SzethIsBadAsHell he/him Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 So I was rereading Oathbringer for like the 5th and something just really started bugging me. Has anybody wondered why he started Conquering Roshar.? What if Sunmaker started receiving the visions from Stormfather? We know Gavilar also saw the visions and was on his way to becoming a Bondsmith. But despite Gavilar knowing way more than Dalinar did ( I give Gavilar being a Son of Honor) credit for most of this knowledge. Sunmaker didn’t have this luxury. So let’s say he started getting the visions. Started hearing the whole Unite them rhetoric. Saw a few vision of what was to come and figured , you know what I’m no diplomat, I’ll just Comquer everyone , then when the Desolation gets here , Everyone from Alethkar to the Aziz to the Reri will be under one rule and we can fight them. I also find his Death mysterious , from all reports he was in his prime. Somebody that Nale would probably kill with Division and people mistook it for disease. There are four Kholin family members ( counting Elhokar ) who we’re chosen by spren. So he has the right pedigree. I just don’t see thrill encouraging him to Conquer , There is something more. Sanderson has brought his name up and refered to many times . Sanderson always has a reason for his comments . I wouldn’t be surprised if he writes a short story and confirms that Sunmaker was on his way to becoming a Bondsmith and was killed for it . Probably by Nale or the ghostbloods! 3
Dancer Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 IIRC Nale's only been killing KR for the last 20 years on Ishars advice. It is possible that Nale killed Sunmaker for committing war crimes but not for being Radiant.
ScavellTane Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 Quote “Don’t get ahead of me please, bright one,” Kadash assured, turning back toward him. “When the priests of the Hierocracy were cast down, the Sunmaker made a point of interrogating them and going through their correspondences with one another. It was discovered that there had been no prophecies. No mystical promises from the Almighty. That had all been an excuse, fabricated by the priests to placate and control the people. The Hierocracy and the Sunmaker were of the same time. So there might have been some cross over there. One influencing the other.
Honorless he/him Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 (edited) As @Dancer said, Nale killing budding Radiants is a relatively new development. In fact, the resurgence of Radiants itself is a new development, which just goes to show that Ishar might be even crazier than the others if he is ordering such heinous acts at such a crucial time. The Stormfather shouldn't have had much reason to try and pick a new Bondsmith during the Sunmaker's time. Beyond that, a good theory but sometimes conquerors are just that, conquerors. Edited October 21, 2019 by Honorless
Aon Tia she/her Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 But I agree with OP, it just seems to coincidental that we have heirocracy and sadees the sunmaker both fighting trying to conquer all of Roshar and both claimed that they have a divine mandate from almighty to unite all humankind... It is possible that stormfather is compelled from time to time to send the visions out. We have no confirmation that stormfather only started doing it recently. 1
Honorless he/him Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, The traveller said: But I agree with OP, it just seems to coincidental that we have heirocracy and sadees the sunmaker both fighting trying to conquer all of Roshar and both claimed that they have a divine mandate from almighty to unite all humankind... It is possible that stormfather is compelled from time to time to send the visions out. We have no confirmation that stormfather only started doing it recently. Huh, while I did say the same thing, I only considered 'the glass half empty' side of the argument... Yup, after becoming Honor's shadow, he may have been compelled to search for a Radiant to bond to. We already know he wasn't among the Nahel Bond spren who foresaw the coming catastrophy and did not really seek out someone to bond. He only kept the word of the oath, not the intent behind it, as he admits. In fact, he was vehemently opposed to the idea (as seen at the end of WoR when he speeds up the Highstorm to collide with the Everstorm) Ooh! This raises since interesting questions about the spren that did see it coming... Edited October 21, 2019 by Honorless 4
Dancer Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 26 minutes ago, The traveller said: But I agree with OP, it just seems to coincidental that we have heirocracy and sadees the sunmaker both fighting trying to conquer all of Roshar and both claimed that they have a divine mandate from almighty to unite all humankind... It is possible that stormfather is compelled from time to time to send the visions out. We have no confirmation that stormfather only started doing it recently. I agree the timing for both of these things to occur is suspicious. Maybe some of the Heralds (namely Ishar) was involved in this. We know that he is going around in the present time trying to conquer the world and we know that he thinks he has the divine right by the Almighty (Honor) to do it.
+Oltux72 he/him Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 5 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said: So I was rereading Oathbringer for like the 5th and something just really started bugging me. Has anybody wondered why he started Conquering Roshar.? I always assumed that he was the aristocratic reaction to the Hierocracy. If they needed to be subordinate to somebody at all, better one of their own and a fighting man rather than a council of priests. And after conquering all the Vorin lands to get those troublesome priests, he had grown to like the idea of empire and conquest. So he kept going on. Plus conquest allows you to hand out lands to loyal followers. 5 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said: What if Sunmaker started receiving the visions from Stormfather? Possible, but without evidence. The claim itself can just as well, in fact even be better, explained as a weapon in a war of propaganda.
Aon Tia she/her Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 @Honorless so stormfather was giving the visions out of compulsion but had no intention of bonding: yes I was saying the same thing. @Dancer you think tezim is also having the visions? I doubt that seeing the high opinion stormfather has of him @Oltux72 yes it could be a propaganda that has just become popular. it is plausible either way. 1
Honorless he/him Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, The traveller said: @Honorless so stormfather was giving the visions out of compulsion but had no intention of bonding: yes I was saying the same thing. Yup, Stormfather wouldn't want a new Bondsmith but Honor would. This theory has some merit. Plus, Sanderson's writing style: very few things could be of little relevance when he is telling a story Edited October 21, 2019 by Honorless
Wandering Investor Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 I assumed that it was just general Alethi aggression, its kinda their thing. But Stormfather visions are not out of the question either.
Quantus he/him Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 At one point in OB Dalinar mentioned that the Sunmaker used a lot of excuses that largely amounted to a sense of cultural superiority. Dalinar wondered if anyone bought those excuses even at the time. That being said, those would have been the public reasons, so that doesnt preclude the Sunmaker having secret motivations involving visions or some other secret knowledge. I doubt it, personally, but it could be.
SzethIsBadAsHell he/him Posted October 21, 2019 Author Posted October 21, 2019 THe. Heirocracy. Strengthen in my mind he was seeing the visions , Either he and one of the Ardentia actually did see a vision. Or He knew the Ardents visions were false because he was seeing the real ones . I see the Hierocracy as a plot to undermine anybody who did see Stormfather related visions . People would think the person was crazy , just like how they thought Dalinar was crazy . The Heirocracy also erased all references to the Knights Radiants , their powers , and Urithiru from all the libraries in Roshar . This could be just religion . But this whole thing stinks like a ghostblood/skybreaker plot to erase Radiants from the minds of men , hoping this would stop a desolation. This would be a good question to ask for WoB . 1
Subvisual Haze Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 Certainly a significant portion of the blame for the Sunmaker's (and other Alethi's) bloodlust can be attributed to Neragoal the Unmade "gifting" the region with The Thrill. An artificial addictive rush in response to bloody combat would result in an impressively messed up society. It was a brilliantly cruel way to convert the protective martial traditions of Alethekar towards more pointlessly cruel ends. 2
bxcnch he/him Posted October 23, 2019 Posted October 23, 2019 (edited) Talking of the Unmade, I can imagine that Moelach might also be responsible for either Sadees' or the Ardents' prophecies. After all we are dealing with two opposed parties, both of which claim to be receiving visions and prophecies. Imagine: Honor/Stormfather is sending visions to Sadees. Sadees starts conquering Roshar because of the "Unite them" visions, but at the same time, Odium tells Moelach to go to Alethkar. Moelach is sending the Death Rattles and possibly other prophecies as well. The Ardents notice them and start writing their own prophecies based on the Death Rattles. Now, both, the ardents and Sadees, claim to be receiving visions from the Almighty and start distrusting the other. Thus, Odium has turned two potential allies in uniting Roshar against each other - slowing down Sadees and destabilizing the most powerful Honor-worshipping religion. So far Odium has always used individualised strategies to corrupt people. His approach in influencing Dalinar is different than his approach with Moash. I can imagine that a group of people bound by a shared moral code - like the ardentia - would be much more difficult to influence. Turning them against Sadees (or vice-versa) would permanently weaken the ardentia so that, when Taln finally breaks, the Vorin church is no problem anymore and all the power is concentrated on a few corruptible individuals. Of course that's all pure speculation... Edited October 24, 2019 by bxcnch 3
Aon Tia she/her Posted October 25, 2019 Posted October 25, 2019 @bxcnch i like your theory though.. It also explains why vorin church now, so vehementely, opposes futuresight.. 1
+Oltux72 he/him Posted October 25, 2019 Posted October 25, 2019 On 23/10/2019 at 2:45 PM, bxcnch said: Imagine: Honor/Stormfather is sending visions to Sadees. Sadees starts conquering Roshar because of the "Unite them" visions, but at the same time, Odium tells Moelach to go to Alethkar. Moelach is sending the Death Rattles and possibly other prophecies as well. The Ardents notice them and start writing their own prophecies based on the Death Rattles. The Sunmaker toppled the Hierocracy. So the Hierocracy must be older. The timing does not fit.
Aon Tia she/her Posted October 25, 2019 Posted October 25, 2019 12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: The Sunmaker toppled the Hierocracy. So the Hierocracy must be older. The timing does not fit. Odium may have sent Moelach first, and then stormfather may have been compelled to send visions to Sadees to counter Odiums plan... 1
Karger he/him Posted October 25, 2019 Posted October 25, 2019 (edited) Sadees committed repeated genocide. He died while still at war trying to conqueror the world. From what I can tell he succeeded in overthrowing the previous government and had a number of successful conquests. He thought himself invincible and decided to keep going. Thankfully he died while on campaign. Bringing in Stormfather visions sounds a bit too complex for my taste. Edited October 25, 2019 by Karger
Wind_Breaker she/her Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 Soo Sadees conquered the known world and overthrew its curret order, much like Dalinar does now (although Dalinar more like goes with the inevitable flow and does his best to steer it). They both have strong ideas and a high motivation. In Dalinar's case, it comes from these visions that make him insist even though he's called a heretic during the first books. Sunmaker could have had the same reason for claiming that the ardents were lying. And he could have either been keeping conquering because his dreams told him to "unite them", OR, actually, because he was driven by the thrill. The Thill also could have rosen or taken control of him in later years? Which would make the whole receiving the Stormfather's visions business kind of hereditary. Interesting theory, OP! I have been wondering what Sunmaker's drive was, as well, but so far I assumed it was his personality.
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