarily seem interested in wiping out humanity, this might end up being a moot point. But the irony of Taravangian managing to literally outwit himself would be such deliciousness that I can't help but hope that this works into it somehow.

 I think odiums champion will be a child.  This make sense with what Witt because  King T knows that Dalinar  would never kill child even at his worst,  As this is a fight to death Dalinar will have not lost but now also not a won  rendering the contract void.  It also makes  thematic sense,  The conflict between king T and Dalinar  has been all about ruling with honor vs the ends justified the means.

Edited November 21, 2020 by bmcclure7

[bmcclure7]

On 11/19/2020 at 5:56 PM, Oltux72 said:

But that is not what he wants. To a man like Taravangian that is peanuts. He wants to get out of the Rosharan system. He does not have to win. His loophole must not help him to win. He must get out of the battle of champions or get a result not covered in the agreement, like both combatants killing each other. Making Dalinar give up runs the chance of this counting as a victory.
Preferably he has to get out of the duel in such a way that it is a tactical loss to the Coalition, like killing Dalinar (again a mutual kill looks like an extremely attractive option) or destroying Urithiru (letting an enemy you must not harm onto the roof of your main base is a bad idea).

 No, the rules were quite explicit " to the death " if Dalinar forfeits  He has create a circumstance not covered within the contract not a loss but not a win. 

Edited November 21, 2020 by bmcclure7

[bmcclure7]

On 11/19/2020 at 10:38 AM, sentinel said:

Wit? An enemy who can't die by your hand, but who also can't harm you...

Has to be willing. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 No, the rules were quite explicit " to the death " if Dalinar forfeits  He has create a circumstance not covered within the contract not a loss but not a win. 

Like killing your opponent with a suicide attack. You are both dead. The duell is over. But there is no winner.

[LiftIRL]

I had a few ideas (the new contract not actually banishing Odium to braize or tying the Fused and the Voidspren, the fact Tarvi was not looking at the PAST- the wording of the contract itself but at the POSSIBILITIES- THE FUTURE- when he realized the loophole) but by the evidence gathered and by Ocams's razor, the Child solution or the Draw solution seem most likely. I particularly favour the Draw solution because both hoid's story and his narration in the epilogue both focus on the idea of a disasterous draw, and in the epilogue he has the "UNLESS" right after the phrase "no matter what".

Though it might be a false lead, something he intends for Odium to learn, if he predicted that his memories will be stolen like some shraders suggested in other threads.

 

I can TELL I will be thinking this issue over every night for years now, huh.

Edited November 22, 2020 by LiftIRL

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

This thread has sparked two ideas in my mind.

1. Dalinar would become a Fused if he loses, with his soul belonging to Odium. Leshwi is a Fused, and she presumably swore to obey Odium, yet she did whatever she wanted and went to the Listeners without further ado.

2. Considering the idea that Odium swore to spare Kharbranth inhabitants and their spouses, why doesn't Dalinar marry (just go poly) someone from the city for the challange, then divorce them if he wants. I'm sure there is someone of Honor in Kharbranth who would be willing to do this.

Running off point 2, why don't they just change laws in the city to make poly marriages legal and Kharbranth inhabitants marry hundreds of people via spanreed? Not sure if this was considered in another thread, I've been really off the forum between OB and RoW.

On 19/11/2020 at 9:50 PM, Karger said:

I do not think Dalinar could retain his connection to Honor and become a CS of Odium at the same time.  Leshwi says she can't even bond an ordinary spren.  Also death severed Szeth's bond with his Honorblade even though he did become a CS.

Leshwi said she doesn't think she can bond a spren, but I think it was only a supposition. 

On 20/11/2020 at 10:38 AM, ScavellTane said:

I think if Dalinar looses, technically Odium would also get Szeth/Nightblood if Szeth doesn't progress.

Creepy thought, and probably correct. Dalinar should make him transfer his Oath to someone else, and if he can't, order him to commit suicide upon losing the contest. But of course Dalinar would not do that. 

The more I think about it the more I think Honor's perfect champion would be Jasnah. She has the skills, the power, and the ruthlessness to win no matter what (so long as it is possible, ignoring posibilities like fighting a spren, or Odium himself, or Hoid).

[Karger he/him]

6 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

2. Considering the idea that Odium swore to spare Kharbranth inhabitants and their spouses, why doesn't Dalinar marry (just go poly) someone from the city for the challange, then divorce them if he wants. I'm sure there is someone of Honor in Kharbranth who would be willing to do this.

That is probably void right now as Taravangian did not hold up to his end of the bargain and instead betrayed Odium.

[Mercy he/him]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

That is probably void right now as Taravangian did not hold up to his end of the bargain and instead betrayed Odium.

Taravangian betrayed Rayse, not Odium. In a way, you could say he's working more closely with Odium than ever before. Indeed, the Odium seemed pleased that Taravangian was his new vessel.

[Karger he/him]

28 minutes ago, Mercy said:

Taravangian betrayed Rayse, not Odium. In a way, you could say he's working more closely with Odium than ever before. Indeed, the Odium seemed pleased that Taravangian was his new vessel.

The deal was still voided.  You can make a case for semantics but you are basically arguing that Taravangian would chose to honor a deal that he made with himself and weakens him.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 22.11.2020 at 5:37 PM, LiftIRL said:

I had a few ideas (the new contract not actually banishing Odium to braize or tying the Fused and the Voidspren, the fact Tarvi was not looking at the PAST- the wording of the contract itself but at the POSSIBILITIES- THE FUTURE- when he realized the loophole)

The future does include fulfilling the treaty, doesn't it?

On 22.11.2020 at 5:37 PM, LiftIRL said:

but by the evidence gathered and by Ocams's razor, the Child solution or the Draw solution seem most likely. I particularly favour the Draw solution because both hoid's story and his narration in the epilogue both focus on the idea of a disasterous draw, and in the epilogue he has the "UNLESS" right after the phrase "no matter what".

It seems to me that Odium also gets out of the contest if he can make the other side violate the agreement.

Part of the agreement is that Dalinar serve as a Fused. For that he has to be turned into a Cognitive Shadow. What if Dalinar is killed with an anti-Stormlight weapon? Is that the reason for the rushed weapons test El had to conduct?

[Xerun]

Someone on here was thinking Oroden/Gavinor would be Odium’s champion. I couldn’t see Rayse doing that as he’s more a crush the enemy into submission kinda guy. 
 

Todd though? I don’t think he’d even question it if it meant he wins. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

4 hours ago, Xerun said:

Someone on here was thinking Oroden/Gavinor would be Odium’s champion. I couldn’t see Rayse doing that as he’s more a crush the enemy into submission kinda guy. 
 

Todd though? I don’t think he’d even question it if it meant he wins. 

He does not want to win. He is looking for a loophole. You cannot risk that Dalinar will fall into his own sword.

[trav]

draw or

match carrying on for all eternity

Edited November 27, 2020 by trav

[Samasaur]

For what it's worth, I don't believe that the contract includes the clause protecting Wit. Odium trashed the contract that Dalinar came with, and they came up with one from scratch — I don't think the Wit clause carried over.

I think Wit was physically protected in the epilogue due to preexisting agreements, and that if the clause had been included in the contract, Taravangian-Odium (I liked Vargodium, which I saw somewhere) wouldn't have been able to tamper with Wit's memories (although he might still have been able to read them).

[Raven Wilder]

Here's a thought:

Rayse is the one who made the contract with Dalinar, but Taravangian is still bound by it. This indicates that the contract is binding on the Shard Odium, not on Odium's Vessel. So if Dalinar defeats Odium's champion, all Taravangian has to do to get out of the contract is to stop being Odium.

Brandon has said the reason Odium Splinters other Shards rather than taking their power for himself is because Rayse felt Odium's Intent suited him well, and didn't want the Intents of a bunch of other Shards mucking up his personality. But Taravangian isn't Rayse; he's willing to be self-effacing and self-sacrificing in ways that the prideful Rayse never could be. So if being Odium gets in the way of Taravangian's larger goals, he might decide to sacrifice or compromise his Shard, something Wit would never expect out of Rayse, and so was unconcerned about so long as he believed Rayse was still Odium.

There's a few ways that could be done. One would be to set up a situation where he drops the Odium Shard completely, but is then able to pick up a different Shard that doesn't have so many restrictions (it seems doubtful he could get Cultivation to be Odium's champion, but if he did, and Dalinar somehow defied the odds and killed her, that'd leave the Cultivation Shard up for grabs). Another possibility would be to split Odium into two distinct Shards, sort of the reverse of what Sazed did with Ruin and Preservation; assuming the new Shards are treated as separate entities from Odium, they might not be bound by his promises. A third possibility: Honor is dead, but his power is still around; if Odium had a way to add Honor's remains to himself, he'd become a new Shard, a fusion of Honor and Odium, and it's debatable whether an oath made by Odium alone would still be binding on this new entity.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Raven Wilder

[vhaloth]

Quote

all Taravangian has to do to get out of the contract is to stop being Odium.

Is this even possible?
 

[+Aletus he/him]

Quote

This will protect me from Odium’s direct attacks for the life of the contract. He will have to abide by those terms, as they are part of the promise Rayse made by taking up the Shard of Odium. To fail that promise would give others an opening against him, and said failures have killed gods before. Odium knows it. So do this, and I can help you openly. As myself.”

Rayse made the mentioned promise. Mr. T did not. 

[Craghack]

On 22/11/2020 at 0:27 AM, Oltux72 said:

Like killing your opponent with a suicide attack. You are both dead. The duell is over. But there is no winner.

Is it possible that we will see the first use of Cosmere-style WMDs?

One of Hoid’s comments implies that he expects these to be developed in the future:

Quote

What happens when a single individual can kill tens of thousands in moments—assuming the enemy will kindly bunch up in a neat little pike block. Things will change rapidly when such powers become common.”

“They’re hardly common.”

“I didn’t say they were,” he said. “Yet.”

And we already have a possible mechanism given the explosive nature of interactions between voidlight and anti-voidlight.

If Odium’s champion could trigger an explosion that kills both combatants and damages Urithuru that would probably work in his given the speculation in this thread.

 

But it does seem very, very unlikely that a workable weapon could be developed within ten days. Especially as, although the explosions in ROW were impressive, they weren’t exactly WMD level.

Still, I wouldn’t be that surprised if Sanderson took us somewhere along those lines.

 

 

[Raven Wilder]

19 hours ago, vhaloth said:

Is this even possible?
 

I believe there's Word of Brandon that a Vessel can voluntarily abandon their Shard.

[Experience he/him]

I'm not sure if anyone has said this yet, but my guess is that Dalinar could become Odiums champion, then purposely lose. That way he protects the people, but becomes a fused for Odium and the bigger Cosmere battle.

[zxlime]

I get the feeling its more simple than this;

Quote

“You’ve told me he would destroy you if he found you.”

“We’ll add a line to the contract,” Wit said, “naming me as a contractual liaison for Honor—whom Dalinar represents. This will protect me from Odium’s direct attacks for the life of the contract. He will have to abide by those terms, as they are part of the promise Rayse made by taking up the Shard of Odium. To fail that promise would give others an opening against him, and said failures have killed gods before. Odium knows it. So do this, and I can help you openly. As myself.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

I believe some ancient shenenigans that occured before the shattering of Adonalsium (or during the shattering) laid the ground for some of the laws governing the interractions between Hoid and the Vessels. If that's the case, then there is ground for many loopholes we wouldn't even know about. To me that words with Wit's "UNLESS" epiphany, as his thought process goes there right after he feels Rayse is not acting as...well, Rayse.

So yeah, maybe there are some pre-existing deals between Hoid and the Vessel Rayse that are different then those involving Hoid and the Shard Odium, and that the former falling through influences the latter.

[Hoids Imaginary Friend]

What if the loophole is to destroy the planet Roshar and book 5 ends with a mass exodus and a scene eerily similar to Dalina's vision at the end of book 1?

No planet, no place to be bound..?

!~ HIF ~!

[Use the Falchion]

On 11/19/2020 at 10:17 AM, Jaconis said:

Gav has been my thought as well. The question of his “willingness”....it’s very hard to know. I think it would require Intent, which a child is absolutely capable of possessing. Whether this should be allowed is absolutely debatable, but from a technical and cosmere-magical perspective, I think it’s possible. Shallan was able to make oaths/truths at an age not much older than Gav for her first bond after all.

This also brings us to the “draw” scenario in my opinion. Dalinar won’t kill Gav, Gav can’t kill Dalinar. 

The bigger issue I have with this option is would Gav actually be willing? It depends on how much he knows. If he knew he had to fight Dalinar, then I think absolutely would not be willing. How much could he be tricked to join the enemy of the only people than the largest role models he has had lately. 

In contradiction to that, this is almost the quintessential dilemma of Dalinar and T’s philosophical differences - what cost is worth paying to help the many? This makes it feel poetic and foreshadowed. Although, it wouldn’t have to be Gav or a child, just someone innocent to meet this criteria. 

I was originally on the "Shallan's Baby or Oroden potentially" track, but I think I'm switching to Gavinor. 

Gavinor is old enough to willingly agree to stuff, and I could easily see him being tempted into being Odium's Champion if Odium promises to let the kid kill Moash and says the child won't have to fight anyone (since Dalinar and crew won't kill a child, so they'd have to forfeit, meaning that Odium was technically right). Sacrifice a powerful piece to win the war and all that jazz. 

However, what if Dalinar gives up his bond and powers? Is he still a representative of Honor if he doesn't hold the powers or ability? 

Edited December 3, 2020 by Use the Falchion

[Seloun]

I think the primary discriminator is that it has to be something Taravangian saw that Rayse did not.

There are a lot of possible ways to game the contest (example: pick Moash as the champion, have Gavinor attack him, violating the 'otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces' clause). But the implication is that Taravangian saw a loophole that Rayse didn't see. Since they have access to the same powers, essentially, I think it has to be something that Rayse would not have considered as being viable, but Taravangian is willing to entertain.

Given that constraint, I think the most likely answer is something that risks Taravangian personally. We know from several passages that Rayse is not willing to risk himself - he is willing to wait for a sure thing rather than take a risk. Taravangian on the other hand is all about risking himself to achieve his goals.

We know that Odium can break his word. It just puts him in a vulnerable state, which is why Rayse never would have done it. But if the Vessel is willing to take such a risk, it's something Odium could do. I think this is the big assumption that everyone is making - that Odium cannot break his word, rather than he is not willing to break his word.

[danex he/him]

1 hour ago, Seloun said:

But the implication is that Taravangian saw a loophole that Rayse didn't see. Since they have access to the same powers, essentially, I think it has to be something that Rayse would not have considered as being viable, but Taravangian is willing to entertain.

I agree with this, and I think another possibility is that Taravangian just knows something that Rayse didn’t. Odium isn’t omniscient or omnipresent. Rayse was just a man, a very very powerful man, but still a man. Taravangian spent a lot of time with Dalinar, he could know something about him that Rayse didn’t.