StormblessedSurvivor Posted January 24, 2019 Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 During WoR, Rock (Lunamor) is talking about Hoid, and says Quote "Lunu'anaki cannot hurt man. Is forbidden by other gods." Do we know specifically why Hoid cannot hurt anybody? Could it be that somehow, other Shards forced this onto him, the inability to harm others? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted January 24, 2019 Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 We don't have any information on this other than that it's involuntary, so your guess is as good as anyone else's. Brandon wields the RAFOs freely when it comes to Hoid 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted January 24, 2019 Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 Sooo, I have a almost entirely unsupported theory that extends of a similarly unsupported theory of Fortune in general, and how Hoid is able to Show Up where and when he needs to be, without being aware of the Why of it. Take from it what you will: My current wild and unsupported guess on Fortune is based almost entirely on two Hoid datapoints: Hoid uses Fortune to apparently pop up at Comsere-significant moments without actually being consciously aware of Why; Hoid cannot cause Physical Harm to himself or others, and per WoB even considering the idea would cause an incapacitating physical nausea response. Fortune Theory: I think Fortune in the Realmic Sense is a person's (or planet or Shard, etc) Alignment to their own Perfect Platonic Ideal that exists in the Spiritual Realm. Somewhere out in space and time there is a winding series of moments, movements, and choices that will take you closer toward that Perfect Self (which is itself paradoxically based on your own self-image, but whatever). Good Luck is a step closer to that Perfection, Bad Luck is a step away. Hoid Theory: Hoid is a being that has somehow managed to pull the ol' Ender's Game trick, and reorient himself so that his Spiritual Perfection is Down; he now exists in a perpetual state of Falling toward his Goal and own personal Idealized State of the Cosmere. He cannot Cause harm to himself or others because Physical Harm is itself an act that pushes the target (self or others) further away from their own Perfect Self. Think of it as Hoid having Lashed Fate in a new direction, rather than Gravity. Per WOB we know that Atium is an example of a Fortune Effect, so I think this works more as an Awareness of the Golden Path rather than a Force pushing the subject in that direction. Atium flaring gives you a vision of the Ultimate Outcome/Culmination of your actions, which always bothered me a little bit because of my own default Branching Multiverse image of Precognition (not cosmere specific or anything), because why is it necessarily /that/ future? Shouldnt other, later Choices be able to change things? Hell, as powerful as it is Atium cannot predict the future of an Aluminum object, which temporally speaking is a pretty big blind spot. But if that future is a more self-determined thing just like your Perfect Self in the Spiritual Realm, or even literally dictated by your Perfect Self in the spiritual realm, then the Flare vision is just a much deeper glimpse of the Path (as in philosophical Life-path) that you are currently on. And that would fit with the general idea that Fortune Ferrings are increasing or decreasing a more vague Intuition-esk awareness of this Path. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gasper Posted January 24, 2019 Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 I think it has to do with the massive amount of power Hoid has access to. We know he was at the shattering and he has more abilities than the set we have currently seen. Which probably means he could wipe the floor with any of characters, short of a shard or Nightblood, that we have seen so far. Hoid has set some sort of limit that he cannot break to prevent him from killing people like Kelsier. That limit is why Hoid cannot hurt people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanatos Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 I think its because the vessels knew his skill set and was very weary of him before the shattering. Remember his way older than the vessels so they would know his ways. His the 2nd oldest in the Cosmere. He seemed to agree but that seemed forced. He was offered one of the unknown Shards. (A test??) When he rejected the choice to become divine, the 16 'gods' placed restrictions on him to further prevent their plans. Aka. Physical harm. Aka. The vessels. Mic drop... Thanatos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenBossanova Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 My head canon is that it is the result of picking up a previous magic system, though @Quantus take on it is illuminating. My prediction is this, when Hoid gets Voidbinding/bonds a voidspren/gets Odium's magic system, that this restriction will be lifted. In Quantus's terms, his idealized self will include the ability to do harm (ie Odium's shardic intent). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace21 Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 (edited) I think it is a pre-shattering phenomenon, probably related to his immortality and other pre-shattering powers. I also believe that Shards are unable to break promises and it is possible that Hoid is restricted in the same way and promised not to harm others a long time ago. Edited January 25, 2019 by Jace21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenBossanova Posted January 25, 2019 Report Share Posted January 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Jace21 said: I think it is a pre-shattering phenomenon, probably related to his immortality and other pre-shattering powers. I also believe that Shards are unable to break promises and it is possible that Hoid is restricted in the same way and promised not to harm others a long time ago. I don't think that can be the whole story, because Hoid told Dalinar he was willing to see Roshar burn, if he needed to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace21 Posted January 26, 2019 Report Share Posted January 26, 2019 5 hours ago, ZenBossanova said: I don't think that can be the whole story, because Hoid told Dalinar he was willing to see Roshar burn, if he needed to. And? Willing to see it burn and "I will burn it down" are very different things. If we include the possibility for metaphor then it means even less. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Invocation Posted January 26, 2019 Report Share Posted January 26, 2019 5 hours ago, ZenBossanova said: I don't think that can be the whole story, because Hoid told Dalinar he was willing to see Roshar burn, if he needed to. He more said he'd step aside to let it happen, not that he'd spread the oil and drop the match. He doesn't like Rayse very much, but if that's what needs to happen, he'll let it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thanatos Posted January 26, 2019 Report Share Posted January 26, 2019 (edited) ZenBossanova, I think he means... within context of what we know about Hoid is; 1. He would allow Roahar and co to burn to kill Rayce. Or 2. He would allow Roahar and co to burn to reach unknown goals. Cause we don't know what he wants. Either of the two does he does not directly causes harm. Like Batman Begins. He didn't kill Ra's al Ghul, he just didn't save him. Edited January 26, 2019 by Thanatos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scion of the Mists Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 On 1/25/2019 at 4:59 PM, Jace21 said: I also believe that Shards are unable to break promises and it is possible that Hoid is restricted in the same way and promised not to harm others a long time ago. Hoid was not part of the Shardic agreement. From the Traveler: Quote Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] “I did NOT interfere,” the elderly man said. ”You meddle in things we promised to leave alone. Things that we—” Traveler held up a finger, interrupting him, then slowly he pointed at the older man. ”I. Made. No. Promise.” Footnote: Intro to the reading.JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace21 Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 1 hour ago, Scion of the Mists said: Hoid was not part of the Shardic agreement. From the Traveler: I know, but that's not what I said. I said that whatever binds the Shards to their word could also bind Hoid. The Shards promised not to interfere with one another. Hoid didn't so can do as he wishes. My proposal was that Hoid had previously made a seperate promise, not to harm anyone, that is independent of the Shard Agreement but enforced by the same rules. If anything the excerpt from "The Traveler" suggests that if Hoid had made that promise, he would be bound by it. He just didn't make it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scion of the Mists Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 27 minutes ago, Jace21 said: I know, but that's not what I said. I said that whatever binds the Shards to their word could also bind Hoid. The Shards promised not to interfere with one another. Hoid didn't so can do as he wishes. My proposal was that Hoid had previously made a seperate promise, not to harm anyone, that is independent of the Shard Agreement but enforced by the same rules. If anything the excerpt from "The Traveler" suggests that if Hoid had made that promise, he would be bound by it. He just didn't make it. That's what happens when you don't read posts carefully, I guess. I like your idea, although I prefer the theory that it's related to one of his abilities (immortality, Fortune, magic systems, etc.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulthwithian Posted January 29, 2019 Report Share Posted January 29, 2019 I think that the Shards were concerned with Hoid 'pulling an Odium' on them. Thus, they messed with Hoid to ensure that he couldn't. It's the only explanation that makes complete sense of Lunamor's (Rock's) statement. This assumes, of course, that what Lunamor said was true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightblade Posted February 1, 2019 Report Share Posted February 1, 2019 (edited) Didn't Hoid beat the crap out of kelsier??? Seems to me he can hurt people. Edited February 1, 2019 by Nightblade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Invocation Posted February 1, 2019 Report Share Posted February 1, 2019 2 minutes ago, Nightblade said: Didn't Hoid beat the crap out of kelsier??? Seems to me he can hurt people. Funny thing about there: there was no hurt. Cognitive Shadows don't actually feel pain, they just think they will so their mind twinges, thus it didn't actually cause any harm, circumventing the rules he has. Hoid is a lawyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightblade Posted February 1, 2019 Report Share Posted February 1, 2019 7 minutes ago, Invocation said: Funny thing about there: there was no hurt. Cognitive Shadows don't actually feel pain, they just think they will so their mind twinges, thus it didn't actually cause any harm, circumventing the rules he has. Hoid is a lawyer. Haha didn't think of it that way but it makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lidolas Posted February 1, 2019 Report Share Posted February 1, 2019 38 minutes ago, Invocation said: Funny thing about there: there was no hurt. Cognitive Shadows don't actually feel pain, they just think they will so their mind twinges, thus it didn't actually cause any harm, circumventing the rules he has. Hoid is a lawyer. If I remember right, Hoid was initially surprised that he 'hurt' Kelsier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Invocation Posted February 1, 2019 Report Share Posted February 1, 2019 5 hours ago, Lidolas said: If I remember right, Hoid was initially surprised that he 'hurt' Kelsier. Yes, he did not expect to be able to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storming lighteyes Posted February 3, 2019 Report Share Posted February 3, 2019 I definitely don’t have all the information, but could Hoid somehow be fully of Preservation and not at all of Ruin, and that’s why he is incapable of harm, like how Preservation couldn’t fight Ruin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Invocation Posted February 3, 2019 Report Share Posted February 3, 2019 1 hour ago, storming lighteyes said: I definitely don’t have all the information, but could Hoid somehow be fully of Preservation and not at all of Ruin, and that’s why he is incapable of harm, like how Preservation couldn’t fight Ruin? I don't think that's the case, since Hoid is older, even, than the Vessels of the Shards themselves, and he was old enough to have begun aging oddly by the time the Shattering happened in the first place. I mean maybe he got arbitrarily assigned to Preservation's Investiture somehow, but then Harmony would be aware of him, and Harmony is confused by him and how he can hide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace21 Posted February 3, 2019 Report Share Posted February 3, 2019 Yeah, Hoids immortality and general weirdness predate the shattering. I have a tendancy to attribute anything inexlicable about Hoid to pre-shattering shenanigans, but we won't find out more until Brandon rewrites Dragonsteel since the original is going to be heavily reworked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightblood Posted February 7, 2019 Report Share Posted February 7, 2019 On 2/2/2019 at 7:54 PM, storming lighteyes said: I definitely don’t have all the information, but could Hoid somehow be fully of Preservation and not at all of Ruin, and that’s why he is incapable of harm, like how Preservation couldn’t fight Ruin? No he isn't of Preservation. He was alive before The power of Preservation even existed. His inability to hurt people comes from something earlier in his history. "Hoid cannot easily kill people "because of certain things in his past." [Coppermind: Hoid] Rock blames this on the other Gods which could be true, maybe one shard took away his mental capacity to hurt people directly, but then again Rock thinks that Hoid is the god of Travel and Mischeif (which he kind of is.... maybe we should look into this more....) But- "Hoid has no issues with mentally hurting someone or through inaction."[Coppermind: Hoid] but also he knew that he couldn't actually hurt Kelsier, saying "I don't have the inclination to actually damage you". He is in fact so bad at hurting people that he can't even pull out his own tooth, making a thaylen in Kholinar do it for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scion of the Mists Posted February 7, 2019 Report Share Posted February 7, 2019 40 minutes ago, Lightblood said: No he isn't of Preservation. He was alive before The power of Preservation even existed. The power of Preservation existed prior to the Shattering of Adonalsium. Just because the Shard Preservation didn't exist doesn't mean that the Investiture didn't exist. All Investiture got assigned at the Shattering to the Shards, but it's not new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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