Why Radiants are incredibly overpowered, and Mistborn aren't.

[Hoidolasium he/him]

56 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Same way Vin did they are among the best warriors n the Order.

And Truthwatchers might be able to access fortune without Sja-anat

They are among the best orders, but Vin was familiar with the way Atium worked and was extremely lucky, while this assumes no preparation. If Truthwatchers can access Futuresight without becoming incapacitated (like Renarin does), then yes, they could in theory counter Atium. You have to remember: Atium is the only perfect form of Futuresight we know of, it's probably the most powerful single form of magic we've seen so far (besides Shardic influence). 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Radiant heals and puts plate on, back t square one

Radiant healing is to c-gold as Wolverine is to Deadpool: if they get a few seconds, they can heal up, but they're not functionally immortal or anything.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

• Will not happen
• Agree

1. Mistborn are very accurate, it's not entirely out of the picture.

2. If the Mistborn has a solid anchor and a lot of pewter and steel, they could do a significant amount of damage in one hit. If it does go "dink", retreat/Shardblade are likely.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Mitborn would only be able to do like maybe 5 shots like that and then be out of steel, a Radiant could last that long and still function, and there isn't a single order(with the possible exception of Truthwatchers) that you could reliably hit every time. and we don't even know if Live plate needs stormlight

Radiants use up their resources faster than Mistborn, even having used up their resources like that, they are likely to be able to get away. Are you saying Live Plate is completely indestructible or unable to heal? Those are the two options if it doesn't need light, both of which seem unlikely.

 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Bows, grab the coin, don't inhale all your spheres at once, lots of ways around this

The best way around would just be to chase them, Radiants with Gravitation have much better vertical mobility than the more maneuverable Mistborn. We don't know how practical Shardbows were, the Mistborn could just choose another anchor, and you still have to inhale all your spheres eventually.

 

1 hour ago, Enter a username said:

Battle four: Radiant does an ambush. Result: Shardblade!

Enhanced senses and reflexes make it hard to sneak up, but yeah, if a Radiant gets a guaranteed hit, they automatically win

[Dunkum he/him]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Mitborn would only be able to do like maybe 5 shots like that and then be out of steel, a Radiant could last that long and still function, and there isn't a single order(with the possible exception of Truthwatchers) that you could reliably hit every time. and we don't even know if Live plate needs stormlight

not to mention that it would need to be a supremely well aimed coin to kill before stormlight healing adresses the problem.

[Frustration he/him]

33 minutes ago, Hoidolasium said:

They are among the best orders, but Vin was familiar with the way Atium worked and was extremely lucky, while this assumes no preparation. If Truthwatchers can access Futuresight without becoming incapacitated (like Renarin does), then yes, they could in theory counter Atium. You have to remember: Atium is the only perfect form of Futuresight we know of, it's probably the most powerful single form of magic we've seen so far (besides Shardic influence). 

Atium is not infallible, and besides worriers as good as Kaladin, Szeth and Dalinar would pull that of easily.

34 minutes ago, Hoidolasium said:

Radiant healing is to c-gold as Wolverine is to Deadpool: if they get a few seconds, they can heal up, but they're not functionally immortal or anything.

Coins are not insta-kills. 

35 minutes ago, Hoidolasium said:

1. Mistborn are very accurate, it's not entirely out of the picture.

Yes get a coin through something barely wider than it is, form a distance. I'm not seeing it.

37 minutes ago, Hoidolasium said:

2. If the Mistborn has a solid anchor and a lot of pewter and steel, they could do a significant amount of damage in one hit. If it does go "dink", retreat/Shardblade are likely.

And?

37 minutes ago, Hoidolasium said:

Radiants use up their resources faster than Mistborn, even having used up their resources like that, they are likely to be able to get away. Are you saying Live Plate is completely indestructible or unable to heal? Those are the two options if it doesn't need light, both of which seem unlikely.

I meant to use I don't think that live plate will lock up when drained of Stormlight.

38 minutes ago, Hoidolasium said:

The best way around would just be to chase them, Radiants with Gravitation have much better vertical mobility than the more maneuverable Mistborn. We don't know how practical Shardbows were, the Mistborn could just choose another anchor, and you still have to inhale all your spheres eventually.

Effect enough to be used, and no not really you can just sit there without holding Stormlight.

[Use the Falchion]

Maybe we're thinking about this all wrong. If we're considering a Radiant with full blade and plate to be the pinnacle of non-Ascended Rosharan magic, why aren't we doing the same for Scadrial? A Mistborn isn't the top tier of power on Scadrial - a Fullborn is. And I'd probably pick a Fullborn ala TLR or (Bands of Mourning Spoilers)

Spoiler

anyone with the Bands of Mourning and the will to use it

over a Radiant pretty much any day. 

To me should be Misting vs Shardblade/Shardplate wearer, Mistborn vs Tier 3 or so Radiant (or one who has both blade and plate, but isn't a Radiant) at most, and then Fullborn vs a 5 Oath Radiant. 

Also, for the point of Jasnah and Soulcasting; was she far away when she Soulcast the killers in the alley in tWoK? I don't remember. I remember her Soulcasting from a distant in the climax of OB, but one has to admit those circumstances were very unique. It'd be like claiming Vin should be able to do what she did when she

Spoiler

drew upon the mists

all of the time.

But that's just me. I don't really want to be dragged into this. 

 

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

9 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

Also, for the point of Jasnah and Soulcasting; was she far away when she Soulcast the killers in the alley in tWoK? I don't remember. I remember her Soulcasting from a distant in the climax of OB, but one has to admit those circumstances were very unique.

 

Yep. Shallan even remarks how Soulcaster fabrials aren't supposed to allow ranged Soulcasting.

[Use the Falchion]

Just now, Halyo_Alex said:

Yep. Shallan even remarks how Soulcaster fabrials aren't supposed to allow ranged Soulcasting.

Sweet! Thanks for the fact check!

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

To be fair,  a Fullborn beats any non-Shard in the Cosmere that isn't Elantrian and in the center of his or her power. A Fullborn with Atium beats everything barring Shards, full stop. Compounding makes them beyond ridiculous,  to the point where we must ask how big an army would you need to take one out.

[Dunkum he/him]

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

To be fair,  a Fullborn beats any non-Shard in the Cosmere that isn't Elantrian and in the center of his or her power. A Fullborn with Atium beats everything barring Shards, full stop. Compounding makes them beyond ridiculous,  to the point where we must ask how big an army would you need to take one out.

even without Atium, i'd bet on the fullborn over an Elantrian in Elantris, unless they were specifically prepared

[StanLemon]

@Frustration you are overestimating Radiants quite a lot. Even Kaladin, Dalinar, and Szeth would be hard pressed doing Vin's trick and Atium would not be able to just be "figured out." From the Radiant's perspective, it would simply look like the Mistborn is really really skilled in combat.

As for a Fullborn, the issue with comparing them to anything is that they are two full magic systems that have a lot of synergy. The closes comparison that could be made on Roshar is if their was a Radiant with all 10 Surges. Even then, a Fullborn if fighting seriously could wipe out anything nigh instantaneously.

[Frustration he/him]

10 hours ago, StanLemon said:

@Frustration you are overestimating Radiants quite a lot. Even Kaladin, Dalinar, and Szeth would be hard pressed doing Vin's trick and Atium would not be able to just be "figured out." From the Radiant's perspective, it would simply look like the Mistborn is really really skilled in combat.

So we have two dudes that single handedly have killed armies, one of which has killed multiple shardbearers at once, and the guy that beat him, and your saying that they can't change what they're going to do in a fraction of a second?

@Use the Falchion I'm specifically doing users of One magic system, Fullborn have two and so don't count. Also in WoK Jashna does soulcast at a distance.

[Gisaku75]

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

So we have two dudes that single handedly have killed armies, one of which has killed multiple shardbearers at once, and the guy that beat him, and your saying that they can't change what they're going to do in a fraction of a second?

@Use the Falchion I'm specifically doing users of One magic system, Fullborn have two and so don't count. Also in WoK Jashna does soulcast at a distance.

Vin has done similar things with less training, and has both practical and theoretical knowledge of atium. How would your heroes acquire this information? Without them it is impossible that they can do what Vin did before taking a dagger in the eye.

[Dunkum he/him]

7 minutes ago, Gisaku75 said:

Vin has done similar things with less training, and has both practical and theoretical knowledge of atium. How would your heroes acquire this information? Without them it is impossible that they can do what Vin did before taking a dagger in the eye.

I'll second this: Vin was only able to beat Zane because she knew exactly how Atium worked, and specifically put herself into a frame of mind to react to Zane's reaction to her.  If anything a shardbearer would probably have a worse reaction than average - they are so used to being able to shrug off anyhting short of a shardblade that they would never have a reason to expect someone to be able to hit them with that kind of accuracy.  Heck, theres a good argumant to be made that Kaladin only managed it because he was already in the process of Bonding Syl.  I'd bet on someone in plate almost completely ignoring arrows and daggers and coins, which would be to their detriment in the Atium case where the mistborn would know in advance exactly where to aim to get a kill shot.

[Enter a username he/him]

19 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Maybe we're thinking about this all wrong. If we're considering a Radiant with full blade and plate to be the pinnacle of non-Ascended Rosharan magic, why aren't we doing the same for Scadrial? A Mistborn isn't the top tier of power on Scadrial - a Fullborn is. And I'd probably pick a Fullborn ala TLR

The thing about fullborn is that they'd probably be able to compound nicrosil beforehand to the point where burning pewter has the same effect as Miles's gold compounding. Also, compounding steel would make them even more invincible than Atium would.

[StanLemon]

2 hours ago, Enter a username said:

The thing about fullborn is that they'd probably be able to compound nicrosil beforehand to the point where burning pewter has the same effect as Miles's gold compounding. Also, compounding steel would make them even more invincible than Atium would.

Thing is, we still have too much we don't know about Nicrosil. But yeah, compounding speed, strength, and health would let them completely overwhelm a Radiant even if they had Plate

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

6 hours ago, Dunkum said:

I'll second this: Vin was only able to beat Zane because she knew exactly how Atium worked, and specifically put herself into a frame of mind to react to Zane's reaction to her.  If anything a shardbearer would probably have a worse reaction than average - they are so used to being able to shrug off anyhting short of a shardblade that they would never have a reason to expect someone to be able to hit them with that kind of accuracy.  Heck, theres a good argumant to be made that Kaladin only managed it because he was already in the process of Bonding Syl.  I'd bet on someone in plate almost completely ignoring arrows and daggers and coins, which would be to their detriment in the Atium case where the mistborn would know in advance exactly where to aim to get a kill shot.

Here's the thing.  First, there is no way a Radiant in armor is going to neglect protecting their most glaring vulnerability when faced with any enemy, much less such an obviously supernatural one, at least not by accident.  Second,  a Radiant in armor holding Stormlight isn't automatically dead with that knife thrust. Were I Radiant,  I might even take that hit just to lure my opponent into Shardblade range. Third, how much do these opponents know about each other beforehand?  If they are aware of each other's powers they'll fight differently than if they fight blind. I say that to say that in terms of surprises the Mistborn has much more to worry about than any Radiant if they're going in ignorant. But if they know each other's abilities whose to say that Atium Shadow would even show a victory condition? You might just get that perfect shot as a Mistborn but not from distance.  You have to get into Shardblade range to do anything like real damage to an armored opponent. 

[Dunkum he/him]

38 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Here's the thing.  First, there is no way a Radiant in armor is going to neglect protecting their most glaring vulnerability when faced with any enemy, much less such an obviously supernatural one, at least not by accident.  Second,  a Radiant in armor holding Stormlight isn't automatically dead with that knife thrust. Were I Radiant,  I might even take that hit just to lure my opponent into Shardblade range. Third, how much do these opponents know about each other beforehand?  If they are aware of each other's powers they'll fight differently than if they fight blind. I say that to say that in terms of surprises the Mistborn has much more to worry about than any Radiant if they're going in ignorant. But if they know each other's abilities whose to say that Atium Shadow would even show a victory condition? You might just get that perfect shot as a Mistborn but not from distance.  You have to get into Shardblade range to do anything like real damage to an armored opponent. 

sure, and the only way I see a mistborn having a chance is with Atium.  the rest of their metals simply arent strong enough to overcome the combination of plate, blade, and stormlight healing.  Any 1 of those they might be able to manage, but against all 3, they don't have much they can do.  to your points: yes, a radiant would protect their eyeslit, but there is only so much you can do there - try too hard and you blind yourself and can't attack.  at some point it will have to be open.  to the second point, a radiant holding stormlight isn't automatically dead to most things, but a head shot would most likely do it, and we are talking about a shot straight to the eyes and into the skull.  that's going to be a kill shot in almost every case - unless they are actively dumping stormlight into healing themselves in preparation, and even then it might be disruptive enough and/or difficult enough to heal that they'd die.  basically, intent matters a lot in the cosmere, and its hard to have intent with a scrambled brain.  to the third - it is true that the possibility exists that even with Atium there is simply no win condition.  if they had enough atium, i imagine one would eventually show itself, but that stuff burns fast, so it is possible that there is simply never an opportunity to attack before it runs out, but I think in most cases there will be something, and atium enhances the mind to better take advantage of the information it provides - I don't doubt that if a mistborn burning atium sees an opening that they could take it and hit.  remember we are talking a skilled mistborn - if our radiant has full plate and blade, then our mistborn has to be similarly skilled with their powers, and that is going to include aiming shot coins - again with the advantage of atium telling them precisely where and when it needs to go.

[Frustration he/him]

Anothing thing against Atium is that Radiants could fight and win quite reliably against foresight during the desolations, Nightform and other such things.

[StanLemon]

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Were I Radiant,  I might even take that hit just to lure my opponent into Shardblade range. 

I have already said AND given an example of how a strike to the head is debilitating to Radiants. A Radiant would NOT be able to keep fighting effectively with a knife to the eye

[StanLemon]

WoB has already said that Atium gives an advantage to the Mistborn 

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

11 hours ago, StanLemon said:

I have already said AND given an example of how a strike to the head is debilitating to Radiants. A Radiant would NOT be able to keep fighting effectively with a knife to the eye

Debilitating, yes. Instant? For someone full of Stormlight? Not so much. A coin to the eyeslit has a super low probability of connecting.  The Mistborn has a much better chance with the dagger.  But the dagger puts one in range of that stupidity long Shardblade.  The Mistborn must therefore deliver their knife blow and move out of range before said Shardblade delivers a strike or a flailing limb connects. 

This is the scenario I'm thinking of. The fight has been going on for awhile with the Mistborn playing keep away and the Radiant burning though Stormlight in pursuit.  The Mistborn taps Atium to move in close and attempt the stab. He gets in close and manages to stick the knife in, but the Radiant is sweeping that huge blade around.  Is the Mistborn fast enough to dodge the blow? He has nothing that can block it so he must dodge.

At this point there are a few things that could happen.  One, the Radiant misses completely, in which case all is good.  Even if the Radiant isn't dead they'll use up a great amount of Stormlight in healing a normally fatal wound. They'd still have their blade but their plate must be dismissed, opening up all sorts of potential weak points. Two, the Radiant misses with the blade strike but hits with an arm or leg. The Mistborn may or may not be able to follow up on their successful attack then. Even a glancing hit with Plate is strong enough to break bones. And while Pewter may allow them to keep going it's going to be hard to attack if the Mistborn took a hit that broke an arm or a couple ribs. Three,  the Radiant manages to hit with that Shardblade which becomes disastrous to the Mistborn wherever they're hit. At best the thing kills a limb.  Worse case, a spine or headshot and instant death.  Meanwhile the Radiant has time and no pressure to pull out the dagger and heal the damage. 

All 3 scenarios assume that Atium shows a path to victory anyway.  The problem is,  one point of vulnerability limits attack avenues.  The Radiant only has one point to defend, the Mistborn only has one place they can succeed.  The Mistborn by contrast must defend their entire body and isn't necessarily safe distance wise depending on which order of Radiant he's fighting.  If the guy gets hit with anything it could be fatal,  whether punch or blade or surge. Thugs can only take so much damage. As someone on here succinctly put it, a Mistborn is a glass cannon.  A Radiant is a mobile battle tank.

[Dunkum he/him]

6 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Is the Mistborn fast enough to dodge the blow? He has nothing that can block it so he must dodge.

they're burnign atium, so yes.  that's like the primary benefit of atium.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

Just now, Dunkum said:

they're burnign atium, so yes.  that's like the primary benefit of atium.

Hard to dodge when there's only one place to attack. Atium ain't gonna show a winning path unless the Radiant has no Stormlight. 

[Dunkum he/him]

4 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Hard to dodge when there's only one place to attack. Atium ain't gonna show a winning path unless the Radiant has no Stormlight. 

even if they have to get up close, they will know in advance where the weapon and armor are going.  and with pewter and steel increasing speed and maneuverability should be able to dodge.  it doesnt matter how strong and fast the opponent is if you know where their attack is going to go in advance (up to a point anyway - the faster the opponent, the more likely they will be able to react, but radiants aren't at that level).  until the atium runs out a radiant will have a ton of trouble hitting a mistborn.  A good tactitcian migth be able to maneuver them into a scenario where they can't dodge - it is theoretically possible; and it is also possible that the radiant can figth defensively enough to avoid giving the mistborn a chance to hit.  those scenarios can both happen.  but i'd say that while they have atium, a mistborn has upwards of 90% chance of surviving (varying a little bit depending on the order they are fighting) and probably a 70% chance of being able to deliver a killing blow, varying a little based on order, but more based on how the opponent fights.  that latter drops to near 0 without atium, and survivabilty depends on their willingness to just run away, which is the only way they are surviving long term without atium.

[StanLemon]

12 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Hard to dodge when there's only one place to attack. Atium ain't gonna show a winning path unless the Radiant has no Stormlight. 

If the Mistborn is close enough to strike withe the dagger then the are already too close to the Radiant to simply strike them with the Blade. In sword form the Blade is to actually strike them and even if they shift it to a small Blade like a knife the Mistborn will have done the damage and be able to Push themselves out of the way.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

19 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

If the Mistborn is close enough to strike withe the dagger then the are already too close to the Radiant to simply strike them with the Blade. In sword form the Blade is to actually strike them and even if they cas6shift it to a small Blade like a knife the Mistborn will have done the damage and be able to Push themselves out of the way.

Even a glancing blow with Plate can break bones.  But anyway,  Atium is a huge advantage to the Mistborn,  it's just not an instant win against a Stormlight user, especially one with Plate. Even the best case scenario won't kill the Radiant outright, more work would have to be done. And Atium runs out fast. It's going to be quite difficult to hit that kill shot even once.  If you have to make that perfect, one-in-a-million strike multiple times your probability of success is greatly reduced. We're probably talking Vin vs. maybe Shallan as 5 Oath Radiant  as far as combat effective level for that Mistborn to consistently beat the Radiant.  But truth is, most Mistborn are going to be at something like Shan Elarial's level of competency and someone like her is not beating the worst Radiant out there.