Whose Cognitive Shadow is the Stormfather?

[bxcnch he/him]

So there's a Cognitive Shadow that is "inside" or "fused to" the Stormfather, and that Cognitive Shadow, according to Coppermind, belongs to the Almighty. So... is it Honor's CS? The Shard Honor's CS (if that is even possible)? Or just Tanavast's CS?

[Wandering Investor]

The cognitive shadow of Tanavast, the human(? we think anyways) that possessed the Shard of Honor, aka the Almighty. This fused with the pre-existing Stormfather to form the one we now meet.

[Karger he/him]

17 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

the human(? we think anyways

He was human.

 

17 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

fused with the pre-existing Stormfather to form the one we now meet

Basically.

[Wander89 he/him]

3 hours ago, bxcnch said:

So there's a Cognitive Shadow that is "inside" or "fused to" the Stormfather, and that Cognitive Shadow, according to Coppermind, belongs to the Almighty. So... is it Honor's CS? The Shard Honor's CS (if that is even possible)? Or just Tanavast's CS?

Yeah, he is Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow. He was 1 of 3 Bondsmith Spren until after Honor's death.

 

[MountainKing]

6 hours ago, Karger said:

He was human.

 

Basically.

Do we have evidence that he was human

[Karger he/him]

12 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

Do we have evidence that he was human

He appears to Dalinar in human form.  He was married to Cultivation who also appears in human form.  Hoid claims that he bought he bought drinks for Hoid one time(from what we see in Dragonsteal Prime the races don't mix much)

[Calderis he/him]

7 hours ago, Karger said:

He appears to Dalinar in human form.  He was married to Cultivation who also appears in human form.  Hoid claims that he bought he bought drinks for Hoid one time(from what we see in Dragonsteal Prime the races don't mix much)

Not sure how any of that is evidence. 

Sho Del are humanoid. Dragons can take human form. Odium appears both human and singer in the same scene to different viewers. And all of the Vessels were in some kind of conspiracy together. 

[bxcnch he/him]

But is the cognitive shadow that of Tanavast, the human(oid) being himself, or is it that of Tanavast, vessel of Honor? Like Ati was apparently different than Ati holding the shard of Ruin, at least in terms of personality. Does the CS still have the intent of Honour to some extent?

[John Flamesinger he/him]

Yes, we know that Tanavast was a Sentient Species capable of holding Investiture. This means that he would of had a CS. And we know he was a Sentient Species because a Shard almost Requires one (Though I might be wrong on that, see Preservation, as he wasn't completely Human, just enough to prevent the Shard from Diffusing), and Tanavast held the Shard of Honor.

Other than that, Wandering Investor answered the question.

[Hakedohn]

I always assumed that it the Storm father was the cognitive shadow of Tanavast ( post ascension to godhood).  He would not be the CS of the human but of the god. The storm father is the CS and memory of the shard known as Honor I believe. 

 

[Lightblood]

Storm father existed before Honor but was more heavily invested once he arrived. After Honor's death a the cognitive shadow of tanavast with the already existing spren.

Quote

The Stormfather is a spren. He has also merged with the Cognitive Shadow of the Almighty^[

- coppermind

and we know that the almighty and Honor is the same

[Hakedohn]

13 hours ago, Lightblood said:

Storm father existed before Honor but was more heavily invested once he arrived. After Honor's death a the cognitive shadow of tanavast with the already existing spren.

- coppermind

and we know that the almighty and Honor is the same

Wow, i need to study this more I guess. Looks like I was wrong

 

[Quantus he/him]

On 9/21/2019 at 11:38 AM, bxcnch said:

But is the cognitive shadow that of Tanavast, the human(oid) being himself, or is it that of Tanavast, vessel of Honor? Like Ati was apparently different than Ati holding the shard of Ruin, at least in terms of personality.

Ati was different after holding the Shard for a long time, but that's because it affected him over all that time.  It didnt create a separate being, it just changed him over time, as inevitably happens to people over time.  So the CS that bonded with the Stormfather is still Tanavast, just the older more experienced Tanavast that had been influenced by holding the universal embodiment of Honor.  

On 9/21/2019 at 11:38 AM, bxcnch said:

Does the CS still have the intent of Honour to some extent?

Almost certainly, for several reasons.  The CS in question is the CS from the end of Tanavast's life, which is the CS of the Sliver of Honor that Tanavast had become after thousands of years holding the Shard.  Separately, that CS didnt just persist on it's own, it merged with a pre-existing Sentience that was itself a living Chunk of Honor.  So the current Stormfather is the product of a Human/ShoDal/Dragon intelligence that had a lot of Honor influence in it merging with a sentient chunk of the Honor shard itself.  The result of that merger is going to logically have more of the Honor Shard in it than either 'ingredient' that went into it.  

[Weltall]

16 hours ago, Hakedohn said:

I always assumed that it the Storm father was the cognitive shadow of Tanavast ( post ascension to godhood).  He would not be the CS of the human but of the god.

That's not how it works. A Vessel does not leave a permanent impression on the Shard and it's possible for a Vessel to give up their Shard at which point they would go back to being whatever they were before their Ascension, albeit they'd be a Sliver so there would be some lasting changes. The Shard continues to exist after the death of the Vessel even if it's splintered, so there's no such thing as 'Honor's Cognitive Shadow' as a discrete entity. Once Tanavast was killed, he ceased to be the Vessel for Honor in the same way that the deaths of Leras and Ati left Preservation and Ruin available for Sazed to take. We even see Ati post-death before he goes Beyond and he's very clearly no longer Ruin.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Weltall

[Hakedohn]

I see my mistake :). Learning alot today! thanks for explaining it 

 

[bxcnch he/him]

I just thought of another question: When the Stormfather is talking of Syl as his daughter, is that the Spren-part talking or the Honor/Tanavast-Part? (Syl claims that she is a part of Honor, so I guess you could see Honor as her "father", in a way)

[RShara she/her]

12 minutes ago, bxcnch said:

I just thought of another question: When the Stormfather is talking of Syl as his daughter, is that the Spren-part talking or the Honor/Tanavast-Part? (Syl claims that she is a part of Honor, so I guess you could see Honor as her "father", in a way)

The Stormfather created Syl, so I would imagine it's the Stormfather side calling her Daughter. But the whole parentage thing is sorta fuzzy with spren and Shards anyway.

[GoWibble he/him]

On 9/23/2019 at 9:41 PM, Lightblood said:

Storm father existed before Honor but was more heavily invested once he arrived. After Honor's death a the cognitive shadow of tanavast with the already existing spren.

- coppermind

and we know that the almighty and Honor is the same

Remember that Adonalsium created Roshar before the Shattering, but there weren't spren before Honor.  

[RShara she/her]

41 minutes ago, GoWibble said:

Remember that Adonalsium created Roshar before the Shattering, but there weren't spren before Honor.  

There actually were spren before Honor.

Quote

Questioner

Spren. The phenomenon that creates spren. Is that Roshar-specific or is that a general effect?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, yes and no. So the question is, the effect that creates spren, is that Roshar-specific or is it general. The general fundamental rules that create spren are cosmere-wide. Spren are pieces of Investiture, usually pieces of Investiture that come straight from one of the Shards of Adonalsium, split off in some way, that because of human or other sapient creatures thinking about it or interacting with the power, the power starts to take on a life of its own. Develops personalities and comes alive, so to speak. And this can happen on any pla-- in any place where there is Investiture. So it could happen on any planet in the cosmere with significant amounts of free Investiture. The places you've seen this happen most commonly are on Sel and Scadri-- err Roshar. You haven't seen it on Scadrial, and you've seen little kind of hints at it on Nalthis, but not quite. And so-- But it's possible for it to happen anywhere. Seons and spren are basically the same thing with different powers-- powers kind of pushing them in different-- growth out of them-- That said, the non-sapient spren, so the spren that are not quite as-- They're not going to stand up and talk to you. Those all existed-- not all, but most of them existed on Roshar before the Shattering of Adonalsium.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)