Vorinism and homosexuality

[RShara]

4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Totally respect your opinion to think that way, but I hardly think that is applicable in determining whether or not a woman could in fact rule or hold land nor answer the question regarding vorinism and homosexuality. 

Now as an aside to respond to you, Sadeas and Ialai worked quite well together. Now personally I feel Jasnah has the intelligence and skill to check Ialai at every step and Ialai was fully disgraced at the end of Oathbringer so I do not see her being a threat going forward, but I do not believe that changes that she was a competent ruler. But I respect your opinion on the matter. To each their own. 

You put it better than I was going to

[Pathfinder]

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

I agree that they did great together but why does that make them good rulers?  Neither of them seem to care much for the people under them.  They are just extremely good strategists that is not the same thing.

I think what kind of person you consider a good ruler is very subjective, which is why I said to each their own. For the Alethi (to the best of my knowledge) a good ruler is someone who is intelligent, strong, and can outmaneuver your opponents. Which until Jasnah, Ialai was able to do. So to the Alethi, a good strategist would be a good ruler. The soldiers of the Sadeas princedom were extremely loyal to Sadeas and then Ialai. But I respect that you disagree. 

6 minutes ago, RShara said:

You put it better than I was going to

Lol, thank you. 

[Karger]

31 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I think what kind of person you consider a good ruler is very subjective, which is why I said to each their own. For the Alethi (to the best of my knowledge) a good ruler is someone who is intelligent, strong, and can outmaneuver your opponents. Which until Jasnah, Ialai was able to do. So to the Alethi, a good strategist would be a good ruler. The soldiers of the Sadeas princedom were extremely loyal to Sadeas and then Ialai. But I respect that you disagree. 

My point was that Ialia does not seem like the type who would ask for counsel before making a decision.  The only person we see her talk to in this way is dead so why go through the trouble of asking?

[Pathfinder]

29 minutes ago, Karger said:

My point was that Ialia does not seem like the type who would ask for counsel before making a decision.  The only person we see her talk to in this way is dead so why go through the trouble of asking?

I am confused. What does that have to do with you saying whether she is a good ruler or not?

Hmmm, this is a digression from the original thread. Maybe make a new thread titled on whether or not Ialai is a good ruler?

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Hmmm, this is a digression from the original thread. Maybe make a new thread titled on whether or not Ialai is a good ruler?

I was wondering if woman can hold property in Vorin lands and what the rules of inheritance are for them.  The only reason we are discussing Ialia is because she had to consult with others before deciding on her regent.  So did she have to consult or was this just a formality?

[Pathfinder]

23 minutes ago, Karger said:

I was wondering if woman can hold property in Vorin lands and what the rules of inheritance are for them.  The only reason we are discussing Ialia is because she had to consult with others before deciding on her regent.  So did she have to consult or was this just a formality?

Then what did that have to do with whether she was a good ruler or not? Consult means to ask for advice, not approval. 

[king of nowhere]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

Does Ialai strike you as a wise or carfull leader who wishes to accomplish anything? 

yes, the book presented her as quite competent, just like his former husband.

unfortunately, just like her former husband, she put personal ambition in front of the common good, and she choose the worst possible moment to do it.

and yes, it does not add much to the discussion.

now, if we want to talk about women's right to rule in vorin society, a much better example is the former queen. while she formally was merely a regent, she was the absolute autority in alethkar minus the shattered plains for five years, so she was ruler de facto. which brings me to believe that while there is some kind of ban on women ruling, as long as it's not official it can be done anyway.

[Karger]

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Then what did that have to do with whether she was a good ruler or not? Consult means to ask for advice, not approval. 

Weather she is good or not is not the question.  I was wondering about her motivations and legal status.

[Pathfinder]

 

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

Weather she is good or not is not the question.  I was wondering about her motivations and legal status.

If its not a question.....then why did you ask it? That is why I am getting confused. 

[Karger]

Just now, Pathfinder said:

If its not a question.....then why did you ask it? That is why I am getting confused. 

It was an aside that I thought might help with the actual question.

[Pathfinder]

8 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

yes, the book presented her as quite competent, just like his former husband.

unfortunately, just like her former husband, she put personal ambition in front of the common good, and she choose the worst possible moment to do it.

and yes, it does not add much to the discussion.

now, if we want to talk about women's right to rule in vorin society, a much better example is the former queen. while she formally was merely a regent, she was the absolute autority in alethkar minus the shattered plains for five years, so she was ruler de facto. which brings me to believe that while there is some kind of ban on women ruling, as long as it's not official it can be done anyway.

Thing is Elhokar was still alive at the time. So we are not exactly sure how Aesudan would have been considered if he was dead. 

[Pathfinder]

Just now, Karger said:

It was an aside that I thought might help with the actual question.

Ok, then could you explain how it would help with the actual question? I am not trying to criticize you. Just trying to understand. 

[Karger]

I was wondering if women in Vorin lands can inherit or not.  I was going to springboard this into weather two married woman could adopt children who could then own lands or large properties and if this was true I was going to ask why their are no highladies presiding over lands not ruled by male relations.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

Just now, Karger said:

I was wondering if women in Vorin lands can inherit or not.

Ok, well it seems based on Laral, Ialai, and Jasnah that women can. 

[Karger]

Just now, Pathfinder said:

Laral

Got a dowry from Sadeas in and married to remain highlady of her lands

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

Ialai and Jasnah

Consulted with male advisors before picking gaining their positions.

[Pathfinder]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Got a dowry from Sadeas in and married to remain highlady of her lands

Consulted with male advisors before picking gaining their positions.

Calderis already explained the situation with Laral on the prior page

I already responded that the literal definition of consult is to ask advice. The literal definition of advisers is a person to provide advice in a given field. The literal definition of advice is to recommend. Ialai was not requesting approval. She was wisely conferring with her advisers who are subordinate to her regarding her plans, just like any other ruler would. Male or female. 

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I already responded that the literal definition of consult is to ask advice.

She could have deliberately said advice to strengthen her position as a leader.

[RShara]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

She could have deliberately said advice to strengthen her position as a leader.

I feel like this is another instance of trying to find an event that fits a conclusion, rather than a conclusion that fits the events, again.

[Karger]

Just now, RShara said:

I feel like this is another instance of trying to find an event that fits a conclusion, rather than a conclusion that fits the events, again.

Possibly but Ialia is the type who would usurp legal authority in order to further political goals.

[Pathfinder]

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

Possibly but Ialia is the type who would usurp legal authority in order to further political goals.

Even if that was true (which I do not believe is the case). Laral and Jasnah dispute that. 

Even if you could provide evidence to (in your opinion) dispute what Calderis said about Laral. Jasnah disputes that.

Jasnah was clear and unequivocally shown to be the ruler of Alethkar in truth. So not sure where we can go from here. 

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

Even if that was true (which I do not believe is the case). Laral and Jasnah dispute that. 

Even if you could provide evidence to (in your opinion) dispute what Calderis said about Laral. Jasnah disputes that.

Jasnah was clear and unequivocally shown to be the ruler of Alethkar in truth. So not sure where we can go from here. 

You are most likely correct.

[earthexile]

I think it's really interesting that Iriali secular society would have a problem with homosexuality, despite the local religion approving of it. Usually in a given culture, sexual mores are at least related to religion and/or philosophy, if not explicitly outlined by it. It's very interesting to imagine a culture where the religious people are hippies and the atheists are conservatives.

[pizzastrology]

As a gay person, I thought a lot about how I'd live in Alethkar while reading SA. Kaladin's reaction to Drehy surprised me by being so familiar to my reality. His reaction was really not so bad, but it's so prevalent in our world as to be omnipresent. I think it's less prevalent in Alethi society, maybe much less, and almost certainly much less dangerous for me. I'd probably like it there; I'd love to hang out with Bridge 4, which is not something I've said about maybe any military outfit or sport team or similar in our world.

[edit to add: I'm sure I'd still need to exercise caution; I wouldn't stop reading every room before I spend time amongst its people. Warlike is warlike, and Kaladin's a hero; worse is out there, I just don't expect much of it or for it to be as normalized in Alethi society as it is in ours.] 

As has been mentioned, the weight of Vorin social mores about this sort of thing tend toward bonds and honor. Those are genderless, transcendent notions, and as someone who finds bonds and honor outside of the context of official state or religious marriage, I think I could live the exact life I'd want if I were to have been born a gay Alethi. (this paragraph pulls from ideas in the second post's WoB). 

 

Thanks for that, Brandon. Really. Not that you'll see it, I guess, but. Thanks. 

Edited April 11, 2019 by pizzastrology

[Honorless]

I think my feelings on this were already expressed quite well in the topic "Liberal Alethi" by @Shaukan-son-Hasweth but since that topic has been inactive for a year now, I'll put my thoughts here.

I think there might be an in-world explanation for what looks like a strange role reversal. Honor was active on Roshar, he interacted with the Radiants who later based themselves in Alethkar. If he was open-minded and taught the Knights to be the same, it all makes sense. This acceptance in the face of rigidity elsewhere might be a holdover from the times of the Silver Kingdoms, much like the Alethi's more martial inclinations.

[+Oltux72]

On 11/04/2019 at 10:56 PM, pizzastrology said:

As has been mentioned, the weight of Vorin social mores about this sort of thing tend toward bonds and honor. Those are genderless, transcendent notions, and as someone who finds bonds and honor outside of the context of official state or religious marriage, I think I could live the exact life I'd want if I were to have been born a gay Alethi. (this paragraph pulls from ideas in the second post's WoB).

Genderless? I would say that is exactly what the Alethi are not. You are correct about the core values, but you left out duty, which they see as gendered.

It seems to me that they just care little about sex in general. They also have no issue with sex outside marriage (as opposd to adultery) or prostitution. But if you wanted to be a transsexual or crossdresser, I don't see them being OK with that. Sex is just a recreational activity.