Most Powerful Knight's Radiant Order?

[Karger]

22 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I could see that. Though they would still run the risk of getting killed in the attacks towards the elsecallers, and stonewards. 

My point is that they would be intermixing with several different groups on the field using cryptic code to communicate with each other and changing as needed.  This basically guarantees that they will have fighters left when all but one other team has been eliminated meaning that they have at least a 50% chance of winning any given mach up.

 

All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near. Variant translations. A military operation involves deception.

Edited August 14, 2019 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

25 minutes ago, Karger said:

My point is that they would be intermixing with several different groups on the field using cryptic code to communicate with each other and changing as needed.  This basically guarantees that they will have fighters left when all but one other team has been eliminated meaning that they have at least a 50% chance of winning any given mach up.

 

All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near. Variant translations. A military operation involves deception.

Right, which is clever, but they still run the risk of when an explosion strikes the elsecallers, if an lightweaver is among them, the lightweaver could get caught in that same explosion. If the aim of the skybreakers is the carpet bomb the whole area, killing anyone that is not them, and the lightweavers cannot fly, then there is still going to be a chance the lightweavers are going to get caught in the damage. Hence the DnD joke comment about how illusions can't stop a fireball.

 

edit: if you notice, earlier I wrote how the lightweavers have a pretty diverse range to draw on. I enjoy illusionists. I was just mentioning how illusions tend to be handled in DnD. Going straight single target attack is going to get you no where. Explosive area effect will. 

 

edit 2: LOL just had a hilarious picture in my mind. Lightweaver hiding among elsecallers. Skybreakers come in for a carpet bomb run. Elsecallers teleport out of dodge. Lightweaver realizes he or she is now alone in the path of destruction and goes "oh crap" lol

Edited August 14, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

8 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

edit 2: LOL just had a hilarious picture in my mind. Lightweaver hiding among elsecallers. Skybreakers come in for a carpet bomb run. Elsecallers teleport out of dodge. Lightweaver realizes he or she is now alone in the path of destruction and goes "oh crap" lol

We don't actually know how that works.  It could be that Elsecallers move area not mass and as such the lightweavers will go with them.  I also don't see the skybreaker carpet bombing lasting against the much more numerous windrunners.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

We don't actually know how that works.  It could be that Elsecallers move area not mass and as such the lightweavers will go with them.  I also don't see the skybreaker carpet bombing lasting against the much more numerous windrunners.

Well we know Jasnah teleporting in with Wit around did not effect him, and he was near her. We also know the oathgates can choose to include or exclude in the transfer. But yeah not going to fight on that hill. I was making a tongue in cheek joke. Think whatever you want about it. 

[Karger]

14 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Well we know Jasnah teleporting in with Wit around did not effect him, and he was near her. We also know the oathgates can choose to include or exclude in the transfer. But yeah not going to fight on that hill. I was making a tongue in cheek joke. Think whatever you want about it. 

I agree that the image is funny.

[Hoid and Seek]

I had to vote Bondsmith.  Assuming that a 5th ideal Bondsmith could modify the oaths or place extra restrictions on the oaths required to bond with a spren which would essentially strip away or reduce the abilities of the other orders.

[Honorless]

Probably Lightweavers, they've got offence, defense and supplies handled with one Surge, infiltration and get-away with another

[Karger]

On 8/14/2019 at 2:43 PM, Pathfinder said:

edit 2: LOL just had a hilarious picture in my mind. Lightweaver hiding among elsecallers. Skybreakers come in for a carpet bomb run. Elsecallers teleport out of dodge. Lightweaver realizes he or she is now alone in the path of destruction and goes "oh crap" lol

Lightweavers might be able to get to the CR.

[Truthless of Shinovar]

I vote for the Lightweavers, just because of all their wave stuff, which means lasers, gamma rays, giant explosions, etc.

[IcaroRibeiro]

When we look at the surges only, Lightweavers and Elsecallers are ridiculously powerful. However, those are orders from (mainly) scholars, diplomats/politicians (for Elsecallers) and artists (for Lightweavers). Though I believe they learn enough fighting skills to provide support at wars, their use of surges weren't mainly for fighting, but also for research, support, spying and strategic move. As much we don't know the extension of elsecalling, I think it is hard to determine how could them use their surge to teleport themselves. Point is, despite their latent power I doubt they would win in a long-therm battle

 

Meanwhile Windrunners were the base protection soldiers of common folk, Skybreakers were some kind of police force and Dustbringers were probably assassins/war combatents. They sound all warfare orders and probably have a structured command/fighting hierarchy. So in a war, they are the likely  winners 

[Pathfinder]

On 12/15/2019 at 11:08 AM, Ookla the Prolific said:

Lightweavers might be able to get to the CR.

Don't quote me on this, and give me time to dig, but I could have sworn there was a later subsequent WoB where he elaborated stating they could not (there is one saying they cannot, one saying they can, and then a third more recent one. The more recent one is the one I am referring to). I believe the confusion came in because of what occurred with the oathgate during oathbringer. But again, this is going on memory, and the subsequent WoB may very well not be enough for you. 

[Karger]

12 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Don't quote me on this, and give me time to dig, but I could have sworn there was a later subsequent WoB where he elaborated stating they could not (there is one saying they cannot, one saying they can, and then a third more recent one. The more recent one is the one I am referring to). I believe the confusion came in because of what occurred with the oathgate during oathbringer. But again, this is going on memory, and the subsequent WoB may very well not be enough for you. 

Maybe.  However there is some implication in that WoR quote that the lightweavers could do it but where inferior to the elsecallers.

16 hours ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

However, those are orders from (mainly) scholars, diplomats/politicians (for Elsecallers) and artists (for Lightweavers). Though I believe they learn enough fighting skills to provide support at wars, their use of surges weren't mainly for fighting, but also for research, support, spying and strategic move. As much we don't know the extension of elsecalling, I think it is hard to determine how could them use their surge to teleport themselves. Point is, despite their latent power I doubt they would win in a long-therm battle

My reasoning for Lightweavers is that they could disguise themselves as Radiants from other orders thus avoiding the need to do battle all together until very late in the fight when most of the other orders have exhausted their numbers to some degree.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Ookla the Prolific

[+Oltux72]

16 hours ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

Meanwhile Windrunners were the base protection soldiers of common folk,

That I actually doubt. Fortifications are very important in premodern warfare. Roshar is made for that kind of warfare.

• If you can shape stone, material is readily available
• Long sieges are difficult
• Building an earthen ramp is not an option

An argument can be made that the core combat troops that really counted were the Stonewards.

[Pathfinder]

22 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Maybe.  However there is some implication in that WoR quote that the lightweavers could do it but where inferior to the elsecallers.

Are you referring to the quote talking about the elsecallers benevolence as the primary liaisons between the physical and cognitive realms?

[Karger]

26 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Are you referring to the quote talking about the elsecallers benevolence as the primary liaisons between the physical and cognitive realms?

Yes.  It said primary not only.

[Pathfinder]

7 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Yes.  It said primary not only.

It could be reasoned that the astral projection ability that transformation affords into the cognitive realm would count as that. That you create an investiture bubble of "you" in the cognitive realm. Able to communicate, and vulnerable, but not fully transfered into the cognitive realm. That the reason elsecallers are the primary, is due to being able to both fully transfer (like willshapers) but also "astrally project" like the lightweavers. Now I stress the phrase "it could be reasoned". I am not saying that is the only way to see it. Like I said earlier, I still have to dig regarding the third WoB. 

[Quantus]

To the OP, I have to think that the Binders of Gods would be the most powerful and very likely to be the ones with the most capability for large-scale action if we are crediting one with the spiritual reformatting of an entire race (shenanigans notwithstanding).  If nothing else they are certainly bonded to the most powerful Spren, so just imagine an enemy that has the Highstorm itself on their side as well as all the unique Combatants that the Nightwatcher could theoretically create, and Im going to go ahead and propose that they'd get command of Urithiru via the Sibling.  

Aside from those I think the Lightweavers have the most Power potential (which I suspect is why Hoid gets to be one).  Soulcasting is arguably one of the most potent Powers in the Cosmere (and I personally think it's THE most potent single ability), because it lets you fundamentally reformat a person or object, which with enough subtlety means you can freely manipulate the Spiritweb itself; the required skills and energy are wildly different but in practice it's theoretically permanent Forgery.  Lightweaving can theoretically extend to all kinds of particle accelerators and energy beam weapons and whatnot (not to mention actual quantum hoodoo if they understand enough to apply their wave manipulation) but only if they gain modern earth-equivalent scientific understanding.  By comparison Elsecallers would be much harder to pin down long enough to finally defeat, but as far as we know Elscalling cant offer anything like the sort of offensive capabilities of Lightweaving, while Truthwatchers get the Energy Beam potential but Progression is again pure defense.   

Between the rest of the Orders I think it would mostly come down to actual tactics and circumstances, they all have comparable strengths and weaknesses.  The Windrunners and Skybreakers in the air with the Dustbringers and Stonewards on the groun and would do most of the traditional fighting. The Edgedancers would be guerrilla's that might not win the day but would be hell to capture and defeat.  Willshapers are a wildcard, but I get the sense they are one of the craftier orders, and they Elsecall, so they might lead the pack on Fabrials and/or off-world tech.  

 

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

To the OP, I have to think that the Binders of Gods would be the most powerful and very likely to be the ones with the most capability for large-scale action if we are crediting one with the spiritual reformatting of an entire race (shenanigans notwithstanding).  If nothing else they are certainly bonded to the most powerful Spren, so just imagine an enemy that has the Highstorm itself on their side as well as all the unique Combatants that the Nightwatcher could theoretically create, and Im going to go ahead and propose that they'd get command of Urithiru via the Sibling.  

Power is not everything though.  Remember Marasi was almost certainly less powerful then Miles but that much up ended with him in chains.  Also only up to three bondsmiths at a time.  This means three lives max.  Also binder of gods refers to Ishar he held honor's power.  Yes the Stormfather has that power now but the other two do not.  Also I don't think that the bondsmith can make the storms come or go.  The storms have to do their own thing or all of Roshar suffers.

2 hours ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

Aside from those I think the Lightweavers have the most Power potential (which I suspect is why Hoid gets to be one).  Soulcasting is arguably one of the most potent Powers in the Cosmere (and I personally think it's THE most potent single ability), because it lets you fundamentally reformat a person or object, which with enough subtlety means you can freely manipulate the Spiritweb itself; the required skills and energy are wildly different but in practice it's theoretically permanent Forgery.  Lightweaving can theoretically extend to all kinds of particle accelerators and energy beam weapons and whatnot (not to mention actual quantum hoodoo if they understand enough to apply their wave manipulation) but only if they gain modern earth-equivalent scientific understanding.  By comparison Elsecallers would be much harder to pin down long enough to finally defeat, but as far as we know Elscalling cant offer anything like the sort of offensive capabilities of Lightweaving, while Truthwatchers get the Energy Beam potential but Progression is again pure defense.   

Agreed.

2 hours ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

Between the rest of the Orders I think it would mostly come down to actual tactics and circumstances, they all have comparable strengths and weaknesses.  The Windrunners and Skybreakers in the air with the Dustbringers and Stonewards on the groun and would do most of the traditional fighting. The Edgedancers would be guerrilla's that might not win the day but would be hell to capture and defeat.  Willshapers are a wildcard, but I get the sense they are one of the craftier orders, and they Elsecall, so they might lead the pack on Fabrials and/or off-world tech.  

Maybe.  I personally think Windrunners might be able to out fly Edgedancers except in urbane environments where agility is more of a thing.

[Quantus]

15 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Power is not everything though.  Remember Marasi was almost certainly less powerful then Miles but that much up ended with him in chains.  Also only up to three bondsmiths at a time.  This means three lives max. 

Their number are easily their biggest weakness, absolutely.  I personally think they are the most potent because they seem to have the potential for direct Connection and/or Spiritweb manipulation, if Melishi was any example with the apparent ability to (with the right circumstances) spiritually neuter an entire race.  Theirs would be a force that would likely lose in a pitched battle of whole Orders, they simply dont wield the same raw military Might. But I dont believe that a Civil War between Radiants would actually be fought on the battlefield; if the Bondsmiths found themselves there, they'd've already screwed up and lost the fight.  But I think they are the most capable of doing something Investiture-based that is massive and dramatic enough to win the war in one big gambit.  

Quote

Also binder of gods refers to Ishar he held honor's power. 

Ishar has never held the Honor Shard if that's what you mean.  "Binder of Gods" is his title as Herald and the Original Bondsmith, but he's supposed to have the same capabilities as his Order's Radiants.  I dont know if he can qualitatively do anything a normal Bondsmith cannot, but so far the Radiants have always had more capability than their Herald equivalent, not less.  They got the Surges from their Swords and a direct Power conduit to Honor (that was controlled/regulated by Honor himself, if Im not mistaken), but presumably still dont get things like Squires or Plate which no Herald got.  If he can do something unique it's always possible, but it would be the first such example and Id suspect such a thing to be related to the Oathpact stuff rather than Bondsmith powers.  Melishi is really the Bondsmith example Ive got in mind for that statement, though.  

Quote

Yes the Stormfather has that power now but the other two do not.  Also I don't think that the bondsmith can make the storms come or go.  The storms have to do their own thing or all of Roshar suffers.

Of course not, I never said the other godspren could control the Storm, that would be silly.  I said that all three Gadspren were wildly powerful in their own right, independent of their Radiant Bonds, which would make them major tactical resources all on their own.  The Stormfather cannot stop the storm or even move it wildly off course, and I assume he cannot actually deny Stormlight to anyone in particular (though that would end the Fight right there, making it Bondsmiths vs Lift, personally).  But we have seen him modify the specific timing of the Highstorm's arrival (once, specifically in response to the Everstorm), as well as manipulate the winds for Kaladin's benefit.  That tells me he does have the discretion to make the Storm more damaging to enemies, directing winds and lightning and maybe even debris toward one side and away from another the way the Everstorm does.  Im also assuming that whatever circumstances would have caused this hypothetical Civil War would motivate him to the Bondsmith's side and not try to remain neutral, fwiw.  

Meanwhile there is a lot of hints that the Sibling is the Key to Urithiru's real systems, and thus tactical advantage, whatever that may be (Oathgate hub if nothing else).  The Nightmother is the source of the Old Magic and as far as we know has near total discretion over the effects she grants, thus in such a hypothetical War she could basically be a purpose-specific Super-Soldier factory.  

Edited December 17, 2019 by Ookla the Ingeniator
Awful spelling...

[Karger]

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

Theirs would be a force that would likely loose in a pitched battle of whole Orders, they simply dont wield the same raw military Might. But I dont believe that a Civil War between Radiants would actually be fought on the battlefield; if the Bondsmiths found themselves there, they'd've already screwed up and lost the fight.  But I think they are the most capable of doing something Investiture-based that is massive and dramatic enough to win the war in one big gambit.  

Maybe but I think the first thing any order would do at the beginning of the war is track down and kill any bondsmiths.  In fact there might be a truce issued for it.

10 minutes ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

Ishar has never held the Honor Shard if that's what you mean.

Your's is the power Ishar once held(Stormfather to Dalinar chapter 64).

17 minutes ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

I dont know if he can qualitatively do anything a normal Bondsmith cannot

He is a Herald.  The Heralds have all kinds of crazy abilities.

18 minutes ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

the same capabilities as his Order's Radiants

Source? 

20 minutes ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

Of course not, I never said the other godspren could control the Storm, that would be silly.  I said that all three Gadspren were wildly powerful in their own right, independent of their Radiant Bonds, which would make them major tactical resources all on their own

Assuming you can get them to do much of anything.

20 minutes ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

That tells me he does have the discretion to make the Storm more damaging to enemies, directing winds and lightning and maybe even debris toward one side and away from another the way the Everstorm does.  Im also assuming that whatever circumstances would have caused this hypothetical Civil War would motivate him to the Bondsmith's side and not try to remain neutral, fwiw.  

He repeatedly says he would do what is in his nature.  I assume that the storms naturally want to clean Roshar.  That is part of their natural function  His attention was drawn toward the shattered plains by Dalinar.  He sees corpses their and he wants to wash them away so he does so.  Having him stratygically destroy cities would be considerably harder.  Also considering he automatically restores stormlight how can he do any damage? Everyone would just heal it off.

25 minutes ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

Meanwhile there is a lot of hints that the Sibling is the Key to Urithiru's real systems, and thus tactical advantage, whatever that may be (Oathgate hub if nothing else).

Yes but it would not be particularly difficult to sneak into the city and kill the bondsmith if you were a lightweaver for example.

26 minutes ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

The Nightmother is the source of the Old Magic and as far as we know has near total discretion over the effects she grants, thus in such a hypothetical War she could basically be a purpose-specific Super-Soldier factory

We don't know the internal mechanic their.  I am almost certain there is one(my personal theory is that if you stack up all the stupidity curses and all the intelligence blessings together you get the same result).

[Quantus]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Your's is the power Ishar once held(Stormfather to Dalinar chapter 64).

Right.  Because Dalinar is a Bondsmith and Ishar was the first Bondsmith, just hte way the Stormfather descibed the powers of a Windrunner as what Jezrien just was, before it had a name.  There is literally nothing anywhere to indicate that Ishar was ever a Vessel or a Sliver, sorry.  

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

He is a Herald.  The Heralds have all kinds of crazy abilities.

Aside from the whole death/Braize cycle, name literally one ability a Herald has that the corresponding Radiant does not.  

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

He repeatedly says he would do what is in his nature.  I assume that the storms naturally want to clean Roshar.  That is part of their natural function  His attention was drawn toward the shattered plains by Dalinar.  He sees corpses their and he wants to wash them away so he does so.  Having him stratygically destroy cities would be considerably harder.  Also considering he automatically restores stormlight how can he do any damage? Everyone would just heal it off.

Yes but it would not be particularly difficult to sneak into the city and kill the bondsmith if you were a lightweaver for example.

Dude, It's War.  "It's not difficult for an assassin to kill the enemy leaders in their own strongholds" is kinds missing all the nuance of a War effort, it's like saying "all I have to do to win the fight is punch him the face", best you can do it try but it will certainly not be that easy.  It's not like Assassination is a particularly new or original strategy, or one that all the Orders arent going to be taking steps against.    

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

We don't know the internal mechanic their.  I am almost certain there is one(my personal theory is that if you stack up all the stupidity curses and all the intelligence blessings together you get the same result).

Im not sure what you mean, there is only the one Stupidity&Intelligence example, and that one doesnt really apply because (I think i recall) it was recently confirmed that Cultivation granted that one directly.  

[Pathfinder]

On 12/16/2019 at 0:32 PM, Ookla the Prolific said:

Maybe.  However there is some implication in that WoR quote that the lightweavers could do it but where inferior to the elsecallers.

So found it, but its not a WoB. It is Jasnah speaking to Shallan in Oathbringer page 1179:

"Not too far" Jasnah warned "You can't bring your physical self into the realm, as I once assumed you could, but there are things here that can feast upon your mind."

[Karger]

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

You can't bring your physical self into the realm, as I once assumed you could, but

But Jasnah is clearly wrong.

[Steel Inquisitive]

27 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

But Jasnah is clearly wrong.

Jasnah is clearly wrong because there's a WoB that implies Lightweavers might be able to travel physically into the CR using their surges. Even if text didn't trump WoB that's a bold statement.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

But Jasnah is clearly wrong.

When Shallan used the oathgate, Sja-anat's sent her to the cognitive realm. When Kaladin and Co reached Thaylenah, they all asked Shallan to transfer them again. She could not. Dalinar opened a perpendicularity that they used to transfer. In both situations Shallan was not the one causing them to transition. An outside force did. She just used that force. Any transition was completely unconnected to her soulcasting that she gets from being a lightweaver. Where in Oathbringer, when using her own powers, did she completely physically transfer to the cognitive realm and back? Because I cannot recall a single time.