If Maya revives, will she be the same?

[ND103]

7 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

 

Brandon has stated pretty explicitly that a dead spren has not been revived before, and while he's occasionally been misleading on purpose he doesn't tend to outright lie.

 

TBF, even if it hasn't happened before, doesn't mean it can't happen like that going forward...

 

While Glys may not have happened that way, nothing stopping it from happening that way for Maya that I know of. 

 

As I said, it's unlikely. but if it did happen that'd be kinda interesting too.

6 hours ago, Dalakaar said:

I don't see why every PoV character has to be a KR. And to turn that around I'd say more people want that happening than don't. We can make a poll if you want for some completely unnecessary and irrelevant confirmation.  

I don't mind Maya coming backing, but I don't feel the need to see Adolin become a KR. In fact I see the need for a certain amount of PoVs to not be KRs to keep things in perspective. Adolin works well in that capacity, and was written in for his unique perspective on things already.

I already have an unsettling feeling of power-creep becoming a problem from the OB conclusion.

I kinda see where you're coming from, but I still think Adolin will end up reviving and potentially bonding Maya. Mostly because reviving the dead eyes is something that I feel WILL happen at some point. It's like with the wheel of time, one of the things that had to happen in those books was the cleansing of Saidin. It would be weird if it didn't happen in book at some point. And Adolin is closest to making it happen on screen. 

 

I also don't think we're likely to see too many badass normals here just because of how the system works. Spren bonds happen with people who sort of are badass to begin with and spren seem to cluster around other Knights. With that in mind, badass normals are relatively harder to come about on Roshar I would imagine especially when the number of radiants is so low and therefore there are presumably a large number of unbonded spren. 

Obviously could be wrong about that. Maybe Mr T's best friend ends up being a badass normal scholar and befriends an equally badass normal warrior who end up saving the day by sheer badassery. Who knows!

[insert_anagram_here]

2 minutes ago, ND103 said:

Obviously could be wrong about that. Maybe Mr T's best friend ends up being a badass normal scholar and befriends an equally badass normal warrior who end up saving the day by sheer badassery. Who knows!

Actually...
 

Quote

R'Shara [PENDING REVIEW]

A long time ago, where you said that Pailiah was the elderly ardent in Kharbranth that Shallan saw, is that right?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes? If you say I said that, then I did.

Questioner 2 [PENDING REVIEW]

Does that mean it is still true?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Let's just say there is a Herald in close proximity to Taravangian.

R'Shara [PENDING REVIEW]

It was in a signed book but we never got a picture of it.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

There is a Herald in close proximity to Taravangian. I'm not being sneaky about that.

R'Shara [PENDING REVIEW]

Is there more than one?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

There have been in the past, but there is only one that you would call influencing him right now. But there have been others in the past.

source

 

[StrikerEZ he/him]

9 hours ago, Dalakaar said:

I don't see why every PoV character has to be a KR. And to turn that around I'd say more people want that happening than don't. We can make a poll if you want for some completely unnecessary and irrelevant confirmation.  

I don’t think that every PoV character needs to be a KR. But I don’t see the problem with Adolin becoming one. In the grand scheme of things, he’s just one drop in the bucket of PoV characters.

9 hours ago, Dalakaar said:

I don't mind Maya coming backing, but I don't feel the need to see Adolin become a KR. In fact I see the need for a certain amount of PoVs to not be KRs to keep things in perspective. Adolin works well in that capacity, and was written in for his unique perspective on things already.

You see, like I said above, I think things would work better if Adolin did revive and bond Maya. Though I totally understand feeling like there needs to be a certain amount of PoV characters that are not KRs. However, I completely disagree. 

9 hours ago, Dalakaar said:

I already have an unsettling feeling of power-creep becoming a problem from the OB conclusion.

Yeah, I can definitely see that possibly being a problem. However, Thaylen City was just a one-time thing, what with the whole Unity moment, and there will be power creep with or without Adolin becoming a KR.

[+robardin he/him]

I voted #1, that I wanted Adolin to bond a revived Mayalaran spren, but that's not 100% the same as wanting him to be a full Knight Radiant/Edgedancer. I think it'd be more interesting if reviving and bonding the Spren of a Broken Oath had some other implications, that he wouldn't become a "full" or "normal" Radiant, but something else.

That way, like the not-dead Renarin, or the "pruned Dalinar", he'd be a hugely impactful "something else"  that neither the Diagram nor the "consensus forecast" Odium Futurevision predicted. (Or us readers!)

My personal prediction, if it goes that route: no Surgebinding, but he gains use of Stormlight (there are hints he healed, though not fully, to be able to walk so soon after a wall fell on him and seemingly shattered his legs, before Renarin healed him soon afterwards), "spren alerts" like when Maya managed to give him warning about the thunderclast, and low latency (<10s) but non-instant Shardblade summoning. Use of Maya as an Oathgate key. And who knows... Maybe even the ability to "advance" to gaining Shardplate, as he's kind of giotten a sidestep into the "Third Ideal" level with a partially bonded living Shardblade.

However, I'd find an Edgedancer Adolin and a storyline of "so dead spren CAN be revived!" satisfactory, also - just a tad predictable. I'd prefer it over a storyline of "well what we see at the end of Oathbringer is as revived as Maya ever gets, she's just a talking sword to a never-Radiant Adolin", which has only the benefit of not being the predictable storyline, while having all the drawbacks of being extremely uninteresting (while leaving room for Sanderson to MAKE it interesting, of course).

Edited January 14, 2019 by robardin

[CrazyRioter she/her]

Nothing wrong with being a tad predictable sometimes. Not everything has to be a massive plot twist and doing things just for the sake of subverting reader expectations can lead to a bad story. Brandon's talked in the past somewhere about resisting the temptations to add twists just for the heck of it.

(Pst I think you posted that in the wrong topic by accident)

Getting back on topic, I expect Adolin and Maya to have a unique Radiant-spren relationship even if the technical aspects of their bond are essentially normal and I'm interested to see it develop.

Edited January 14, 2019 by CrazyRioter

[+robardin he/him]

2 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

Nothing wrong with being a tad predictable sometimes. Not everything has to be a massive plot twist and doing things just for the sake of subverting reader expectations can lead to a bad story. Brandon's talked in the past somewhere about resisting the temptations to add twists just for the heck of it.

True, and my sketching out of what a "Partial Radiant" effect might be like is, in some sense, also "obvious".

[Pathfinder]

Personally I do feel Adolin is reviving Maya bit by bit, and will end up an edgedancer, but I do not think a typical bond will bring her fully back. I am still on that WoB that describes breaking a radant bond to ripping out a data jack from the spren's skull, leaving a gaping hole. I think something extra needs to be done (bondsmith help, or what have you), to help heal the damage, for a new bond to be made. 

[CrazyRioter she/her]

Eh I'm not sure there's anything"missing" from the spren itself, they are just really messed up from losing the bond in that manner. I think a new bond is enough. The difficultly is initiating the bonding process with a mostly-unreactive spren. It requires a lot of work from the human partner, and possibly the unusual circumstances of meeting the spren in the CR (which as far as we know has never happened before).

Besides I kinda feel like there's been enough bondsmith ex machina.

[Pathfinder]

39 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

Eh I'm not sure there's anything"missing" from the spren itself, they are just really messed up from losing the bond in that manner. I think a new bond is enough. The difficultly is initiating the bonding process with a mostly-unreactive spren. It requires a lot of work from the human partner, and possibly the unusual circumstances of meeting the spren in the CR (which as far as we know has never happened before).

Besides I kinda feel like there's been enough bondsmith ex machina.

You are perfectly entitled to that opinion. For myself, when there is a WoB that describes breaking the bond as having a wetware jack forcefully yanked out of the skull, chunky and all, I feel that means something is now missing. To extend the example, if I have a lamp that I plug into the wall, and I yank out the plug with the entire socket, I am left with a hole in the wall. If I later take another lamp, and try to plug it into the gaping hole, nothing happens. I can then take the hanging electrical wires from the gaping hole and wrap them directly around the plug's prongs to power the lamp, but I am going to lose a lot of the power transfer and also risk setting the house on fire. I can then wrap electrical tape around the wires to reduce the chance of fire, and maybe lose less electrical power, but still it isn't going to work the same way as if there was a socket installed. So for me, until a new socket is installed, no matter how you jury rig that connection, you are not going to get the same connection as you would with a socket. I do not feel the bond between Adolin and Maya by itself is enough to reform the "socket". If that was in fact the case, then I do not see why it has not already been accomplished by any number of past shardbearers due to 1. the number of shardbearers we have had over the years, and 2. the number of years in which people experimented with said shardblades. So for me by the law of averages, multiple people would have had to have figured that out long before Adolin. Bondsmiths's entire schitck is about bonds, reuniting, and bringing people together, so that would by definition not be a deus ex machina. It would be well documented over the course of the books, and be plausible. But as I said, that is my own reading of the information we have at hand. 

Edited January 16, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Jaelin]

My preference is that Adolin revives Maya but this process changes her. Rather than just revives her as she once was. I like the implications that this has on the revival process - that humans can fundamentally change spren; and the weight that the revival process has.

[Naurock]

Oooh, I missed this thread when it was first created. There's been quite a few discussions over what Order that Adolin would fit. Some feel he's a perfect fit for Edgedancer, others have argued that he's a better fit for Skybreakers. Crazy tinfoil hat theory coming through!

Maybe since Adolin is the one that won Maya and has forged some sort of connection over the years maybe through this rebirth she instead becomes a spren to fit Adolin's personality instead of him being fit for any specific Order. Like a mix of Edgedancer and Skybreaker, receiving the surges of Division and Abrasion or Progression and Gravitation (I prefer the first pair).

Probably insanely impossible since she's a Cultivationspren and this would probably change her into a new type of spren, but it was a fun thought. Just throwing it out there that this new Desolation is entirely different, insane Heralds, a Singer Surgebinder, a Bondsmith ascended, the enemy using the Everstorm. Why not a new mashup order of 1 with a Stockholm Syndrome spren and an Honorable man? A Radiant that doesn't forget the little guy, but that sees justice dealt.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I just don't feel that a spren can be changed fundamentally barring very powerful intervention like Sja-anat, and even in that case Glys is not that changed as he still basically grants the same Surges just in a modified form. A human definitely can't change a spren to that extent.

And Adolin is definitely not a Skybreaker type.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

The thing with spren is that they are just pure Investiture given sapience. It’s the combination of the different levels of Honor’s Investiture and Cultivation’s Investiture that make them the different types of Radiant spren (kind of like the specific alloy compositions of the metals on Scadrial). The only way for a spren to change type would be for it to fuse with a large enough chunk of Investiture, or through direct Shardic intervention. Either way, this would completely and drastically change the spren, so they would no longer be who they were before.

[Scion of the Mists]

12 hours ago, Naurock said:

Oooh, I missed this thread when it was first created. There's been quite a few discussions over what Order that Adolin would fit. Some feel he's a perfect fit for Edgedancer, others have argued that he's a better fit for Skybreakers. Crazy tinfoil hat theory coming through!

Maybe since Adolin is the one that won Maya and has forged some sort of connection over the years maybe through this rebirth she instead becomes a spren to fit Adolin's personality instead of him being fit for any specific Order. Like a mix of Edgedancer and Skybreaker, receiving the surges of Division and Abrasion or Progression and Gravitation (I prefer the first pair).

Probably insanely impossible since she's a Cultivationspren and this would probably change her into a new type of spren, but it was a fun thought. Just throwing it out there that this new Desolation is entirely different, insane Heralds, a Singer Surgebinder, a Bondsmith ascended, the enemy using the Everstorm. Why not a new mashup order of 1 with a Stockholm Syndrome spren and an Honorable man? A Radiant that doesn't forget the little guy, but that sees justice dealt.

Without derailing this thread, can you briefly explain the Adolin as Skybreaker thing?  I hadn't heard of that before (although I tend to avoid arguments about character-related stuff).  There's even a WoB about the Skybreaker's opinion of Adolin's extra-judicial actions.  

In any event, although I don't think we'll see new mixing of Surges, I think that Progression-Division would be the most interesting and thematic: Life and Death.  

[IGetLIFTed she/her]

I hope that Adolin won’t become an Edgedancer. I feel as though everyone is becoming a Knight Radiant, and I want at least one person to remain a normal human being. I don’t think he could become a Skybreakers, as, regardless of one’s personality, it’s about the spren. The spren are attracted to certain people (ex. Honorspren are attracted to honorable people, liespren are attracted to liars) but I doubt Adolin could change the kind of spren that Maya is, no matter his personality or preferred order. She is cultivationspren, so, if they bonded, he would become an Edgedancer. That won’t happen though, unless something happens to Adolin to break him (apparently you must be broken to become a Knight Radiant).

Edited January 30, 2019 by IGetLIFTed
Grammar

[Pathfinder]

30 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Without derailing this thread, can you briefly explain the Adolin as Skybreaker thing?  I hadn't heard of that before (although I tend to avoid arguments about character-related stuff).  There's even a WoB about the Skybreaker's opinion of Adolin's extra-judicial actions.  

In any event, although I don't think we'll see new mixing of Surges, I think that Progression-Division would be the most interesting and thematic: Life and Death.  

As the oaths and the ideals associated to them can be very open ended and open to interpretation, theoretically you could make an argument for any individual to be a good version for any order. Couple that with the fact that we do know multiple spren from multiple orders do "court" the same individual (Ym with the Truthwatchers and Edgedancers for instance), and I do not think we can conclusively say anyone "cannot" be a member of any order. Brandon in the WoB you quote even says that they might have trouble with that. That does not preclude other situations arising that would result in Adolin being favorable, or a particular skybreaker spren thinking to bond him in contrary to the other spren (as seen with Szeth). 

Edited January 30, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Scion of the Mists]

28 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

58 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Without derailing this thread, can you briefly explain the Adolin as Skybreaker thing?  I hadn't heard of that before (although I tend to avoid arguments about character-related stuff).  There's even a WoB about the Skybreaker's opinion of Adolin's extra-judicial actions.  

In any event, although I don't think we'll see new mixing of Surges, I think that Progression-Division would be the most interesting and thematic: Life and Death.  

As the oaths and the ideals associated to them can be very open ended and open to interpretation, theoretically you could make an argument for any individual to be a good version for any order. Couple that with the fact that we do know multiple spren from multiple orders do "court" the same individual (Ym with the Truthwatchers and Edgedancers for instance), and I do not think we can conclusively say anyone "cannot" be a member of any order. Brandon in the WoB you quote even says that they might have trouble with that. That does not preclude other situations arising that would result in Adolin being favorable, or a particular skybreaker spren thinking to bond him in contrary to the other spren (as seen with Szeth). 

I never said that Adolin "cannot" join the Skybreakers, not sure where you're getting that.  I was just curious what the main argument for Adolin as a Skybreaker was, as it wasn't something I'd come across before and seemed counterintuitive.  I was also trying to not derail the thread...oh well.  

 

34 minutes ago, IGetLIFTed said:

That won’t happen though, unless something happens to Adolin to break him (apparently you must be broken to become a Knight Radiant).

The terminology of "broken" is a little misleading.  Any strong emotion can cause "cracks" in your Spiritweb (which allow foreign Investiture to enter).  There are more means of becoming "broken" than they have discovered in-world.  

[Pathfinder]

17 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

I never said that Adolin "cannot" join the Skybreakers, not sure where you're getting that.  I was just curious what the main argument for Adolin as a Skybreaker was, as it wasn't something I'd come across before and seemed counterintuitive.  I was also trying to not derail the thread...oh well.  

 

The terminology of "broken" is a little misleading.  Any strong emotion can cause "cracks" in your Spiritweb (which allow foreign Investiture to enter).  There are more means of becoming "broken" than they have discovered in-world.  

I was responding to the WoB you referenced indicating that Adolin would have trouble finding membership with the Skybreakers. I explained why I do not think that would be too great a barrier. 

[CrazyRioter she/her]

Adolin's temperament is just totally at odds with the Skybreakers we've seen. He is, however, quite in line with what we know about Edgedancers.

Regardless, if he does bond Maya he will be an Edgedancer.

[Pathfinder]

35 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

Adolin's temperament is just totally at odds with the Skybreakers we've seen. He is, however, quite in line with what we know about Edgedancers.

Regardless, if he does bond Maya he will be an Edgedancer.

And up until the revelation of Maya being an Edgedancer blade everyone was so sure that Adolin could only be a Releaser. Just saying we can't close any possibilities, even if he does bond Maya, because we have seen that multiple orders do pursue the same person.  

 

edit: To illustrate, Kaladin exemplifies the windrunners in every way. Yet Syl commented on how Kaladin was sounding more like a skybreaker at one point. Another time Syl smacked away a glory spren saying to it "he's mine". We see glory spren tend to hang out around Bondsmiths (like how creation spren around lightweavers, logic spren around elsecallers, and wind spren around windrunners). Finally we could easily say there have been countless times where Kaladin has taken up hopeless causes and fought them anyway (stonewards). That right there are 4 orders (Windrunners, Bondsmiths, Skybreakers, and Stonewards) just going off the top of my head without even digging further into the character and the other potential radiant orders. 

Edited January 30, 2019 by Pathfinder

[CrazyRioter she/her]

IIRC there was quite a lot of disagreement about what order he could be actually. Dustbringer was suggested but Windrunner was suggested as well. And I believe his being an Edgedancer was brought up after WoR but before we had confirmation that his blade was a cultivationspren (which we got via WoB before Oathbringer came out due to a very observant person.).

We have a lot more information to go on then we did in the past. And a person can fit multiple orders but in almost all cases if one spren bonds somebody other spren won't want to share even if the person could fit into that order.

[Pathfinder]

7 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

IIRC there was quite a lot of disagreement about what order he could be actually. Dustbringer was suggested but Windrunner was suggested as well. And I believe his being an Edgedancer was brought up after WoR but before we had confirmation that his blade was a cultivationspren (which we got via WoB before Oathbringer came out due to a very observant person.).

We have a lot more information to go on then we did in the past. And a person can fit multiple orders but in almost all cases if one spren bonds somebody other spren won't want to share even if the person could fit into that order.

For quite some time the argument went something to the effect of "I think Adolin could be "enter order here"", to which the response was "You are wrong, Adolin only shows the attributes that could be attributed to a Releaser". My point is we cannot conclusively say Adolin cannot fit in other orders. The oaths are too open to interpretation. My other point was even if he was to bond Maya, that does not change that he could have potentially have bonded a different order, considering as evidenced in Kaladin, as well as Ym, spren of other orders would still express interest even after they had bonded. Also it has been confirmed via WoB that a radiant can bond multiple spren. They would not prefer it, and it would be difficult to maintain multiple oaths, but again just because you bond one order, does not mean you could not possibly ever have bonded any other order. 

In summation, if you feel you have evidence that leads you to believe Adolin fits edgedancers, then that is great. But evidence of one order does not prevent or cancel out the possibility of other orders. Hope that clarified things. 

Edited January 30, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Sunbringer he/him]

17 hours ago, Naurock said:

There's been quite a few discussions over what Order that Adolin would fit. Some feel he's a perfect fit for Edgedancer, others have argued that he's a better fit for Skybreakers.

Ah, yes. The two orders that can almost never get along! I mean seriously, with the Skybreakers refusing to show mercy, the Edgedancers are going to be constantly annoyed by them, and with their sometimes unorthodox methods, the Skybreakers will always be annoyed with them, too!

WoR and Oathbringer spoilers:

Spoiler

Also, Adolin freaking killed Sadeas. There is no way he's a Skybreaker.

 

[Pathfinder]

18 minutes ago, Sunbringer said:

Ah, yes. The two orders that can almost never get along! I mean seriously, with the Skybreakers refusing to show mercy, the Edgedancers are going to be constantly annoyed by them, and with their sometimes unorthodox methods, the Skybreakers will always be annoyed with them, too!

WoR and Oathbringer spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Also, Adolin freaking killed Sadeas. There is no way he's a Skybreaker.

 

Lift and Szeth seem to get along quite well to me and they are an edgedancer and skybreaker respectively. Szeth killed quite a few people while holding to a persona code. Adolin killed Sadeas while holding to a personal code. Brandon said maybe. That does not preclude him from potentially attracting a skybreaker spren

Edited January 30, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Sunbringer he/him]

Good point. However, Szeth killed the people before being a skybreaker. He also didn’t want to do it. Adolin just wanted Sadeas dead (and with really freaking good reason)