The Diagram was never suposed to work

[DiePie]

So, the diagram is a work of beauty, it's so complicated that it took a literal god to understand most of it, and what little was understood by Taravangrian and The Diagram (the organization) was basically prophetic. However, there has always been a flaw to me, when Taravangrian meets with Odium, Odium has a copy... How surprising considering The Diagram (the organization) was made of thousands of members, and quite a few that had access to the Diagram in its entirety. So it seems weird to me that Taravangrian (on the day that he was intelligent enough to impress a god), wouldn't have figured out that Odium would eventual find himself a copy... Or perhaps he did.

I'm proposing that Taravangrian created the diagram not to succeed in saving humanity, but to set up the world for the Diagram 2.0. When Taravangrian created the Diagram, he did so vouching on the Idea that he will be granted a similar intelligence later. He used the Diagram to create a world perfect for his second faze to begin, everything from the predictions that were wrong to Odium figuring out his plan were all part of the plan from the start, however he could not write all this down, since then Odium would know. 

Another note: Taravangrian's deal with Odium seems stupid, first of all, Odium seems to have no reason to exterminate the humans, just the spren (the remaining remnants of honor), and second is that Odium would easily see through that plan, he makes it seem obvious, and he probably would have seen what Taravangrian was doing even if he didn't have a copy of The Diagram himself.

TLDR: The Diagram was a farce set up by Taravangrian to properly prepare the world for his real plan to save humanity

[ftl]

I agree that the purpose of the Diagram was to manipulate everyone, including less-smart Taravangrian. To what end? Unclear.

I personally don't think he was banking on a second super-smart day, though.

[RShara she/her]

I prefer the T is a Plant theory!

[DiePie]

6 hours ago, ftl said:

I personally don't think he was banking on a second super-smart day, though.

Yeah I thought that was more of a stretch

[TrдVψLшR 0115 he/him]

@RShara T is a plant?

[Quantus he/him]

27 minutes ago, TrдVψLшR 0115 said:

@RShara T is a plant?

A popular theory (that is pretty close to the OP's actually) is that it's all a farce/scheme by Cultivation.  

Im curious how much impact Renarin will have, and/or how much she could have predicted regarding him, since apparently Odium cant predict his moves anymore (a nice analog to Atium combat).

 

EDIT:  @RShara a "plant"...I see what you did there :-P 

Edited March 17, 2020 by Quantus

[king of nowhere]

yes, you are not the only one to have similar ideas

there's always another secret

[Daughter of Tanavast she/her]

If the Diagram was never supposed to work, do you think that Taravangian's advisers (like Adrotagia) knew? Or was it all kept a secret by the king (or Cultivation)? I think this theory is really interesting... although I do think that it would be hard for Taravangian to keep this a secret or keep plotting on his less smart days, which seem to be increasing according to OB.

[Gilphon]

I'm totally on board with the idea that Taravangian is Cultivation's unwitting agent, but that doesn't tell us what the real intention behind the diagram is. In the short term I think its instructions are the most obvious way that Cultivation is influencing events, but the overarching goal...

Yeah, I'm board with the idea that the whole 'Taravangian conquers the entire world and that forces Odium to spare humanity' plan is a feint. I feel like the opinion of both Cultivation and Super-T would be that it would be nice if that plan worked, and that Odium should be lead to believe that was the real plan, but they shouldn't rely on things working out that well. 

I don't think think they're relying on a Diagram 2.0 happening, though. More likely there are just contingencies and things that don't mean what they appear to mean built into the first Diagram. 

[agrabes]

12 hours ago, DiePie said:

So, the diagram is a work of beauty, it's so complicated that it took a literal god to understand most of it, and what little was understood by Taravangrian and The Diagram (the organization) was basically prophetic. However, there has always been a flaw to me, when Taravangrian meets with Odium, Odium has a copy... How surprising considering The Diagram (the organization) was made of thousands of members, and quite a few that had access to the Diagram in its entirety. So it seems weird to me that Taravangrian (on the day that he was intelligent enough to impress a god), wouldn't have figured out that Odium would eventual find himself a copy... Or perhaps he did.

I'm proposing that Taravangrian created the diagram not to succeed in saving humanity, but to set up the world for the Diagram 2.0. When Taravangrian created the Diagram, he did so vouching on the Idea that he will be granted a similar intelligence later. He used the Diagram to create a world perfect for his second faze to begin, everything from the predictions that were wrong to Odium figuring out his plan were all part of the plan from the start, however he could not write all this down, since then Odium would know. 

Another note: Taravangrian's deal with Odium seems stupid, first of all, Odium seems to have no reason to exterminate the humans, just the spren (the remaining remnants of honor), and second is that Odium would easily see through that plan, he makes it seem obvious, and he probably would have seen what Taravangrian was doing even if he didn't have a copy of The Diagram himself.

TLDR: The Diagram was a farce set up by Taravangrian to properly prepare the world for his real plan to save humanity

If that's the case though - Odium being able to see through everything in Diagram 1.0 - why would he not be able to see through Diagram 2.0?  Then does he need Diagram 3.0 and so on?  If Odium can uncover one secret plan, then unless you can invent a new way of hiding the plans he can uncover them all.  Especially after he's discovered the first one and knows that you are up to something.  He's going to keep a closer eye on you going forward.

It seems the Diagram had plans for the contingency that it was discovered early by Odium.  So, I think it is more that the Diagram had considered many possible outcomes and that in his lesser states Taravangian would only be able to understand those branching paths when they happen.  The Diagram also planned out what should be done if Odium discovers the plan.  

[DiePie]

1 minute ago, agrabes said:

If that's the case though - Odium being able to see through everything in Diagram 1.0 - why would he not be able to see through Diagram 2.0?  Then does he need Diagram 3.0 and so on?  If Odium can uncover one secret plan, then unless you can invent a new way of hiding the plans he can uncover them all.  Especially after he's discovered the first one and knows that you are up to something.  He's going to keep a closer eye on you going forward.

It seems the Diagram had plans for the contingency that it was discovered early by Odium.  So, I think it is more that the Diagram had considered many possible outcomes and that in his lesser states Taravangian would only be able to understand those branching paths when they happen.  The Diagram also planned out what should be done if Odium discovers the plan. 

My idea was that the Diagram 2.0 would come and the Diagram (the organization) would quickly change plans and begin something that Odium wouldn't expect, and it would be executed before Odium would be made aware, Odium only knew about the Diagram's (the organization) plans was because he was able to secure a copy, which in and of itself most likely took time, the Diagram (the organization) had been operating for years before the events of SA, and Odium only confronts Taravangrian in the end of Oathbringer, revealing that he probably didn't know about the deal (the one where Taravangrian would become king of the world to trick Odium) until then, and thus had only just secured the Diagram. 

What I'm trying to say is that this all hinges on a quick change in the Diagram's (the organization) actions throughout Roshar to tip the tide of the war before Odium knew what was happening, or before he could react accordingly.

Also, quick note: if the Diagram lists a possible contingency for if Odium discovers it, then won't Odium know the contingency? If Odium discovers the Diagram then anything it contains is compromised and thus can be countered by Odium.

[teknopathetic he/him]

25 minutes ago, agrabes said:

If that's the case though - Odium being able to see through everything in Diagram 1.0 - why would he not be able to see through Diagram 2.0?  Then does he need Diagram 3.0 and so on?  If Odium can uncover one secret plan, then unless you can invent a new way of hiding the plans he can uncover them all.  Especially after he's discovered the first one and knows that you are up to something.  He's going to keep a closer eye on you going forward.

 

Two things:

1. The diagram was not constructed using fortune, so Mr T's knowledge comes from a different source than Odium. This is why Mr T can see some things that Odium cant. 

2. The diagram was hides Renarin from Odium, so Odium does not have as much information as Odium thinks. This is why there can be a diagram 2.0 as it uses a method of prediction Odium doesn't seem to be as good at. 

 

I highly doubt that genius Mt T would in any way take the emotional route and plan to save only his family from Odium. Instead, Genius Mr T would likely use his weaker emotional side to trick Odium into something or into exposing himself. The most obvious plan is that Genius Mr T is trying to maneuver Renarin into a position to do something major. The other more common idea is that Khaladin's mother might have been from Karbrandth and Khaladin will be granted the protection Odium promised (leading to some kind of disaster for Odium) 

 

Edited March 17, 2020 by teknopathetic

[Frustration he/him]

I had a similar theory, it's somewhere on the second or third page by now about the threads of Cultivations plan in that meeting. Something is going on there.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

Although I subscribe to the T is a Plant theory, there may be some merit to the OP's theory as well.  I do know that Taravanginan desperately wants another shot at God level intelligence; he's been worried about how often the Diagram has been off since he took his shots at Dalinar and the Radiants and wants another day to course correct.

Maybe the theories aren't mutually exclusive.  The Diagram was eerily accurate before,  an almost 100% success rate, sometimes inaccurate in small detail but capturing the essence of the commands. That is, until King T decided to take shots at Dalinar.  It isn't so much that the Diagram failed, it's that it failed in such a way as to further their cause and by extension the cause of humanity. But for both of these theories to be true then sometime in the future Cultivation will have to believe that it's in her best interest to send him another vision of Godhood. Preferably close enough to the endgame for T to change course. Then again, considering his goals up to this point that Godhood day is going to have to explicitly tell him that humans can actually win.

[agrabes]

21 hours ago, DiePie said:

My idea was that the Diagram 2.0 would come and the Diagram (the organization) would quickly change plans and begin something that Odium wouldn't expect, and it would be executed before Odium would be made aware, Odium only knew about the Diagram's (the organization) plans was because he was able to secure a copy, which in and of itself most likely took time, the Diagram (the organization) had been operating for years before the events of SA, and Odium only confronts Taravangrian in the end of Oathbringer, revealing that he probably didn't know about the deal (the one where Taravangrian would become king of the world to trick Odium) until then, and thus had only just secured the Diagram. 

What I'm trying to say is that this all hinges on a quick change in the Diagram's (the organization) actions throughout Roshar to tip the tide of the war before Odium knew what was happening, or before he could react accordingly.

Also, quick note: if the Diagram lists a possible contingency for if Odium discovers it, then won't Odium know the contingency? If Odium discovers the Diagram then anything it contains is compromised and thus can be countered by Odium.

I do think that's true - the original Diagram was tough for him to crack and/or get a hold of.  And it seems that Odium didn't necessarily find it himself, he was told about it.  But, once he did know about it he was able to extrapolate on it instantaneously and learn everything about it better than anyone in the Diagram organization did.  The only exception is things related to Renarin.  I was just rereading the scene with Odium and Taravangian. It seems like Odium's powers of future sight are kind of a "deterministic" type of future sight.  He has the ability to figure out the future by calculating cause and effect, he doesn't just automatically know all the future.  That's what hid a lot of the aspects of the Diagram from Odium.  Now that Odium's seen it and examined the future related to it, it seems like it would be really tough to do anything that Odium wouldn't already know about unless it's tied to Renarin which seems to be a blind spot for him.

You're probably right that they can't have a plan for how to trick Odium after he knows about the Diagram.  It seems like their strategy was to get things prepared and in place for the day they finally met with Odium.  They even said they reached out to him intentionally.  So, yeah I think I was wrong about the contingency plan thing.

21 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Two things:

1. The diagram was not constructed using fortune, so Mr T's knowledge comes from a different source than Odium. This is why Mr T can see some things that Odium cant. 

2. The diagram was hides Renarin from Odium, so Odium does not have as much information as Odium thinks. This is why there can be a diagram 2.0 as it uses a method of prediction Odium doesn't seem to be as good at. 

 

I highly doubt that genius Mt T would in any way take the emotional route and plan to save only his family from Odium. Instead, Genius Mr T would likely use his weaker emotional side to trick Odium into something or into exposing himself. The most obvious plan is that Genius Mr T is trying to maneuver Renarin into a position to do something major. The other more common idea is that Khaladin's mother might have been from Karbrandth and Khaladin will be granted the protection Odium promised (leading to some kind of disaster for Odium) 

 

I don't know that Mr. T can see things Odium can't, exactly or that the reason for this is that it's not "Fortune."  I think the opposite is true - Odium can see exponentially more than Taravangian.  But, for some reason specifically Renarin is hidden from Odium somehow.  My personal guess on that is that the reason is something unique to the relationship between Odium and Renarin/Glys, not something to do with fundamental powers of the Cosmere.  Something like because Glys is partially of Odium, Odium can't foresee Glys/Renarin's actions because they are his own actions in some sense and it creates a paradox or something like that.  The reason I say that is because if it is something more fundamental like "Renarin is immune to all types of future sight! (considering that the Diagram isn't really future sight, it's hyper-intelligent predictions of the future)" that seems overpowered and kind of lame to me.  Not that it couldn't happen, just that I would prefer it doesn't and I don't think we have enough info to say for sure yet.

It could be that Genius Taravangian did anticipate all this and deliberately planted bad information in the Diagram to lead to this result.  Either one of the two options you listed could be true.  I personally just don't think they are.  Taravangian maneuvering events for Renarin seems out of line with his character.  On his smartest days he's selfish and lacks compassion.  He doesn't seem to be the type to set up someone else to be the hero.  The entire purpose of the Diagram and his trip to the Nightwatcher/Cultivation was to glorify himself and make himself the savior.  He didn't ask for the world to be saved, he asked for him to get the power to save it.  The Kaladin idea could be possible but I just don't personally like the idea.  It feels like cheating - Kaladin is protected from Odium and can just go do whatever he wants to win the war.  It also has the same problems with it being out of character for Taravangian setting up someone else to take the spotlight.

I think the "Plant" theory is the most likely one personally.  It seems like this is all part of Cultivation's plans and Dalinar, Lift, and Taravangian are just pawns in her game.  It totally fits with everything we've seen from her so far.  Though to be fair, we haven't seen much.

[garlick]

I think its both. T is cultivations plant.  Also the diagram is working as intended. Manipulate people to do what he wants without writing down the real plan. If its going to work even dumb T can't know the real plan so Odium can't get it from him.

[DiePie]

55 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I don't know that Mr. T can see things Odium can't, exactly or that the reason for this is that it's not "Fortune."  I think the opposite is true - Odium can see exponentially more than Taravangian.  But, for some reason specifically Renarin is hidden from Odium somehow.  My personal guess on that is that the reason is something unique to the relationship between Odium and Renarin/Glys, not something to do with fundamental powers of the Cosmere.  Something like because Glys is partially of Odium, Odium can't foresee Glys/Renarin's actions because they are his own actions in some sense and it creates a paradox or something like that.  The reason I say that is because if it is something more fundamental like "Renarin is immune to all types of future sight! (considering that the Diagram isn't really future sight, it's hyper-intelligent predictions of the future)" that seems overpowered and kind of lame to me.  Not that it couldn't happen, just that I would prefer it doesn't and I don't think we have enough info to say for sure yet

While we don't know specifically that Mr. T wasn't using fortune... he most likely wasn't and was just extrapolating upon his current knowledge. Odium could see far more than Mr. T, but since we don't know the limits of the spiritual realm (and by extension, fortune), Mr. T could have seen things that Odium didn't, perhaps large-scale patterns in the peoples of Roshar, things that wouldn't appear in the spiritual realm but would be obvious to someone closely observing the Physical. 

It would make sense that Renairin would be a blind spot, look at what 2 Atium burners experience

5 minutes ago, garlick said:

I think its both. T is cultivations plant.  Also the diagram is working as intended. Manipulate people to do what he wants without writing down the real plan. If its going to work even dumb T can't know the real plan so Odium can't get it from him.

yeah that's one of the things I was thinking when I proposed this, for all we know it was cultivation's idea for Taravangrian to create false diagram, and she's been manipulating him to have these ideas. The ideas aren't mutually by any means

[teknopathetic he/him]

2 hours ago, DiePie said:

While we don't know specifically that Mr. T wasn't using fortune... he most likely wasn't and was just extrapolating upon his current knowledge.

We do know this. Odium says "You did all this without using fortune?". According to a WoB on the Coppermind, "What happens to Taravangian increases multiple types of intelligence, not just raw 'processing power'. Someone tapping enough feruchemical zinc could achieve something similar but not quite the same". Mr T. used the physical realm to deduce his diagram. The physical realm deduction let him see Renarin where as Odium's future sight did not. This is likely because Renarin also has future sight and that causes feedback, or the nature of Renarin's spren is doing something weird and unknown to Odium (Sja Anat's rebellion).

According to the coppermind,  "The agreement would trade his help by sharing the Diagram's information (though he could not read Renarin's participation) and giving him the Honorblade in exchange for sparing the people of Kharbranth (the city itself, any humans born into it, and their spouses). Odium accepted, placing Taravangian and the Diagram firmly under the control of Dalinar's enemy."

Odium wouldn't work with the Diagram if there wasn't information in there that Odium needed. In my opinion the Honorblade was an extra thing but the diagram was the real thing Odium wanted to control. 

Edited March 18, 2020 by teknopathetic

[Ashspren]

7 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Odium wouldn't work with the Diagram if there wasn't information in there that Odium needed.

I agree. While it's very plausible that the Diagram is a farce by Cultivation, I don't imagine that all of it would be useless. In fact, while it might seem useless to Odium and less-than-genius Taravangian, perhaps there is a hidden message of sorts for genius Taravangian and Cultivation herself. 

Another thing to consider: if genius Taravangian truly wanted people to discern the workings of the Diagram, he would have created some sort of key for his scholars to work with. Instead, he doesn't give them any sort of method to figure out what's happening. I don't think it's too far of a stretch to assume that Cultivation was dictating his actions at this point, making it so that Odium would never have access to that information. 

[teknopathetic he/him]

Just now, Ashspren said:

I agree. While it's very plausible that the Diagram is a farce by Cultivation, I don't imagine that all of it would be useless. In fact, while it might seem useless to Odium and less-than-genius Taravangian, perhaps there is a hidden message of sorts for genius Taravangian and Cultivation herself. 

Another thing to consider: if genius Taravangian truly wanted people to discern the workings of the Diagram, he would have created some sort of key for his scholars to work with. Instead, he doesn't give them any sort of method to figure out what's happening. I don't think it's too far of a stretch to assume that Cultivation was dictating his actions at this point, making it so that Odium would never have access to that information. 

The nature of Cultivation might give her extremely good Physical Realm future sight, which is something entirely different than using Fortune to do so. Odium might be desperately trying to get intel on that form of future sight since he lacks it. Cultivation can use her investiture to see what Ter will do at each step and with what information at what time, so layering the truth would be an extremely good strategy since that completely prevents the diagram from being unpacked by Odium or anyone else. 

It is also important to note that Mr T is the one who told Dalinar about how to trap a spren. That is EXTREMELY suspicious for someone who claims to be only trying to save the kingdom of Karbrandth. Had The diagram not led to very specific actions, Dalinar would not have been able to take the thrill off the map. I smell Cultivation in there somewhere. 

[Ashspren]

5 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

The nature of Cultivation might give her extremely good Physical Realm future sight, which is something entirely different than using Fortune to do so. Odium might be desperately trying to get intel on that form of future sight since he lacks it. Cultivation can use her investiture to see what Ter will do at each step and with what information at what time, so layering the truth would be an extremely good strategy since that completely prevents the diagram from being unpacked by Odium or anyone else. 

Yes, exactly. As the only unshattered, anti-Odium Shard left in the Rosharan system, this aligns with her motivations perfectly. Of course, she couldn't have made the Diagram herself–– she had to act through a human agent–– so she gave Taravangian that one genius day to further her own agenda. 

7 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

It is also important to note that Mr T is the one who told Dalinar about how to trap a spren. That is EXTREMELY suspicious for someone who claims to be only trying to save the kingdom of Karbrandth. Had The diagram not led to very specific actions, Dalinar would not have been able to take the thrill off the map. I smell Cultivation in there somewhere. 

She's definitely pulling the strings. While not-so-genius Taravangian may think that he's working with Odium, he's been the human actor for Cultivation the entire time. 

[DiePie]

21 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

We do know this. Odium says "You did all this without using fortune?" Mr T. used something like logic or insight to perceive it. 

you are most likely right, I would however like to keep the option on the table

Quote

"Taravangian!" Odium said. "This is remarkable." The walls and furniture faded, leaving behind the words, which hung in the air and started glowing with a  golden light. "You did this without access to Fortune, or the Spiritual Realm? Truly incredible."

"Th-thank you?"

"Allow me to show how far I see."

Golden words exploded outwards from the ones Taravangian had written in the Diagram. Millions upon millions of Golden letters burned into the air, extending into infinitry. Each took one small element of hat Taravangian had written and expanded upon it volumes and volumes' worth of information.

The ease at which Odium extrapolates is outstanding, even if he is a god. I would say that the fact he sees everything so easily shows that the diagram, as well as its interpretation were created using the same source. And there are some other things in their conversation that seem sort of weird.

Quote

There. Behind where he stood. A section of words that had faded from golden to black. What was that? As he drew near, Taravangrian saw that the words were blacked out into eternity starting from this point on his wall. As if something had happened here. A ripple in what Odium could see.

Quote

Taravangrian looked up and there, glowing in front of him, was a set of words. A message from himself, in the past. Incredible! Had he somehow seen even this?

For the first quote, if Odium was just interpreting the diagram, there wouldn't be a 'blind spot' in the interpretation. So Odium was most likely using Fortune to interpret them. (though this isn't exactly relevant)

However, there is, a very small chance that Taravangrian could know how his conversation with Odium would go. There just isn't enough known about "the enemy" to tell what his reactions would be, or what he would do or how people could react to him... unless he had fortune. 

Though I guess that wouldn't be possible without Cultivations express intention, so... Mr. T would probably have to be a plant for this to be true.

 

31 minutes ago, Ashspren said:

Another thing to consider: if genius Taravangian truly wanted people to discern the workings of the Diagram, he would have created some sort of key for his scholars to work with. Instead, he doesn't give them any sort of method to figure out what's happening. I don't think it's too far of a stretch to assume that Cultivation was dictating his actions at this point, making it so that Odium would never have access to that information. 

I believe he created an entire language to clearly explain his thoughts, one that was translated, and I also believe he had created a number of keys or codes or ciphers to accomplish the same goal. Also, what is the point of creating directions, if not for people to follow them? (and for that they need to be able to understand them) One way or another, Taravangrian's scholars translated most of the Diagram to be understandable, and Odium easy figured out what it meant using Fortune. It seems like a stretch that Cultivation thought that she could keep the Diagram out of Odium's hands, especially since the Diagram itself predicts that.

[Ashspren]

33 minutes ago, DiePie said:

and I also believe he had created a number of keys or codes or ciphers to accomplish the same goal.

Must have forgotten... it’s been a little while since I’ve read Stormlight. Thanks for the clarification!