Moral Miscalculations of Mr. Sanderson in Oathbringer

[Pathfinder]

15 hours ago, Parallax said:

I did not expect this many responses to my original post, thanks everyone for engaging in the discussion. I don't think I will be able to respond to each post individually, so I will try to make a few general points:

1. Some of the problems here stems from the fact that we don't have any PoV characters from Rathalas which makes Dalinar's crimes a lot less "real" to the readers. If we had a PoV character who died at Rathalas or lost his family in the fire, I think a lot of readers would feel differently about Dalinar.

As I have responded to the thought experiment you posited below, I have a thought experiment for you. Have you read my post earlier in this thread? If we knew for a fact (not saying we do, as written, it is a thought experiment) that the screaming voices ending and Evi saying she forgives Dalinar is her and the people of Rathalas actually genuinely forgiving Dalinar, would that constitute as the PoV you are requesting? That the very people wronged are accepting Dalinar's request for forgiveness, and they are the ones giving him redemption?

15 hours ago, Parallax said:

2. Here is a thought experiment: imagine Dalinar returns from the attempt on his life near Rathalas, gets into an argument with Evi, beats her to death and then burns down Rathalas. Everything else stays the same. How would you feel about Dalinar's arc in the book?

Not to sound nitpicky, but the devil is in the details. How/Why did Dalinar beat Evi to death? Now I am never saying it is acceptable to beat your spouse. I am saying, was he still overwhelmed with the Thrill after the battle that, didn't see her, and struck out like when he killed some of his own soldiers in battle? Or are you saying he comes back from battle, and Evi argues with him about killing people, and he turns to her enraged by her disobedience and beats her to death? Because if it is the second, that does not fit with the character (to me) that we were presented with, regardless at what point we meet him. Even when he first married her and disliked her, he never laid a hand on her. Even when they argued there was never the slightest hint of him striking her. When younger Dalinar gloried in battle. In the contest. There is no battle in beating a helpless wife. There is no contest. So even at his worst, the Dalinar we know, I could not see voluntarily laying hands on Evi. Now if you are saying in this thought experiment, we are going to disregard the character, and arbitrarily state occurrences to find a line that people feel is too far, that is a different matter. But in your other post you stated:

"Line-drawing questions are difficult and in some cases any answer will be arbitrary (e.g. how many grains of sand do you need for a heap?). "

So if this thought experiment were to see how people would react to Dalinar if he beat his wife, despite that not being in character for Dalinar, then I do not see the point. 

15 hours ago, Parallax said:

3. Some of the posts bring up similarities to real-world events which I found interesting but the comparison has two problems: (a) I don't have to root for historical figures, but as readers of Stormlight Archive we are supposed to root for Dalinar; and (b) within the story Dalinar is forgiven then he can summon Honor's perpendicularity a short 11 years after burning down an entire city full of civilians. I don't know of that many real world equivalents to that. 

Well there are no real world equivalents for Radiants either lol. You do not have to root for Dalinar either. No one is twisting your arm making you do so. If your reading of the novel resulted in you feeling Dalinar did too much for you to forgive him, that is your right and prerogative. But I do not see the author, nor anyone here saying you have to root for him. Just like Kaladin takes actions. Some people like him, some people dislike her. That doesn't mean the author is forcing people to root for Kaladin. Same thing with Shallan, Jasnah, Renarin, Navani, and etc. It is a story. You are entitled to take from it, and feel however you wish from it. Like Hoid's may monologues. Art is what the audience experiences. 

[Aon Tia]

15 hours ago, Parallax said:

Here is a thought experiment: imagine Dalinar returns from the attempt on his life near Rathalas, gets into an argument with Evi, beats her to death and then burns down Rathalas. Everything else stays the same. How would you feel about Dalinar's arc in the book?

I am at a loss here in understanding the logic behind this thought experiment. It is not in line with Dalinars character. Where in the story did it give you the impression that he ever laid a hand on evi? He may not be in love with her, at times he may feel that she tests his patience but that does not mean that he ever hit her. It is a work of fiction yes, but there is fiction and then there is fiction. 

When a novel has such complex characters, not everyone is going to like every character. It is your wish and no one is forcing you to root for him. Shallan is a major character and many don’t like her. Many don’t like Venli who is going to be major character in SA4. 

But atleast chose to dislike dalinars for things he actually did. And not made up things he could have done if he were a completely different person. 

Besides, war crimes are as serious a crime as if someone beat his wife. So if Brandon can give a war monger like dalinar such a great redemption arc then he can do it in your scenario too. 

Dalinar beat his wife once? Your scenario..

it seems like you think he knew she was in there and chose to burn her because she disobeyed him!! He never meant her harm. In fact he was totally broken by what happened. “I never did deserve her” is his regret. 

Shallan has killed both her parents

teft has caused his whole community to be killed. 

[agrabes]

15 hours ago, Parallax said:

I did not expect this many responses to my original post, thanks everyone for engaging in the discussion. I don't think I will be able to respond to each post individually, so I will try to make a few general points:

1. Some of the problems here stems from the fact that we don't have any PoV characters from Rathalas which makes Dalinar's crimes a lot less "real" to the readers. If we had a PoV character who died at Rathalas or lost his family in the fire, I think a lot of readers would feel differently about Dalinar.

2. Here is a thought experiment: imagine Dalinar returns from the attempt on his life near Rathalas, gets into an argument with Evi, beats her to death and then burns down Rathalas. Everything else stays the same. How would you feel about Dalinar's arc in the book?

3. Some of the posts bring up similarities to real-world events which I found interesting but the comparison has two problems: (a) I don't have to root for historical figures, but as readers of Stormlight Archive we are supposed to root for Dalinar; and (b) within the story Dalinar is forgiven then he can summon Honor's perpendicularity a short 11 years after burning down an entire city full of civilians. I don't know of that many real world equivalents to that. 

4. Anyone who enjoys discussions about ethics and war should check out Errol Morris' The Fog of War. Here is the trailer:

 

It was a good post, made people think.

1) I do agree that if there was a POV character from Rathalas it would make the crimes feel more real.  Rathalas only exists in the books as a place for Dalinar to burn down.

2) I don't necessarily feel different about his overall character arc if Dalinar knowingly and intentionally kills Evi, but I do feel differently about how the in world characters should feel about him.  I think if he had actually done that, his arc would have to be different though.  The point of his arc was that his lust for battle had gotten out of control and that Rathalas was the point where the negative consequences got so extreme that he realized he had to radically change his life.  Killing his wife isn't really related to that.

3) You don't exactly "have" to root for historical figures in the same way that you don't "have" to root for Dalinar.  It's just that people hold up certain historical figures as great people - Julius Caesar,  Napoleon Bonaparte, many leaders on the side of the Allies in WW2, the list goes on.  But, you could argue that all of these people have committed crimes equal to or even greater than Dalinar's.  The point I'm making is (right or wrong) people are generally willing to forgive some types war crimes if there were extreme circumstances and they don't have a close relationship to the victims of those war crimes.  In terms of Honor's perpendicularity I think we should also remember that Honor does not really represent "Honor" in the way we think of Honor.  It actually represents the concept of following orders, following the law and other rules, doing what you  think is right, meeting societal expectations and things like that.  You can commit atrocities while still doing all of those things.  The Skybreakers show us that directly in world.  So in terms of Dalinar's actions aligning with the Honor shard's intent, they were probably not as far off from that as you might think.

[UnkalakiFirstSon]

I'm not sure if the timeline/plot works but it would be interesting if Lift lost her mother in Rathalas. She seems to sympathize with Nale's predicament.

If the plot allows for it, I would like Brandon to have at least one of the main characters not sympathize with Dalinar and maybe go as far as choosing to not follow him.

[aneonfoxtribute]

3 minutes ago, DuckAdolin said:

I'm not sure if the timeline/plot works but it would be interesting if Lift lost her mother in Rathalas. She seems to sympathize with Nale's predicament.

If the plot allows for it, I would like Brandon to have at least one of the main characters not sympathize with Dalinar and maybe go as far as choosing to not follow him.

tbh, I wouldn't be shocked if Kaladin learned about that and lost some respect for Dalinar. I don't think he would lose much to make him desert or stop listening to him, particularly after WoR, but his reaction to learning what happened at the Rift would most certainly be interesting. 

[Pathfinder]

30 minutes ago, DuckAdolin said:

I'm not sure if the timeline/plot works but it would be interesting if Lift lost her mother in Rathalas. She seems to sympathize with Nale's predicament.

If the plot allows for it, I would like Brandon to have at least one of the main characters not sympathize with Dalinar and maybe go as far as choosing to not follow him.

The entire plot of Way of Kings and Words of Radiance involved the high princes resisting following Dalinar. Many flat out refused and sided with Sadeas. Even Elhokar bumped heads with Dalinar and frequently did not follow/listen to him. Oathbringer involved foreign rulers resisting following Dalinar. Many flat out refused and sided with the enemy. So there are plenty of people at odds with Dalinar. 

[aneonfoxtribute]

19 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The entire plot of Way of Kings and Words of Radiance involved the high princes resisting following Dalinar. Many flat out refused and sided with Sadeas. Even Elhokar bumped heads with Dalinar and frequently did not follow/listen to him. Oathbringer involved foreign rulers resisting following Dalinar. Many flat out refused and sided with the enemy. So there are plenty of people at odds with Dalinar. 

Yeah, but they're not really main characters. The only "main characters" who oppose Dalinar are antagonists, like Sadeas and Amaram. None of our main heroes are at odds with Dalinar, other than Kaladin during a couple of chapters in WoR after he was arrested and was going to help assassinate Elhokar, but that was kind of a personal issue for Kaladin that sorted itself out rather than a real big thing

[Pathfinder]

18 minutes ago, aneonfoxtribute said:

Yeah, but they're not really main characters. The only "main characters" who oppose Dalinar are antagonists, like Sadeas and Amaram. None of our main heroes are at odds with Dalinar, other than Kaladin during a couple of chapters in WoR after he was arrested and was going to help assassinate Elhokar, but that was kind of a personal issue for Kaladin that sorted itself out rather than a real big thing

There is a WoB confirming that the whole inception of Way of Kings is about an Uncle having conflict with his King nephew who is ruling poorly. Elhokar isn't an antagonist, and constantly buts heads with Dalinar throughout Way of Kings and Words of Radiance. In Oathbringer, Lift, Gawx, and Fen are all not antagonists, and but heads with him repeatedly.  

[aneonfoxtribute]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

There is a WoB confirming that the whole inception of Way of Kings is about an Uncle having conflict with his King nephew who is ruling poorly. Elhokar isn't an antagonist, and constantly buts heads with Dalinar throughout Way of Kings and Words of Radiance. In Oathbringer, Lift, Gawx, and Fen are all not antagonists, and but heads with him repeatedly.  

Yeah, but I wouldn't call Elhokar, Gawx, or Fen main protagonists. Lift is one, but her conflicts with Dalinar are less serious and more based in "I'm a child who doesn't trust adults and you're an adult"

[Pathfinder]

7 minutes ago, aneonfoxtribute said:

Yeah, but I wouldn't call Elhokar, Gawx, or Fen main protagonists. Lift is one, but her conflicts with Dalinar are less serious and more based in "I'm a child who doesn't trust adults and you're an adult"

But what kind of conflict are you looking for? Wouldn't being antagonistic towards one of the protagonists label that character an antagonist?

[aneonfoxtribute]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

But what kind of conflict are you looking for? Wouldn't being antagonistic towards one of the protagonists label that character an antagonist?

Well, the original comment was about "a main protagonist not sympathizing with Dalinar and maybe not following him". Gawx, Fen, and Elhokar aren't main protagonists, and Lift is less her not sympathizing with her and more with her being a dumb kid distrusting him for no real reason.

[Pathfinder]

Just now, aneonfoxtribute said:

Well, the original comment was about "a main protagonist not sympathizing with Dalinar and maybe not following him". Gawx, Fen, and Elhokar aren't main protagonists, and Lift is less her not sympathizing with her and more with her being a dumb kid distrusting him for no real reason.

The original quote didn't say protagonist. Gawx, Fen, and most definitely Elhokar are main and important characters to the narrative of Oathbringer (also Way of Kings and Words of Radiance in Elhokar's case). I disagree with Lift. She is not a dumb kid, and has greater depth than you give her credit for. Considering what happened between her and Nale, I think she knows more regarding Dalinar than you give her credit. 

[Gilphon]

 

58 minutes ago, aneonfoxtribute said:

Lift is less her not sympathizing with her and more with her being a dumb kid distrusting him for no real reason.

You're seriously underestimating Lift- she initially doesn't trust Dalinar because she sees him as a man who's used to getting his way and murdered his way to the top. Which is basically true. She just phrases it as if it's about butts and old people because she doesn't like being taken seriously. 

And it's not like anything changes her mind about Dalinar, either- she just decides that Odium is a bigger problem than him. 

Edited September 30, 2019 by Gilphon

[Steel Inquisitive]

5 hours ago, aneonfoxtribute said:

Well, the original comment was about "a main protagonist not sympathizing with Dalinar and maybe not following him". Gawx, Fen, and Elhokar aren't main protagonists, and Lift is less her not sympathizing with her and more with her being a dumb kid distrusting him for no real reason.

I would like to see Kaladin take the lead over the Radiants. Not that I don't like Dalinar. Far from it. He's my favorite! I just think it would be cool if Kaladin and him "fall out" and Kaladin takes lead with Dalinar as an advisor. Which would fit with the Windrunner's leading aspect and the Bondsmith's guiding aspect.

Lift does have some depth to her. I agree she's very immature. I tend to skim her chapters in rereads. I feel like she gets too much credit at times, but I also love her. 

[Aon Tia]

4 hours ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

Lift does have some depth to her. I agree she's very immature. I tend to skim her chapters in rereads. I feel like she gets too much credit at times, but I also love her. 

I did not like lift when i first read edgedancer, but when i reread it, i realised that actually there is a lot of depth to her character.

She only comes across as immature if you pay too much attention to what she is saying and her insistence on stealing food etc. I think she does this because she wants to believe that her wish was granted and she has not changed. She was a street urchin and she still is a street urchin, hence the food stealing shenanigans. 

But focus instead on her actions and you will realise the depth of her character. for instance, in edgedancer, she pretended that she was not paying any attention to what the veziers were doing, but the truth is that she was listening, she heard from there spy reports that nale is in Yeddaw. She deliberately went after him. Because, she felt that everyone pay that white assassin so much attention because he has been killing kings, but this guy(Nale) has also been killing all over roshar and no one cares to stop him just because he is killing little people. It was then i realised that ok, wow, she is more than what seems on the surface. she is not here to eat all ten pancakes that is just what she tells Wyndle.

and there are many many such things that proves that she is actually awesome 

[aneonfoxtribute]

I think Lift is fine so far. She's fun, but she is definitely the main character I care the least about. When I first read her section in WoR, I really did not like her, partly due to the poor placement (it's literally right after Kaladin is arrested, and right before both an Eshonai and a Szeth chapter), so it kind of kills the pacing, the length of the chapter, which also helps kill the pacing, and the fact that it's following some random kid whose relevance we don't know until, like, haflway through the chapter, which made me not really care for her as a result. Even in Oathbringer, when I started liking her a lot more just due to actually knowing her and having her not feel like she's taking away from the other characters, she's still one of the main Radiants I have the least interest in. This will undoubtedly change, since Sanderson is a writing god, but that's just how I'm feeling at the moment. Maybe it is coloring my perception of her a tad. 

[wallyrocket]

On 9/30/2019 at 1:52 AM, Parallax said:

This is about the relationship between the author and the readers, not the internal rules of the Cosmere.

Early on in Oathbringer flashbacks we are left to wonder whether or not Dalinar has killed the 6-year old Tanalan, later we are relieved when we find out he didn't kill the boy. In Rathalas Dalinar literally murders hundreds of children and you don't think the readers will expect something beside drinking and self-loathing before they can root for the character? 

Yes, if you are coming from a reader's perspective, that changes things.  You provided your views on why you think that the differences in the magnitudes of the crimes (which they all are) determine, in your mind, that some should be redeemable and some not.

From my personal point of view, everyone is redeemable from their actions.  This makes it easier for me to be on Dalinar's side.  It may seem contrary, but I also believe that no one deserves redemption; that would not satisfy the demands of justice.  However, I believe that mercy can be extended to those bound by justice and they can be forgiven and receive redemption, not because they deserve it, but because someone with authority is willing to offer it.  

I have done some things in my life that I am deeply ashamed of.  I've tried to fix what I could and learned and moved on to be a better person.  I've also had some horrible things done to me that still affect me to this day.  I try no to let those people and their actions rule my life and I have tried to forgive them (still working on it).  This is all an internal action that I must do.  But if I have hope for the redemption that I need, I surely need to be willing to offer it to others as well.

A bit of rambling on my beliefs, but it is because of this that I don't find it hard to follow Dalinar's arc and call him one of the "good guys" in the end.  It wasn't for his drinking and feeling sorry for himself.  It wasn't becasue he went and forgot it all and started doing good things.  It was becasue he remembered it all, accepted what he had done as a vile action, and is trying to do better now.

I was inspired by the story of Eva Kor, a holocost survivor.

[Isilel]

12 hours ago, aneonfoxtribute said:

Yeah, but they're not really main characters. The only "main characters" who oppose Dalinar are antagonists, like Sadeas and Amaram.

 

IMHO, it is fairly likely that the Rathalas revelation will cause conflict with his sons - not sure if they are "main" enough for the purpose of this discussion. I also think that Dalinar will butt heads with Jasnah and Kaladin, though not necessarily about this.

It is important to realise that pretty much everybody already believed that Dalinar burned Rathalas on purpose. The whole "accidental fire" explanation was just a fig leaf that nobody took seriously. The additional wrinkle of Evi getting caught in the conflagration isn't going to significantly change most people's opinion of him.

 

6 hours ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

I would like to see Kaladin take the lead over the Radiants. Not that I don't like Dalinar. Far from it. He's my favorite! I just think it would be cool if Kaladin and him "fall out" and Kaladin takes lead with Dalinar as an advisor. Which would fit with the Windrunner's leading aspect and the Bondsmith's guiding aspect.

 

Nah, this wouldn't make sense. Windrunners can't lead the Radiants, too many Orders are at cross purposes to them. It takes the Bondsmiths to keep all the disparate Order philosophies from deadlocking the Radiants into uselessness and to get them pointed more or less in the same direction - as we saw during the all-Radiant discussion in OB, where Jasnah and Kaladin immediately locked horns. Not to mention that Kaladin himself is far too inexperienced, idealistic and prone to run off on missions to be a decent candidate for overall leadership. In fact, this last feature of his makes me wonder how good he'd be at leading the Windrunners, once their membership diversifies a bit. He was already neglecting a lot of necessary organizational work as a captain in WoR and OB, which Teft, Sigzil, etc. had to haphazardly make up for. I guess we'll see him learning to deal with all these new responsibilities and evolve beyond the "squad leader" mindset in the upcoming books.

[aneonfoxtribute]

1 minute ago, Isilel said:

 

IMHO, it is fairly likely that the Rathalas revelation will cause conflict with his sons - not sure if they are "main" enough for the purpose of this discussion. I also think that Dalinar will butt heads with Jasnah and Kaladin, though not necessarily about this.

It is important to realise that pretty much everybody already believed that Dalinar burned Rathalas on purpose. The whole "accidental fire" explanation was just a fig leaf that nobody took seriously. The additional wrinkle of Evi getting caught in the conflagration isn't going to significantly change most people's opinion of him.

 

Adolin is the only character at present that isn't a Radiant that I count as a main character. Renarin is one of the main Radiants, so I of course count him. Although if one counts Moash as a main character, we have that. 

[Quantus]

4 hours ago, aneonfoxtribute said:

Adolin is the only character at present that isn't a Radiant that I count as a main character. Renarin is one of the main Radiants, so I of course count him. Although if one counts Moash as a main character, we have that. 

Navani.

[Pathfinder]

11 hours ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

I would like to see Kaladin take the lead over the Radiants. Not that I don't like Dalinar. Far from it. He's my favorite! I just think it would be cool if Kaladin and him "fall out" and Kaladin takes lead with Dalinar as an advisor. Which would fit with the Windrunner's leading aspect and the Bondsmith's guiding aspect.

 

5 hours ago, Isilel said:

IMHO, it is fairly likely that the Rathalas revelation will cause conflict with his sons - not sure if they are "main" enough for the purpose of this discussion. I also think that Dalinar will butt heads with Jasnah and Kaladin, though not necessarily about this.

Nah, this wouldn't make sense. Windrunners can't lead the Radiants, too many Orders are at cross purposes to them. It takes the Bondsmiths to keep all the disparate Order philosophies from deadlocking the Radiants into uselessness and to get them pointed more or less in the same direction - as we saw during the all-Radiant discussion in OB, where Jasnah and Kaladin immediately locked horns. Not to mention that Kaladin himself is far too inexperienced, idealistic and prone to run off on missions to be a decent candidate for overall leadership. In fact, this last feature of his makes me wonder how good he'd be at leading the Windrunners, once their membership diversifies a bit. He was already neglecting a lot of necessary organizational work as a captain in WoR and OB, which Teft, Sigzil, etc. had to haphazardly make up for. I guess we'll see him learning to deal with all these new responsibilities and evolve beyond the "squad leader" mindset in the upcoming books.

@Steel Inquisitive and @Isilel Windrunners were classically used as scouts in prior desolations (WoB back this up). Now that doesn't mean that Kaladin could not find himself in a rulership role, but I do not think basing on him being a windrunner as a reason for him to be a ruler. 

 

5 hours ago, aneonfoxtribute said:

Adolin is the only character at present that isn't a Radiant that I count as a main character. Renarin is one of the main Radiants, so I of course count him. Although if one counts Moash as a main character, we have that. 

So if your criteria is it has to be:

 

1. a main character

2. a unique definition of what you define as a main character

3. cannot be a radiant at this time

 

Then why didn't you just say you wanted conflict between Dalinar and Adolin instead of saying a main character? Instead of all this criteria to eliminate everyone else except Adolin? And there is no way in Braize am I going to go down the rabbit hole of whether Adolin is or is not a main character. 

55 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Navani.

Excellent point

Edited October 1, 2019 by Pathfinder

[aneonfoxtribute]

On 10/1/2019 at 8:28 AM, Quantus said:

Navani.

She did admittedly slip my mind, thank you for reminding me. 

 

On 10/1/2019 at 9:22 AM, Pathfinder said:

So if your criteria is it has to be:

 

1. a main character

2. a unique definition of what you define as a main character

3. cannot be a radiant at this time

 

Then why didn't you just say you wanted conflict between Dalinar and Adolin instead of saying a main character? Instead of all this criteria to eliminate everyone else except Adolin? And there is no way in Braize am I going to go down the rabbit hole of whether Adolin is or is not a main character. 

 

Not what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying the character's I felt were main characters while I was reading. Only Navani and Adolin felt like main characters but weren't radiants. And you ignore, the whole "conflict with Dalinar" thing wasn't brought up by my comment. I've been talking this whole time under that original comment's wording. And is it really a rabbit hole when Adolin is the character with the most POVs that isn't one of the main Radiant's? Kaladin, Dalinar, and Shallan are, I almost guarantee you, the only individual characters with more chapters to them so far. 

[Pathfinder]

17 minutes ago, aneonfoxtribute said:

Not what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying the character's I felt were main characters while I was reading. Only Navani and Adolin felt like main characters but weren't radiants. And you ignore, the whole "conflict with Dalinar" thing wasn't brought up by my comment. I've been talking this whole time under that original comment's wording. And is it really a rabbit hole when Adolin is the character with the most POVs that isn't one of the main Radiant's? Kaladin, Dalinar, and Shallan are, I almost guarantee you, the only individual characters with more chapters to them so far. 

To me it is a rabbit hole considering the title of the thread is regarding the morality concerning Dalinar. Not the criteria of who is or is not a main character. Personally who I view as main characters have disagreed with Dalinar in line with the story. I felt it would be easier if you just named the individuals you would like to see head but with Dalinar. 

[Karger]

Regardless about how any individual feels about Oathbringer's revelations I don't think it will effect the working relationships Dalinar has.  Considering that the world is on fire and Dalinar is the only person in place to stop it only his current actions and his reasons for his current actions matter.  Not actions that happened over a decade ago.

[LopentheHerdazian]

There is also the fact that he is trying to redeem himself. Not to anyone else but to himself by saving the world.

If someone massacres thousands then saves billions are they then redeemed or are they vile and good at the same time.

I think that because Dalinar was able to change her becomes a good man who had committed heignous crimes.