Gay Male Protagonist

[Koloss17]

6 hours ago, likehephaestion said:

No not every gay character needs attention. But like the problem is we only know gay minor characters. There are no gay main characters at the moment. "People want equal representation but-" okay stop because there is not equal representation. You can't say that like "you have to be okay with non focus gay characters" when those are the only queer characters there are. (and like I love WoB stuff but also Word of God does not count as actual representation. so until it's shown/told in the books it doesn't count) 

Gay characters who are the only queer character in a story but is not focused on or developed ARE bad representation. Drehy is bad representation and until its in the books In my opinion he is the only gay character. And yeah people are gonna ask about the gay characters, if you only have one. Partiuclarly if the only "gay" thing about that character is a conversation about "oh yeah he's gay" and that's the end of it, the last time it's brought up. And that's where the bad representation comes in. Drehy is the only gay character but like....what's gay about him? (and again i'm not asking for graphic sex) but a queer person's queer-ness doesn't end at their coming out. They're queer before, and after that as well and the problem with Drehy is....we know he's gay but that seems to mean absolutely nothing and yeah we do want to know about him because uhhh until recently that was the only character we for sure knew we had and even now again until it's in the books it doesn't count as representation. 

But like if you want to write a world where being queer doesn't marginalize someone (which I think is what Sanderson is going for here) you can not just have one queer character it makes no sense because, and not to drag queer theory into this conversation, if being queer doesn't marginalize someone then there would be MORE queer people not less. If there is no stigma to being queer, if being queer doesn't exist then being queer loses its meaning and so everyone can be queer. This would lead to more experimentation which would lead to more people realizing their queer rather than spending their life in the closet married to someone they don't love. If being queer isn't stigmatized then teenagers would treat gender like hair color, or perhaps more adeptly for this specific discussion, eye color. You have a preference but why wouldn't you step out of that preference? Sexuality is a social construct, if a society did not construct it then that society would not live by the same rules. There would be TONS of "queer" people because no one ever had to wonder or worry. 

So like not only is Drehy being the only queer character bad representation it's also just not even close to realistic if Sanderson really is trying to write a world where being queer isn't a marginalization. 

So, the thing with Drehy is that he is an actual person in real life. Brandon Sanderson modeled that character off of a friend of his, who was gay. So saying Drehy’s bad rep is walking a risky line, given that he was fairly realistically modeled off of an actual person. Plus, we don’t get to know too much about em. He’s a very shy and reserved character, so we don’t get to know the personality of him very well. So you can definitely make the argument that there isn’t enough gay or just overall LGBTQ+ rep in Brando’s books, but I think that ya might not want to use Drehy as a part of your argument (in my opinion, obviously). 
 

Now it seems like this thread has resurfaced fully, so I will butt in more fully. 
 

If ya want inclusivity, which is obviously understandable, it is very important, then you can see a good example in Mistborn era 2.

Spoiler

Ranett. She is more of a secondary character, and her being a lesbian is no issue. It is casually mentioned, Wayne, being Wayne, asks for a threesome, and the story moved forward. No need to attract attention to it, since there is nowhere else in the plot where it is necessary. 

 

Now I do think that there is a valid point that Brandon does not have enough LGBTQ rep in his books. You can only count a few (pre Rhythm of War and Dawnshard), so he needs to add more. The good news is that he is trying.

if you go back in the thread, it will be mentioned that he wants more LGBT characters in his books, but he worries that he will do it wrong, since he doesn’t have much experience with the LGBTQ+ community. So he is trying. 
 

OH HOLD ON. THIS HAS BEEN MOVED TO ROW. 
 

ok so, Ranarin and Rlain are gay. Two main characters are, in fact, gay. And Thude might possibly also be gay. We have won! Or have we? 
 

Brandon has done good with these characters. They are very three dimensional, and definitely well handled with their gayness. I’d say those two are a win. But now we only have 4 gay characters in  all of the Sandolord’s books. 

 

LGBT-wise, there is more.

Shallan is I believe confirmed to be bi, which is fantastic. I’m still betting my spheres  that Jasnah is asexual. But that’s just me.
 

trans wise, there is also one more person. (Dawnshard spoils)

Spoiler

The king/queen that we see in Urithiru in the beginning of the book.

It’s a very small notion, but my non-binary heart warmed at it.

Lift, though not trans, gave off some body dysphoria vibes in RoW, which resonated with me. I even made a thread about it!

 

 

so does that mean that us,      T h e   G a y s, have won? I think so. I think Brando Sando is going on the right path and is adding more and more of the LGBTQ community, as well as better mental disorder rep! I really like where this is going. We even got a gay main character, which this thread was made for! That beings me much joy, and yes, I do think we have won.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Koloss17
RoW!!!!!

[Comatose]

If I am reading correctly, I think what likehephaestion was focusing on textual representation, so Renarin and Rlain would not count yet under that analysis until they are canonized in the books.  In terms of textual representation thus far - I agree Brandon could do a lot more to show people's Queerness.  Being Queer is more than having a same sex partner.  Having lived not knowing I was gay for the first part of my life, after realizing my sexuality I can 100% say I started seeing and experiencing the world differently.  We need things like Drehy and his partner laughing about funny things their straight friends do, or see inside jokes between Shallan and Adolin about being bisexual (if they ARE both bisexual - I know Adolin's bi-ness is largely conjecture based on a WoB).  The Veil eyeing women with Adolin was nice, but I think it's fair to want more. Once Renarin and Rlain are a thing, it would be nice to see them similarly show some evidence of Queerness aside from their relationship (if it works out).  

I do think Brandon has taken steps to represent Shallan as bisexual in the text, but agree he can do more.  Same with Jasnah - I hope her aceness continues to shape and impact her in a meaningful way.  

For Drehy, I don't think basing him on a real person saves him from this critique.  While the real world person is surely a three-dimensional human being, Brandon has not displayed many aspects of the character who is based on his friend.  The issue isn't with the real person, or the character as he exists in Brandon's head, the issue is what has made it on to the page.  

I get that straight authors can be in a bind - on one hand they don't want to focus too much on a character's sexuality or make it too big a deal, on the other if the extent of a person's queerness is "has same-sex partner" it comes off feeling flat.  People can be queer when single, or when dating an opposite-sex partner - the queer identity goes well beyond the person you are with.  When I am looking for representation, I am looking to see myself and people like me in literature.  Showing people in same-sex relationships is a start - but good representation should be more three dimensional than that.  

I think part of the issue (and the point of this thread) is we haven't gotten a gay protagonist or viewpoint character yet.  Drehy is only viewed externally - we get straight people reacting to his same-sex relationship, but we don't get any of his internal queer experience.  Hopefully, with Renarin and Rlain, who are both viewpoint characters, we will get more queerness going forward.  

[Small Mod Note: Let's be careful about playing devil's advocate on topics that are personal to people - I think people are doing okay here, and I want this conversation to continue (hence my post above) but just want people to be careful and respectful - thanks!]

[Kingsdaughter613]

13 minutes ago, Comatose said:

If I am reading correctly, I think what likehephaestion was focusing on textual representation, so Renarin and Rlain would not count yet under that analysis until they are canonized in the books.  In terms of textual representation thus far - I agree Brandon could do a lot more to show people's Queerness.  Being Queer is more than having a same sex partner.  Having lived not knowing I was gay for the first part of my life, after realizing my sexuality I can 100% say I started seeing and experiencing the world differently.  We need things like Drehy and his partner laughing about funny things their straight friends do, or see inside jokes between Shallan and Adolin about being bisexual (if they ARE both bisexual - I know Adolin's bi-ness is largely conjecture based on a WoB).  The Veil eyeing women with Adolin was nice, but I think it's fair to want more. Once Renarin and Rlain are a thing, it would be nice to see them similarly show some evidence of Queerness aside from their relationship (if it works out).  

I do think Brandon has taken steps to represent Shallan as bisexual in the text, but agree he can do more.  Same with Jasnah - I hope her aceness continues to shape and impact her in a meaningful way.  

For Drehy, I don't think basing him on a real person saves him from this critique.  While the real world person is surely a three-dimensional human being, Brandon has not displayed many aspects of the character who is based on his friend.  The issue isn't with the real person, or the character as he exists in Brandon's head, the issue is what has made it on to the page.  

I get that straight authors can be in a bind - on one hand they don't want to focus too much on a character's sexuality or make it too big a deal, on the other if the extent of a person's queerness is "has same-sex partner" it comes off feeling flat.  People can be queer when single, or when dating an opposite-sex partner - the queer identity goes well beyond the person you are with.  When I am looking for representation, I am looking to see myself and people like me in literature.  Showing people in same-sex relationships is a start - but good representation should be more three dimensional than that.  

I think part of the issue (and the point of this thread) is we haven't gotten a gay protagonist or viewpoint character yet.  Drehy is only viewed externally - we get straight people reacting to his same-sex relationship, but we don't get any of his internal queer experience.  Hopefully, with Renarin and Rlain, who are both viewpoint characters, we will get more queerness going forward.  

[Small Mod Note: Let's be careful about playing devil's advocate on topics that are personal to people - I think people are doing okay here, and I want this conversation to continue (hence my post above) but just want people to be careful and respectful - thanks!]

Or that’s just your experience. My sexuality is not an important part of my identity at all and I’ve never understood all the fuss about it. Or why it’s so hard for people to figure out who their attracted to; isn’t it obvious? And no, I’m not straight. My faith, my family and my community are far more important to who I am. Realizing there was a label for it didn’t change anything about me at all. Why should it?

And if you want to talk about rep: find me ONE homosexual/heteromantic or heterosexual/homoromantic character anywhere please. Apparently we’re either super rare or super ignored or both.

[Greywatch]

27 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Or that’s just your experience. My sexuality is not an important part of my identity at all and I’ve never understood all the fuss about it. Or why it’s so hard for people to figure out who their attracted to; isn’t it obvious? And no, I’m not straight. My faith, my family and my community are far more important to who I am. Realizing there was a label for it didn’t change anything about me at all. Why should it?

And if you want to talk about rep: find me ONE homosexual/heteromantic or heterosexual/homoromantic character anywhere please. Apparently we’re either super rare or super ignored or both.

It not being that central to you doesn't take away the importance from other people. In a post about trying to be careful to respect others' experience and feelings, this came across as not that. Comatose wasn't trying to speak for all queer people. It's perfectly okay for you to not see the fuss about it, but Comatose's experience still matters and is important, too. It didn't lose importance because it's not personally meaningful to every single queer person.

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 hour ago, Greywatch said:

It not being that central to you doesn't take away the importance from other people. In a post about trying to be careful to respect others' experience and feelings, this came across as not that. Comatose wasn't trying to speak for all queer people. It's perfectly okay for you to not see the fuss about it, but Comatose's experience still matters and is important, too. It didn't lose importance because it's not personally meaningful to every single queer person.

Exactly. That’s his experience. It isn’t mine, which I described. Comatose claimed that all queer people act in a particular manner and that the discovery of their sexuality alters behaviors and was unhappy with some character not expressing those traits. This is what I was disagreeing with.

SOME queer people express specific behaviors that are associated with being queer. Others read completely straight. For SOME people the realization alters their self perception and behaviors greatly. For others it doesn’t. For some individuals their sexuality is the most important element of their self; for others it’s a minor consideration.

I really don’t get how people ‘discover’ their sexuality. Don’t you just know? This constantly confuses me. How do you not know? And I mean this honestly; I just don’t get how you don’t know. Not knowing the label I get, but not recognizing what stimuli your body reacts to?

Edited December 21, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613

[Koloss17]

11 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

 

I really don’t get how people ‘discover’ their sexuality. Don’t you just know? This constantly confuses me. How do you not know? And I mean this honestly; I just don’t get how you don’t know. Not knowing the label I get, but not recognizing what stimuli your body reacts to?

Well, I can’t speak for everyone, and I figured out my gender, not sexuality, but I can share how I discovered my gender.

basically I had to first figure myself out. Figure out what I liked and dislikes about my gender at birth. I figured that out after some reflection, and I learned about agender. I found that fit what I felt about my gender. 
 

Now gender is definitely different than sexuality, but it was a process of figuring out myself, and then figuring out what label best fit. I bet it is something like that for others.

[yulyulk]

21 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

 I really don’t get how people ‘discover’ their sexuality. Don’t you just know? This constantly confuses me. How do you not know? And I mean this honestly; I just don’t get how you don’t know. Not knowing the label I get, but not recognizing what stimuli your body reacts to?

People experience gender and sexuality differently based on their particular backgrounds. As with Shallan, one can repress anything if traumatized enough, and if you grow up in an environment where being lgbt is stigmatized, then you can subconsciously train yourself to ignore your own desires, or explain them away as being platonic, etc. 

This whole thread seems to about how one particular lgbt character cannot possibly represent the experiences of ALL lgbt people. And that's fine, it would be an impossible task anyway. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

6 minutes ago, yulyulk said:

People experience gender and sexuality differently based on their particular backgrounds. As with Shallan, one can repress anything if traumatized enough, and if you grow up in an environment where being lgbt is stigmatized, then you can subconsciously train yourself to ignore your own desires, or explain them away as being platonic, etc. 

This whole thread seems to about how one particular lgbt character cannot possibly represent the experiences of ALL lgbt people. And that's fine, it would be an impossible task anyway. 

I... grew up in the Orthodox Jewish community. I didn’t even know homosexuality existed until my late teens. I think that’s part of what I don’t get; how could I grow up not even knowing what being gay was and still know and accept myself, while people who grow up in environments more open to LGBTQ+ struggle to acknowledge and accept themselves?

[Comatose]

48 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Exactly. That’s her experience. It isn’t mine, which I described. Comatose claimed that all queer people act in a particular manner and that the discovery of their sexuality alters behaviors and was unhappy with some character not expressing those traits. This is what I was disagreeing with.

SOME queer people express specific behaviors that are associated with being queer. Others read completely straight. For SOME people the realization alters their self perception and behaviors greatly. For others it doesn’t. For some individuals their sexuality is the most important element of their self; for others it’s a minor consideration.

I really don’t get how people ‘discover’ their sexuality. Don’t you just know? This constantly confuses me. How do you not know? And I mean this honestly; I just don’t get how you don’t know. Not knowing the label I get, but not recognizing what stimuli your body reacts to?

I definitely did not mean to imply my experience is true for everyone (also he/him - not sure who you were using 'her' to describe ).  My purpose in sharing my personal experience was that sexuality, like faith and culture, can change how people see the world around them.  I'm not trying to say its the predominant factor that colours the lens in which people view the world, but in my opinion a person's sexuality usually should be a factor, even if it is a small one.  To use your example - even if sexuality is not an important part of one's identity, it's still a part of a person's identity right?  If you object to that point, then I guess we have a fair difference of opinion, but that's the only point I was trying to make - in my opinion queer characters should be somewhat shaped by their orientations, to varying extents.  The more variety we have in the extent to which sexuality is a factor the better, but right now we have very few textual examples so it's tough to say.  If we can have some characters, like Renarin and Rlain maybe, showing some evidence of their queerness colouring their experience, then maybe Drehy having his queerness not impact him much could be a nice counterpoint.  

EDIT [Spoilers - Personal Sidebar for people who want to read that]: 

Spoiler

To your second point, I can't speak for everyone, but this was my experience:  Basically when I was young I 'questioned' my sexuality by basically saying to myself 'Am I gay? Nope!'.  Attraction for me at that time was a very intentional thing - I decided I should like a girl, picked one who 'made sense' and then pursued a relationship if she seemed open to the idea.  As I grew older, I began meeting and interacting with other gay men, and began to realize I had a lot in common with them.  The new perspectives made me take a real look at myself, and opened me up to the idea that my initial questioning hadn't been as thorough as I thought.  I also began to realize attraction can be an involuntary thing.

In hindsight - I was absolutely gay my entire life, and was experiencing attraction to men without realizing it.  The point is I didn't have the contextual information to process those feelings, and so didn't recognize that part of myself until later on.  

 

[yulyulk]

6 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I... grew up in the Orthodox Jewish community. I didn’t even know homosexuality existed until my late teens. I think that’s part of what I don’t get; how could I grow up not even knowing what being gay was and still know and accept myself, while people who grow up in environments more open to LGBTQ+ struggle to acknowledge and accept themselves?

People are unique. Put two different people through the same trauma, and they might respond in completely opposite ways. Like sometimes I can't understand why other people operate the way they do, but that doesn't make it their feelings any less legitimate.

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 minute ago, Comatose said:

I definitely did not mean to imply my experience is true for everyone (also he/him - not sure who you were using 'her' to describe ).  My purpose in sharing my personal experience was that sexuality, like faith and culture, can change how people see the world around them.  I'm not trying to say its the predominant factor that colours the lens in which people view the world, but in my opinion a person's sexuality usually should be a factor, even if it is a small one.  To use your example - even if sexuality is not an important part of one's identity, it's still a part of a person's identity right?  If you object to that point, then I guess we have a fair difference of opinion, but that's the only point I was trying to make - in my opinion queer characters should be somewhat shaped by their orientations, to varying extents.  The more variety we have in the extent to which sexuality is a factor the better, but right now we have very few textual examples so it's tough to say.  If we can have some characters, like Renarin and Rlain maybe, showing some evidence of their queerness colouring their experience, then maybe Drehy having his queerness not impact him much could be a nice counterpoint.  

I use her as a gender neutral pronoun to combat the usage of he as gender neutral, lol. I picked it up from Honor Harrington. I’ll fix it.

I agree that it does impact, but I think the extent varies for people. I mean, absolutely no one thinks I’m anything but straight unless I tell them, and we haven’t really been in Drehy’s head to see how he feels. He’s also married, so he may not feel like looking at other men. And Roshar lacks the kind of subculture we have here, as LGBTQ+ is accepted, at least in the Vorin kingdoms.

I don’t think Rlain should come off as anything but ace unless he’s in mateform. That’s just how Singers/Listeners are. They’re a different species.

Renarin has read very gay to a lot of people though and Jasnah definitely read ace. And Shallan reads quite bi, so I definitely think there is some showing of variation, which is nice.

5 minutes ago, yulyulk said:

People are unique. Put two different people through the same trauma, and they might respond in completely opposite ways. Like sometimes I can't understand why other people operate the way they do, but that doesn't make it their feelings any less legitimate.

I don’t think other people’s feelings are invalid; I’m trying to understand their experiences because mine are so different.

[Comatose]

16 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I use her as a gender neutral pronoun to combat the usage of he as gender neutral, lol. I picked it up from Honor Harrington. I’ll fix it.

I agree that it does impact, but I think the extent varies for people. I mean, absolutely no one thinks I’m anything but straight unless I tell them, and we haven’t really been in Drehy’s head to see how he feels. He’s also married, so he may not feel like looking at other men. And Roshar lacks the kind of subculture we have here, as LGBTQ+ is accepted, at least in the Vorin kingdoms.

I don’t think Rlain should come off as anything but ace unless he’s in mateform. That’s just how Singers/Listeners are. They’re a different species.

Renarin has read very gay to a lot of people though and Jasnah definitely read ace. And Shallan reads quite bi, so I definitely think there is some showing of variation, which is nice.

I don’t think other people’s feelings are invalid; I’m trying to understand their experiences because mine are so different.

I realized I didn't answer the second part of your last post re: experience, so I've edited mine above.  

I think we are mostly on the same page.  I disagree that Vorin Roshar would lack queer subculture.  Same-Sex couples would still experience things differently due to the strict Vorin gender roles.  Since opposite sex couples are still presented as the 'norm', even if they are not facing overt prejudice, same sex couples would still face assumptions of straightness.  The conversation about Drehy's sexuality in the last book is a good example - we have never seen a straight person's sexuality discussed like that on Roshar.  It would have been nice if that scene had happened from Drehy's perspective (Unless I missed it in RoW, we also have yet to see Drehy and his husband in a scene together I think, so there's that too). Gavilar expects Jasnah to marry a man of his choosing without any consideration of her wishes or possible orientation - evidencing both outdated patriarchal attitudes towards marriage, as well as an expectation of straightness (or at least a denial of queerness if it exists).  I can agree that queer sub-culture on Roshar would be different due to Vorinism's apparent lack of historical persecution of queer people, but I think the common experiences that many queer people on Roshar would have (I can accept this wouldn't be true for everyone) would still create some form of subculture.  

To look at it another way, Rlain is from a fictional race, but we get a clear picture of how his race as a Listener impacts his lived experience.  Queer characters on Roshar might be from a fictional version of queer subculture, but it would be nice to still get a sense of how that subculture impacts them, even if in minor ways.  

I absolutely agree that part of the issue is we haven't seen in Drehy's head.  That's why I think having a queer person in a protagonist/viewpoint role is so important.  

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 minute ago, Comatose said:

I realized I didn't answer the second part of your last post re: experience, so I've edited mine above.  

I think we are mostly on the same page.  I do disagree that Vorin Roshar would lack queer subculture.  Same-Sex couples would still experience things differently due to the strict Vorin gender roles.  Since opposite sex couples are still presented as the 'norm', even if they are not facing overt prejudice, same sex couples would still face assumptions of straightness.  The conversation about Drehy's sexuality in the last book is a good example - we have never seen a straight person's sexuality discussed like that on Roshar.  Gavilar expects Jasnah to marry a man of his choosing without any consideration of her wishes or possible orientation - evidencing both outdated patriarchal attitudes towards marriage, as well as an expectation of straightness (or at least a denial of queerness if it exists).  I can agree that queer sub-culture on Roshar would be different due to Vorinism's apparent lack of historical persecution of queer people, but I think the common experiences that many queer people on Roshar would have (I can accept this wouldn't be true for everyone) would still create some form of subculture.  

To look at it another way, Rlain is from a fictional race, but we get a clear picture of how his race as a Listener impacts his lived experience.  Queer characters on Roshar might be from a fictional version of queer subculture, but it would be nice to still get a sense of how that subculture impacts them, even if in minor ways.  

I absolutely agree that part of the issue is we haven't seen in Drehy's head.  That's why I think having a queer person in a protagonist/viewpoint role is so important.  

I mean, we do have Shallan. And we’ve been in Jasnah and Renarin’s heads, and we’ll get more of them in the back five.

That’s what I meant, and you expressed it better than I could. The culture would be there, but not like ours is. I wonder if it wouldn’t be something like Lesbian and gay couples tag-teaming, so the women could act as scribes and the men as protectors? It would very much be based around the culture, which we don’t see nearly enough of.

[Aspiring Writer]

8 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Exactly. That’s his experience. It isn’t mine, which I described. Comatose claimed that all queer people act in a particular manner and that the discovery of their sexuality alters behaviors and was unhappy with some character not expressing those traits. This is what I was disagreeing with.

SOME queer people express specific behaviors that are associated with being queer. Others read completely straight. For SOME people the realization alters their self perception and behaviors greatly. For others it doesn’t. For some individuals their sexuality is the most important element of their self; for others it’s a minor consideration.

I really don’t get how people ‘discover’ their sexuality. Don’t you just know? This constantly confuses me. How do you not know? And I mean this honestly; I just don’t get how you don’t know. Not knowing the label I get, but not recognizing what stimuli your body reacts to?

Damnation it, thank you. This is exactly how I feel about a lot of this. People keep saying sexuality changes their world view and I DON"T GET IT. What changes, I seriously want to understand. I've asked my friend, and he just shrugs. And writing-wise, BS not having people's identity centered on their sexuality is not bad as that represents a sub-group in the LGBT community. I can see people wanting to see someone who does have their sexuality an important factor (Though I will say, the cultures on Roshar may throw some monkey wrenches into that.) but we should not say he is doing rep badly. 

[Comatose]

2 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Goddamn it, thank you. This is exactly how I feel about a lot of this. People keep saying sexuality changes their world view and I DON"T GET IT. What changes, I seriously want to understand. I've asked my friend, and he just shrugs. And writing-wise, BS not having people's identity centered on their sexuality is not bad as that represents a sub-group in the LGBT community. I can see people wanting to see someone who does have their sexuality an important factor (Though I will say, the cultures on Roshar may throw some monkey wrenches into that.) but we should not say he is doing rep badly. 

I think part of your confusion may be that you are conflating sexuality having an impact on and forming a part of a person's identity, and sexuality being a dominant part of a person's identity.  For me at least, when I say I want to see a character whose sexuality shapes their world view, I don't mean that it changes a queer character into a totally different person than they would be if they were straight - all I'm looking for is some indication that their sexuality has some impact on who they are (large or small).  Their characterization definitely does not need to be centered on their sexuality, but to me it feels inauthentic for a character to identify as queer but otherwise be exactly the same as their straight peers, if that makes sense.  

I think what it comes down to, is people who have lived with being different want to see people who live with differences like theirs in fiction.  The positive impact of seeing someone who is gay, or who has a disability, or who is transgender is lessened, I think, if the only marker of that part of their identity is a couple of sentences of factual information.  If the marker of difference does not impact who the character is as a person, the representation feels more hollow.  

To use an example - I'm gay, I'm a Mennonite, I'm a lawyer, and I'm a millennial.  Adolin is Vorin, heir to a princedom, straight (or bi), and was born while his country was at war.  Drehy is a former slave, gay, and is talented at combat.  Rysn's life was changed when she acquired her disability.  All of these are aspects of identity that shape who a person or character is.  The criticism isn't that one part of that identity (like sexuality) should be dominant, the criticism is when other parts of a person's identity have an impact on who they are, but their sexuality (especially queerness) does not, it kind of feels like the person isn't actually from the group they are supposed to be representing.  By my read, most people here are NOT asking for any character's identity to be "centered on their sexuality" - they are asking for authentic and meaningful representation that goes beyond lip service.  

Personally I think Brandon is doing fairly well in terms of lots of different kinds of representation, and I do not think he is a bad person or author based on his work thus far - I'm a huge fan.  I do think there is room to critique his work though on the issue of representation of queerness, and I am hopeful that he will do a good job of it in the future.

[AonEne]

10 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

I’m still betting my spheres  that Jasnah is asexual. But that’s just me.

She's been confirmed, actually!

7 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I don’t think Rlain should come off as anything but ace unless he’s in mateform. That’s just how Singers/Listeners are. They’re a different species.

He can be homoromantic and asexual at the same time - there's nothing saying that romantic attraction is only in mateform for singers.

[Elsecaller_17.5]

17 hours ago, likehephaestion said:

There are no gay main characters at the moment.

Friend, did you watch the livestream thursday?

[Greywatch]

15 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Friend, did you watch the livestream thursday?

The conversation has been in and around that - likehephaestion is aware, but they are not in the text right now, and it may be years, for SA5 or even beyond, until their orientation and/or relationship gets significant focus in the text.

[likehephaestion]

47 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Friend, did you watch the livestream thursday?

I did I caught the tail end of the livestream and I'm so glad I did! And in fact the last sentence of the very paragraph you quoted addresses why I am sticking to "there are no gay main characters." 

I am so incredibly excited for Renarin to be queer. I cried about it to my friends forEVER. Not only do we get a queer character but we get an autistic queer character. But it doesn't count until its in the text, if we let Word of God additions count we'll get more "oh actually that character was gay" and authors won't have to do the actual work of writing marginalized characters. And that's not real representation. 

[Elsecaller_17.5]

1 hour ago, likehephaestion said:

I did I caught the tail end of the livestream and I'm so glad I did! And in fact the last sentence of the very paragraph you quoted addresses why I am sticking to "there are no gay main characters." 

I am so incredibly excited for Renarin to be queer. I cried about it to my friends forEVER. Not only do we get a queer character but we get an autistic queer character. But it doesn't count until its in the text, if we let Word of God additions count we'll get more "oh actually that character was gay" and authors won't have to do the actual work of writing marginalized characters. And that's not real representation. 

Ok I see where your coming from now.  I'd argue there still is a big difference between an author announcing that for an ongoing series vs a long finished one *cough* jk Rowling *cough*

Another interesting thought is that if we consider that 10 focus characters to be the 10 "main characters" then we arguably have a 30% queer main cast. Jasnah confirmed in RoW and Renarin and Shallan (I acknowledge some disagree on that one) by WoB. Say what you will bit that is very inclusive group.

(Bonus points: venli is also asexual but that goes with species. One could argue 40% though I would not.)

Edit: @Greywatch I meant that comment to be read facetiously, apologies for any offense.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Elsecaller_17.5

[beejsbj]

On 12/21/2020 at 4:00 AM, Aspiring Writer said:

and in Roshar it would be safe to assume they would be even less, so one out of fifty people would be queer,

sorry no that doesn't pan out. Roshar doesn't have internet. its fastest mode of communication is spanreeds. LGBT population has to have much higher than it is in our world for someone like kaladin to not be developing shock, bias and stigma against them because of limited exposure. if its part of their religious text, they must have made up a significant population to be visible and recognized.

[Kingsdaughter613]

5 hours ago, beejsbj said:

sorry no that doesn't pan out. Roshar doesn't have internet. its fastest mode of communication is spanreeds. LGBT population has to have much higher than it is in our world for someone like kaladin to not be developing shock, bias and stigma against them because of limited exposure. if its part of their religious text, they must have made up a significant population to be visible and recognized.

Seeing as LGBTQ+ exist in most religious texts (albeit in the negative, at least in modern ones) that isn’t really indicative. Hermaphrodites also get brought up in several texts, despite their rarity. Judaism has special rules about hermaphrodites despite them being a tiny population. (To be fair, Judaism has rules about EVERYTHING.)

Not to mention, the Jewish people are less than 1% of the world’s population, but I’m pretty sure most of the world has heard of this tiny ethnic group! There are more LGBTQ+ people than there are Jews, so by your definition no one should have heard of a Jewish person.

Historically there have been many different cultures with many different opinions on homosexuality, including some like the Azish (change of gender forms?). It’s only since Christianity really took off that the predominant opinion has been negative. Note that on the world with the most Christianity-like religion gay relationships are not accepted by most of the population. At least in the North.

Edited December 27, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613

[Honorless]

Okay, so three things this topic keeps circling back to that I haven't properly addressed yet: the practical challenges of trying to write LGBT characters, the statistical probability of encountering a gay person and the politics that gets involved if you're LGBT

1) I think the root of the characterization problem with writing LGBT people comes from:
A) the fact that most writers draw inspiration more from what they've read than from reality, the fact that there already are so few LGBT characters in literature to begin with makes the situation something of a catch 22.
This also creates another problem where a gay couple is portrayed basically as a heterosexual couple: where the sex of the partners is homosexual but their roles are the traditional heterosexual one: one's the man, the other one's the woman. Anyone who's ever read any slash fanfiction can confirm.
B ) Socio-political problems. The "trying to represent these groups is terrifying" thing is real. It would be nice for all involved if it wasn't but it is. Sorry we're a wee bit touchy but when you have to fight simply because you exist while at the same time having to be nice most of the time because like it or not, how nice you act towards someone often has a very large influence on that someone's perception of gay people, it's exhausting. I think we have a right to be angry.
Speaking of "these groups", we should talk about intersectionalities, which I'll do in (3) to explain a few complicated things that aren't usually spoken of directly, hopefully it'll give you some perspective. I'll try not to make it too salty and you, I hope, will try to be nice about it.
(Oh, and yes, Brandon does not have the experience of a gay man, but last I checked he did not have the experience of being a woman or a crab woman either.)

2) Statistics, addressing the most frequent points:
A) Most cultures do not accept gay people, so the statistics of how many of us there are is going to be skewed. (And congratulations on discovering the meaning of the word "minority")

B ) Historical records are rather infamous for gay erasure. *cue historians saying "they were just friends" memes.

C) LGBT population cannot be compared with minority ethnic groups in terms of possible exposure, the latter are mostly localized, LGBT people live all across the globe, much to the consternation of both sides, but most unfortunately for some of us have to live in places like the Middle East or central Africa or Russia... which is a nice segway into:

3) Intersectionality, for those not into the social sciences, intersectionality can be described as the interconnected nature of social categorizations (race, religion, class, gender, sexuality) creating overlapping, interdependent and compounding systems of discrimination / disadvantage. The description is of course sanitized, lacking context of the horrifying experience of wading through this chull dung for the unfortunate many. (I won't get into it much, but there's plenty of YouTubers who're less shy about discussing these issues and are relatively easy to find due to how famous they are, if this is something you would like to look into further.) When this word is used, the accompanying discussion usually focuses on the "overlap/interdependent" part, what I want to give you some context for is the "compounding" part. 
Religion, for instance, can be quite, quite hostile to gay people, the complications that arise from trying to address such a difficult issue is what I mean by compounding intersectionality, because irrespective of your stance on religion or homosexuality, any statement made addressing both in relation to one another becomes political. Your reactions can go, broadly, in three directions here: offense if your religious beliefs go against the acceptance of LGBT people, or "eep please don't rock the boat" if you're politically moderate and possibly even when you're stuck in a situation of compounded intersectionality because it makes it easier to navigate life, or "things cannot be changed for the better if you don't admit that something's wrong in the first place" if you're the campaigning type, etc. Unfortunately most politics take the first two options, and unfortunately for some of us, we're acceptable casualty for the sake of the ongoing social contract of niceness, which usually halts such discussions in any mixed setting. You have the option of ignoring these uncomfortable, inconvenient politics, for people like me, that's just our (sucky) existence.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Honorless

[Vissy]

A Memory Called Empire. Read it. Lesbian protagonist, lovely scifi-drama-political stuff. That is the type of book I want more of.

[AquaRegia]

I am honored to join the Eternal Thread.  I’m sorry I missed the beginning… but I see it as a blessing that I was forced to read 12 pages of heartfelt discussion before responding.  

I’m confident we can all agree: we crave divergent points of view in our heroes, done convincingly and authentically.  Some of us prefer to wait, rather than see it done poorly; others want it NOW, perfect or not.  I see the allure of both opinions.

I really just want to give everyone here a hug, and thank you for all the thought, effort and passion that has gone into this glorious work of messy art.  We are all flawed humans, trying to cope in an imperfect world.  We all deserve love, respect, and storms yes, representation in literature.  Thanks to AonEne, Comatose, Kidpen, The Awakened Salad, likehephaestion, and to Honorless, especially, for being willing to reach out to others and share their (sometimes painful) realities.  Isn’t the point of fiction to help us understand each other’s stories?  This topic has definitely done so for me.  From this vanilla white male cis/het, thank you all.

Finally, while I know the OP specifically asked about gay male protagonists, I do want to call attention to another incremental Sanderson triumph in RoW - our first trans viewpoint character.  I love that Leshwi is unquestionably a "she" to literally everyone, even people who have ONLY EVER SEEN HER in a malen body, e.g., Kaladin.  I found the writing so natural and convincing that I was finished with the book before I realized: “wait - so Leshwi is trans…?”  Well done, sir.

EDIT:  I have re-read some of the Leshwi scenes, and I was mistaken (thanks to Daggon Forescout).  Kaladin HAS seen Leshwi in other bodies (presumably at least some were femalen) before their first ONSCREEN meeting.  Also, Leshwi isn't a "viewpoint" character... but we do see her quite a bit through Venli.  I apologize for being a little overenthusiastic.

Edited January 6, 2021 by AquaRegia
factual update