If Maya revives, will she be the same?

[Brightness Jencee]

@Alderant All fair points. I would really like to see an Edgedancer Adolin in a shardblade fight though. Seeing how Kaladin's accomplished spear skills were taken to a whole new level as a Windrunner, imagine what Adolin's shardblade skills would be like with Edgedancer abilities added in.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

Just now, Brightness Jencee said:

@Alderant All fair points. I would really like to see an Edgedancer Adolin in a shardblade fight though. Seeing how Kaladin's accomplished spear skills were taken to a whole new level as a Windrunner, imagine what Adolin's shardblade skills would be like with Edgedancer abilities added in.

It'd be amazing. We're told Edgedancers were graceful and deadly on the battlefield, we haven't had a chance to see that with Lift (though maybe she will learn), but we could definitely see it with Adolin.

[Alderant she/her]

The whole take away from me here, is that Maya reviving and Adolin becoming a KR is really only a theory with a shaky foundation at best. Just because we want to see it, doesn't mean we will--I mean, I'm a huge fan of a Jasnah/Kaladin relationship, and I think I make a decent case for it, but will it show up in stormlight? Probably not.

It's the same with Adolin. Yeah, seeing him flashy on the battlefield might be kind of cool, but there isn't any story-founded reason (well, okay, there is but no one espousing this idea would like it) for Adolin to be promoted to Edgedancer. In my opinion, he serves the novel better as the everyman who is important to the main characters. This way, he can contrast them, be a foil to their arcs and development.

And Lift is our Edgedancer--like it or not, she is the poster child for the Edgedancer Order. That means that more than likely, what we learn of Edgedancers will come through an association with her, rather than a prince who maybe might one day revive his dead spren and maybe might be able to bond with her.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Alderant
grammar edit

[CrazyRioter she/her]

5 minutes ago, Alderant said:

The whole take away from me here, is that Maya reviving and Adolin becoming a KR is really only a theory with a shaky foundation at best. Just because we want to see it, doesn't mean we will--I mean, I'm a huge fan of a Jasnah/Kaladin relationship, and I think I make a decent case for it, but will it show up in stormlight? Probably not.

It's the same with Adolin. Yeah, seeing him flashy on the battlefield might be kind of cool, but there isn't any story-founded reason (well, okay, there is but no one espousing this idea would like it) for Adolin to be promoted to Edgedancer. In my opinion, he serves the novel better as the everyman who is important to the main characters. This way, he can contrast them, be a foil to their arcs and development.

And Lift is our Edgedancer--like it or not, she is the poster child for the Edgedancer Order. That means that more than likely, what we learn of Edgedancers will come through an association with her, rather than a prince who maybe might one day revive his dead spren and maybe might be able to bond with her.

Brandon originally intended Adolin as a foil, but he's even said he's grown beyond that. He's got his own problems and insecurities and troubles and just using him as a foil would be doing a disservice to his character at this point. And, frankly, if he doesn't get powers he's going to end up either dead or sidelined and pushed off into the background. He can't continue in a front-line role with the main characters as is.  And given how the narrative has highlighted his concern for his Shardblade even before he knew she was a dead spren, and especially after, and what happened in Shadesmar and Thaylen field, it'd be bad writing to just drop that thread.

[Pathfinder]

9 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

Brandon originally intended Adolin as a foil, but he's even said he's grown beyond that. He's got his own problems and insecurities and troubles and just using him as a foil would be doing a disservice to his character at this point. And, frankly, if he doesn't get powers he's going to end up either dead or sidelined and pushed off into the background. He can't continue in a front-line role with the main characters as is.  And given how the narrative has highlighted his concern for his Shardblade even before he knew she was a dead spren, and especially after, and what happened in Shadesmar and Thaylen field, it'd be bad writing to just drop that thread.

With all due respect that is a self validating rationale. In your opinion, Adolin needs the shardblade narrative to do justice for his character. So there has to be a reason for the narrative to only apply to him, so he can have the narrative that will do justice to his character. To do otherwise would be bad writing. You are perfectly entitled to want Adolin to have that narrative, but that does not mean Adolin could not benefit from some other narrative, or even one where he remains human -sans- radiant. As I said I think he will become an edgedancer, but that doesn't mean a good story could not be written with him as human. 

[Void89 he/him]

1 hour ago, CrazyRioter said:

Brandon originally intended Adolin as a foil, but he's even said he's grown beyond that. He's got his own problems and insecurities and troubles and just using him as a foil would be doing a disservice to his character at this point. And, frankly, if he doesn't get powers he's going to end up either dead or sidelined and pushed off into the background. He can't continue in a front-line role with the main characters as is.  And given how the narrative has highlighted his concern for his Shardblade even before he knew she was a dead spren, and especially after, and what happened in Shadesmar and Thaylen field, it'd be bad writing to just drop that thread.

He has a personal healer, his brother, plate and blade - sure he might not be as powerful as a full fledged radiant but as it is now he is far from useless or 'dead weight' - if he actually becomes an edgedancer and can't swear the first 3 ideals instantly he would actually be more in danger than he is now.

Because, as we all know, blade comes with the 3rd ideal. And until then he wouldn't even be able to use a dead spren because of the crazy screaming action in his head.

That said it's actually more likely he dies if he becomes an edgedancer because I can't think of any scenario where it's 'good writing' or believable where he's close to death and then:

'Wait I got this - Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination - I will remember those who have been ignored - wait don't kill me yet there is one more - just need to catch my breath first... right aaaand I will listen to those who have been ignored'

Yeah... probably not...

PS: thanks to whoever fused my 2 posts 

Edited February 6, 2019 by Void89

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Jofwu said:

There are some less significant pieces of evidence in favor of the idea, I think, but Venli is a pretty strong case for it. She is VERY different from Eshonai, to the point that I really don't see how a single spren can see the Willshaper ideals (whatever they are, exactly) clearly in both of them. So it seems to me that there's some flexibility.

I actually don't think Venli and Eshonai are that different from each other. Eshonai's true passion was exploration. Venli is a researcher and what is research, if not exploration, just not exploring the land, but rather scientific topics to further knowledge? And both cared a lot for their people.

While we don't know much about the Willshapers, we know this:

Quote

And now, if there was an uncut gem among the Radiance, it was the Willshapers; for though enterprising, they were erratic, and Invia wrote of them, "capricious, frustrating, unreliable," as taking it for granted that others would agree; this may have been an intolerant view, as often Invia expressed, for this order was said to be most varied, inconsistent in temperament save for a general love of adventure, novelty, or oddity.

I think, that very much fits with both of them. Especially because it also mentions inconsistency in temperament.

Quote

Mechanically speaking, I don't see any reason whatsoever as to why any person can't bond with a spren of any order. That's simply a decision for the spren (and perhaps in part for the human) as far as I can tell. If the person doesn't fit into the order, it would mean that they will have a hard time advancing, and the spren might see that as a reason not to choose that person. And it seems like the spren would be less likely to choose someone who doesn't fit their own inherent values from the start. But I don't see any reason why they couldn't choose whoever they please, if they have some motivation that supersedes all that logic.

See, I actually agree with that, but this is not just "trouble advancing", but a true possibility of outright failure. I have already quoted out of in-world Words of Radiance for that. I think, that this is something, that tends to be conveniently forgotten here. Of course, Maya might try to bond Adolin, but I'm rather trying to assess if he could actually hold and advance that bond.

Edited February 6, 2019 by SLNC

[CrazyRioter she/her]

5 minutes ago, Void89 said:

He has a personal healer, his brother, plate and blade - sure he might not be as powerful as a full fledged radiant but as it is now he is far from useless or 'dead weight' - if he actually becomes an edgedancer and can't swear the first 3 ideals instantly he would actually be more in danger than he is now.

Because, as we all know, blade comes with the 3rd ideal. And until then he wouldn't even be able to use a dead spren because of the crazy screaming action in his head.

That said it's actually more likely he dies if he becomes an edgedancer because I can't think of any scenario where it's 'good writing' or believable where he's close to death and then:

'Wait I got this - Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination - I will remember those who have been ignored - wait don't kill me yet there is one more - just need to catch my breath first... right aaaand I will listen to those who have been ignored'

Yeah... probably not...

PS: thanks to whoever fused my 2 posts 

With regard to him being in more danger, maybe temporarily. But that depends on how you imagine her healing might progress. This is a unique situation, the usual rules do not necessarily apply. She might still be "stuck" as a Blade until she's fully healed. In any case, being temporarily out of commission while he works on bonding her properly is a far cry from being permanently outmatched by pretty well everyone.

I also agree with @SLNC about the Willshapers, both Eshonai and Venli do fit, Venli is less ideal, which is why Timbre went for Eshonai preferentially but both do fit.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, CrazyRioter said:

This is a unique situation, the usual rules do not necessarily apply. She might still be "stuck" as a Blade until she's fully healed.

Agreed, and that is why it is not good to just assume, that bonding is currently taking place. Especially with the variable of the Perpendicularity at TC playing into it. For instance, we don't even know if the summoning time still is 7 heartbeats after Adolin left the vicinity or if it reverted back to 10 heartbeats.

[IGetLIFTed she/her]

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

Kinda.

More the fact, that a bond must form to revive a deadeye is only a theory, that gets thrown around as fact.

Well if broken oaths are what kill a spren, it’s not a large jump to say that restoring those oaths may revive the spren.

I also agree that Adolin doesn’t need Edgedancer ideals to bond Maya. Those ideals might be what attract the spren in the first place, but the bond itself shouldn’t be affected by the personality of the Radiant, as long as said Radiant upholds his/her oaths.

Edited February 6, 2019 by IGetLIFTed

[Pathfinder]

So I am still looking for the third WoB (just started), but below are Words of Brandon confirming that at least with Squires, there is nothing guaranteed in the bond. I could have sworn there was a WoB that confirmed you could bond a spren and remain at any level of oath your entire life. Bonding a spren does not mean you always advance in oaths, or could not fail in progressing. Actually now that I think about it, Nale mentions exactly this considering he is the only fully oathed Skybreaker in how many years? Will post the third WoB when I locate it

 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
In the original Knights Radiant, when they had squires, were all of the squires destined for bonding spren?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
No. Many stayed squires forever and that was okay.

 

 

Storm Cellar
Do squires always bond the spren of their Knight's order? Or can they attract a different type of spren?

Also, was it normal for someone to serve their whole life as a squire?

Brandon Sanderson
They can attract a different spren. 

It was indeed normal, depending on the order and the person.  

 

25 minutes ago, IGetLIFTed said:

Well if broken oaths are what kill a spren, it’s not a large jump to say that restoring those oaths may will revive the spren.

I also agree that Adolin doesn’t need Edgedancer ideals to bond Maya. Those ideals might be what attract the spren in the first place, but the bond itself shouldn’t be affected by the personality of the Radiant, as long as said Radiant upholds his/her oaths.

Except we have a WoB that state that works with the original knight that broke those oaths. Adolin is not that original knight. 

[CrazyRioter she/her]

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Except we have a WoB that state that works with the original knight that broke those oaths. Adolin is not that original knight. 

He said 'in most cases' on a least one occasion, which implies that there are some situations where somebody else could do it. I don't ever expect this sort of thing to be common, but the WoBs suggest it's entirely possible.

Edited February 6, 2019 by CrazyRioter

[IGetLIFTed she/her]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

Except we have a WoB that state that works with the original knight that broke those oaths. Adolin is not that original knight. 

Well, how do you think you can revive a dead spren?

[Pathfinder]

18 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

He said 'in most cases' on a least one occasion, which implies that there are some situations where somebody else could do it. I don't ever expect this sort of thing to be common, but the WoBs suggest it's entirely possible.

Below is a list of WoB regarding the original knight and the oaths

 

Questioner
Shardblades are essentially spren that have died--

Brandon Sanderson
Not all of them have died but yeah.

Questioner
Oh, my question was if they could be revived?

Brandon Sanderson
Um this… According to the understanding of those in-world it would require the same person who broke their oath. So it would be possible if any of them were still alive. I'm not ruling out other ways, but that's how it's understood by--

Questioner
It would be the traditional way.

Brandon Sanderson
Yeah, mmhmm.

 

Questioner
So you said that, specifically on Roshar, shardblades haven't been revived? And, have they been on other worlds?

Brandon Sanderson
Uh, no, there are very few things you could call shardblades on other worlds.

Questioner
Well, I meant the spren that were...

Brandon Sanderson
Ah ok, yeah yeah yeah. No let's just just...it hasn't ever happened before, and they, in-world, think it's impossible.

 

Questioner
And I also have a question about the nature of spren being dead. Specifically about whether or not they can resurrected. Because ideas can never really die...

Brandon Sanderson
Ideas can never really die--

Questioner
... Cognitive creatures--

Brandon Sanderson
They are Cognitive creatures. This is theoretically possible but very difficult without the people who originally betrayed their oaths.

18 minutes ago, IGetLIFTed said:

Well, how do you think you can revive a dead spren?

I posted it a bunch of pages ago. I don't want to digress further by rehashing it, but if you would like me to re-type it out, I would be happy to. The TLDR version is Adolin's faux bond strengthened his Connection to the blade providing the scaffolding for Dalinar to infuse with investiture from being a Bondsmith to regrow the "data port" in Maya's "head"

 

edit: bolded to call attention to. To clarify was not implying Adolin couldn't bond Maya from just living the oaths (I don't think he could, but that is my own theory. not precluding the possibility for others). Just responding to the point made that if an original knight could rebond the spren and restore the oaths, then that would mean that Adolin could too. Hope that clarifies things. 

Edited February 6, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, IGetLIFTed said:

Those ideals might be what attract the spren in the first place, but the bond itself shouldn’t be affected by the personality of the Radiant, as long as said Radiant upholds his/her oaths.

It absolutely should, because the personality (behaviors, cognitions and emotional(!) patterns) determines whether or not he actually can swear those oaths and most of all uphold them in the long run.

[IGetLIFTed she/her]

35 minutes ago, SLNC said:

It absolutely should, because the personality (behaviors, cognitions and emotional(!) patterns) determines whether or not he actually can swear those oaths and most of all uphold them in the long run.

Emphasis on as long as said Radiant upholds his/her oaths. For example someone could swear the Edgedancer ideals without being described as “loving” and “healing,” the Edgedancer/Vedel traits.

[Alderant she/her]

Just now, IGetLIFTed said:

Emphasis on as long as said Radiant upholds his/her oaths. For example someone could swear the Edgedancer ideals without being described as “loving” and “healing,” the Edgedancer/Vedel traits.

I think you're misunderstanding the point here--swearing the ideals and having the traits are co-symptomatic. Someone who can progress through those ideals will inherently exhibit those traits. To not have those traits and try to speak those oaths would be like a sociopath trying to fit in with a group of empaths. I can't see a situation where a knight radiant could swear the ideals, but not mean them. It's not a simple act of obedience to a letter--the oaths shape the very core of the knight who makes them. They may not embody the traits to the same degree as another--I doubt you'd describe Teft or Lopen as "protective" as Kaladin, but Teft, Lopen, and Kaladin all share similar traits--those of standing up for others, of holding to one's own and trying to do the right thing in a given circumstance, even if they all have different ways of going about it.

Keep in mind also that "loving" and "healing" come are ascribed traits of Edgedancers in-world. That may not necessarily be the actual traits they embody, but rather the perceived traits associated with that Order. Just some food for thought.

[Pathfinder]

Just wanted to add a quote from Oathbringer that I think helps support that Dalinar could potentially help Adolin restore Maya, and would show it wouldn't come out of left field. This is the stormfather speaking to Dalinar about his powers:

"Yours is the power Ishar once held. before he was Herald of Luck, they called him Binder of Gods. He was the found of the Oathpact. No Radiant is capable of more than you. Yours is the power of Connection, of joining men and worlds, minds and souls."

[Jaelin]

On ‎7‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 2:01 AM, CrazyRioter said:

His dad was either absent or alcoholic for most of his childhood and adolescence and his mom is dead. Clearly the epitome of a normal, happy life.He has major self-esteem issues that are coming increasingly to the forefront as of Oathbringer. He's only a shallow character if you read on a surface level and don't read deeper. And any character is 'shallow" if you only look at the surface layer. That's part of the reason I like him, he looks like the stereotypical self-confident jock, but he really isn't.

Regardless, this is getting a little off topic for this thread, there's other threads to discuss Adolin's character in general.

You and I often disagree on things Adolin and Maya related, but in this I am fully in agreement with you.

Especially given the introspection contained in Oathbringer; in the time of the desolation, the resources that Adolin has been "given" are substantially less important than those "given" to Kaladin or Dalinar and Adolin knows it. The reassessment of priorities that he goes through is very interesting as it is reflective of much of the changing values of the times.

[Calderis he/him]

I've been busy and it seems I missed a lot. 

So quick rundown. 

1) perpendicularities are undirected investiture that can be used, but lacks capital I Intent. They do not heal. Mayas growth, unless there is some evidence to show otherwise which I am unaware, cannot be attributed to the Perpendicularity. 

2) the Temperament of the Person should absolutely have an effect both on drawing a spren, and holding to those oaths. How do you think they maintain the necessary oaths in the first place? A Windrunner and a Skybreaker would have severe issues keeping the oaths of the opposing order. 

And on this note, as I've said in prior discussions (and arguments) Adolin and Lift are very similar in many ways. Much in the same way that Venli and Eshonai are far more similar Tha. They first appear. 

I believe he fits the order well. 

3) the WoB that mentions the reviving a spren needing the original Radiant says that they would believe it require the original. We also have others that say that in world they believe it's impossible. 

We've seen plenty of cases in world where what is believed in world is nowhere near truth. 

4) Until a proposal is given that fits what we have seen better, both narratively and realmatically, I'll hold to Maya's growth being a result of the bond. 

I've seen plenty of people say they don't like the idea, but I've yet to see a alternative proposal that holds up to the things we know. 

[Pathfinder]

33 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I've been busy and it seems I missed a lot. 

So quick rundown. 

1) perpendicularities are undirected investiture that can be used, but lacks capital I Intent. They do not heal. Mayas growth, unless there is some evidence to show otherwise which I am unaware, cannot be attributed to the Perpendicularity. 

2) the Temperament of the Person should absolutely have an effect both on drawing a spren, and holding to those oaths. How do you think they maintain the necessary oaths in the first place? A Windrunner and a Skybreaker would have severe issues keeping the oaths of the opposing order. 

And on this note, as I've said in prior discussions (and arguments) Adolin and Lift are very similar in many ways. Much in the same way that Venli and Eshonai are far more similar Tha. They first appear. 

I believe he fits the order well. 

3) the WoB that mentions the reviving a spren needing the original Radiant says that they would believe it require the original. We also have others that say that in world they believe it's impossible. 

We've seen plenty of cases in world where what is believed in world is nowhere near truth. 

4) Until a proposal is given that fits what we have seen better, both narratively and realmatically, I'll hold to Maya's growth being a result of the bond. 

I've seen plenty of people say they don't like the idea, but I've yet to see a alternative proposal that holds up to the things we know. 

1) Got nothing to comment on this as I do not feel what is happening with Maya has anything to do with healing

2) Nothing to add here either, except my earlier point that Adolin could theoretically fit other orders as well as per the WoB I posted

3) I clarified my post before, but I will clarify it again. The statement made prior was that since other radiants could revive their spren by reforming the oaths (kaladin), then so too could Adolin. My point was the difference is in Kaladin's case he was the original knight that swore the oaths. Brandon has said if you are not the original knight, it is harder. Nothing about that WoB says it has to be through living the oaths, just like nothing says it can't

4) Personally I feel my theory is a proposal that holds up rather well. You disagree and think your own proposal holds up rather well. I disagree. Others disagree with both of ours and prefer their valid alternatives. I respect your view and wish you luck with your theory!

Edited February 8, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Calderis he/him]

32 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

1) Got nothing to comment on this as I do not feel what is happening with Maya has anything to do with healing

And I don't see how it could be anything else. Her mental faculties are returning. She was summoned in under the ten second requirement. 

If this were all because of the perpendicularity then it should have effected other shard bearers as well, and I find it highly unlikely that that would have been the case and we not hear of it. Blades in Thaylenah are few, but they are still there and they would have been used. 

If it were purely because of the perpendicularity, it also should have been consistent. Summoning more quickly at the height of the perp and returning to normal as it faded. Instead we see normal summoning right up until Adolin needs it, as if it was Maya's choice. 

38 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

2) Nothing to add here either, except my earlier point that Adolin could theoretically fit other orders as well as per the WoB I posted

Which I don't understand the relevance of. Being able to fit into other orders does not bar you from joining one as long as you still fit it. 

Just look at Ym. 

39 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

3) I clarified my post before, but I will clarify it again. The statement made prior was that since other radiants could revive their spren by reforming the oaths (kaladin), then so too could Adolin. My point was the difference is in Kaladin's case he was the original knight that swore the oaths. Brandon has said if you are not the original knight, it is harder. Nothing about that WoB says it has to be through living the oaths, just like nothing says it can't

Whereas I believe the evidence points to the Nahel Bond itself being what was "ripped out" of the spren, and the entire reason it's easier for the original Radiant is because that Connection already exists and simply needs to be restored. 

For someone not bonded, they must forge that Connection with a near mindless entity, which seems like a ridiculously high bar. 

I think that the manner in which Syl was restored is evidence in favor of a bond being what is required to heal deadeyes. 

42 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

4) Personally I feel my theory is a proposal that holds up rather well. You disagree and think your own proposal holds up rather well. I disagree. Others disagree with both of ours and prefer their valid alternatives. I respect your view and wish you luck with your theory!

I'm... Not sure I understand what your proposal actually is. You don't believe Maya is healing, and to revive her would require some massive input of Investiture... Which makes it seem like the development of Adolin and Maya is pointless as under those stipulations any blade could be healed without need of anything special beyond a massive input of Investiture shaped correctly. 

[Pathfinder]

10 hours ago, Calderis said:

And I don't see how it could be anything else. Her mental faculties are returning. She was summoned in under the ten second requirement. 

If this were all because of the perpendicularity then it should have effected other shard bearers as well, and I find it highly unlikely that that would have been the case and we not hear of it. Blades in Thaylenah are few, but they are still there and they would have been used. 

If it were purely because of the perpendicularity, it also should have been consistent. Summoning more quickly at the height of the perp and returning to normal as it faded. Instead we see normal summoning right up until Adolin needs it, as if it was Maya's choice. 

Which I don't understand the relevance of. Being able to fit into other orders does not bar you from joining one as long as you still fit it. 

Just look at Ym. 

Whereas I believe the evidence points to the Nahel Bond itself being what was "ripped out" of the spren, and the entire reason it's easier for the original Radiant is because that Connection already exists and simply needs to be restored. 

For someone not bonded, they must forge that Connection with a near mindless entity, which seems like a ridiculously high bar. 

I think that the manner in which Syl was restored is evidence in favor of a bond being what is required to heal deadeyes. 

I'm... Not sure I understand what your proposal actually is. You don't believe Maya is healing, and to revive her would require some massive input of Investiture... Which makes it seem like the development of Adolin and Maya is pointless as under those stipulations any blade could be healed without need of anything special beyond a massive input of Investiture shaped correctly. 

Ok, so got a whole lot to type in hopefully a concise manner. Wish me luck!

That is great that you do not think it could be anything else. That does not mean that it can't be anything else. Alternative lines of thought differ from your own. That does not mean intrinsically yours is the the only valid theory. To put this another way. Your theory is not like the theory of gravity or evolution. Those have been tested over and over by repeatable tests and conclusions. The information we have right now does not provide that. We have a small amount of data points that can be interpreted in a myriad of ways that result in a myriad of theories. Just because those reasons do not jive with you, does not mean their reasons are any less valid or hold up any less. 

Now I will jump around a little bit because the main point I would like to make is rather long and does involve your points at various times so it will not be a 1 to 1 response. So I will first cover the short responses

2) The relevance is it was brought forward that Adolin would bond Maya as an edgedancer because he has edgedancer traits. My point is he could also be categorized into other orders, that does not automatically mean he will bond or even revive spren from those orders. Basically one supposition does not naturally lead to the other is my point. It does not preclude it, but it does not intrinsically validate it. Which comes up a lot in your theory, but I will get to that below

3) The manner Syl was restored was with her original knight. WoB says that without the original knight it is very difficult. He has made it clear that the process, whatever it may be, is harder if you are not the original knight that swore the oaths. Adolin is not the original knight. Syl being restored by Kaladin does not preclude Adolin from doing the same, but it also does not intrinsically prove it can happen. Again, that is a supposition you are making and painting as a fact. As to the connection comment being "ridiculously" high bar, I will respond further down

4) So you are so sure only your own theory holds water, yet you admit you do not actually understand what my theory is? On top of not understanding my theory, you then assume that it would mean Adolin and Maya's development would be pointless which is most certainly a personal opinion, and no where near fact whatsoever. I will respond to this further below as well.

 

So, now we get to what I feel is the crux of my post. I think it is not beneficial to this thread to state ones own theory in a manner that precludes any other possibilities, and presents ones own theory as either fact, the only valid theory, or the only one with the most weight(upheld). I think this is not beneficial when the information we have is far from conclusive to support any of the theories presented in this thread. Everyone has very valid theories that work for them. Some agree with each other, some disagree. But the fact of the matter is, we just do not have enough information to say "well this theory is the best one to work from". What we have is reasons that jive the most with some people, and they thereby feel it fits best for them, but that does not make it fact. As an illustration (and not an attack), I will demonstrate why I feel your theory does not hold water to me (and this is after I have already read your theory multiple times).

1. Maya is summoned in under the normal 10 heartbeats. Maya communicates her name to Adolin. Maya runs out to stop the Fused who is attacking Adolin in the cognitive realm. All of this is fact. All of this everyone acknowledges happened. 

2. Because of the above three instances, no other dead shardblade does this, so in order for these three things to occur, Maya must be healing. This is a supposition. A hypothesis. One you use to back up and self validate the rest of your theory. Now why does this not hold weight for me? Because each instance could be explained by a different mechanic. Do I think those mechanics are the reason for those occurrences? No. I think there are different reasons for them, but the fact that they are valid when concerning your theory is enough for me to feel your theory does not hold up, so I do not prescribe to it. I will notate these by letters as subcategories in an effort to try and keep this organized. 

A. Maya summoned in under the normal 10 heartbeats. We have a WoB that the further away you are from the spren in the cognitive realm, the longer it takes to summon it via heartbeats. The example given was going off planet, since a dead spren could not follow in that case, and the distance would result in a few heartbeat difference. To me if a heartbeat difference could be seen when you are further away from a spren, then theoretically a heartbeat difference could be seen if you are closer to the spren. The realms were brought together when Adolin summoned Maya in 7 heartbeats, so theoretically they were closer then. Also when Adolin was first in the cognitive realm, he goes to summon his shardblade. Maya immediately looks at him, raises her hand, and begins to scream. He is the closest to her he could possibly be, and when he goes to summon her, she responds immediately. Does that mean she healed a whole bunch then? The heartbeats are down to 0. So if reducing the heartbeats to summon a shardblade means she is healing, then why did she go to needing 0 heartbeats then, but go back to needing more when he came out into the physical realm? You do not think that response works. Fine, I respect that, but it still is a valid point, and one that can exist without Maya healing. 

B. Maya communicates her name to Adolin. Dalinar hears oathbringer whimper instead of scream. The stormfather says it is because oathbringer remembers the oaths Dalinar made and broke so it hates him less. One could reply well Dalinar hears it because he is a radiant. But the supposition says Maya communicating with Adolin shows healing because it is a sign of improvement. That improvement is the product of the bond between Adolin and Maya. Oathbringer is showing these signs by not screaming as much. Yet it is not bonded to Dalinar anymore. If anything the bond was broken, and then bonded to Sadeas. If the bond is necessary in order to heal and improve a spren, then why didn't Oathbringers "improvement" retard when Dalinar severed the bond? If living the oaths while bonded to the dead spren blade is crucial to reviving it, then why didn't Sadeas bonding Oathbringer make Oathbringer worse? If your reply is that the healing cannot be reversed, then we go back to the point a made a few pages back. Then why over the thousands of years since the Recreance and the significant number of generations, couldn't multiple shardbearers live the oaths enough each time, to heal a shard blade bit by bit by bit till it came back? Why is only Adolin the very first? Especially when we see Dalinar experience the same thing?

C. Maya stops the fused from attacking Adolin. We have never seen any other shardbearer travel to the cognitive realm, be put into danger, and see how the spren associated with his or her shardblade reacts. One data point does not a trend make. 

3. Now that we established Maya has to be healing (which we didn't actually), then by extension there must (there doesn't have to be) a reason that is healing her. Perpendicularities cannot heal investiture. But there is that problematic WoB about the dataport being torn out. Not a plug removed. Ripped out, chunky and all. Well investiture cannot come from no where, and the bond cannot create investiture, so by extension there must (there doesn't have to be) a reason to validate that Maya is healing, because Maya has to be healing because she was summoned in less than 7 heartbeats, spoke her name, and defended Adolin. So we must be interpreting that WoB incorrectly, or misunderstanding the process. Let me now think of a process, that is in line with our understanding of the cosmere, that will then validate the supposition that Maya is healing, so then that Maya healing can then support my supposition that she had anything torn out to begin with. Its cyclical. Now you put a lot of work in your theory and you have a great understanding of realmatic theory to support it. But that does not change you draw all of this on a supposition that Maya is healing. A supposition not everyone agrees on. A supposition other people have derived other theories from by interpreting it differently. And the big part? Those theories are just as valid. 

Now as an aside. If you please will go back and re-read my prior posts, I answer all your questions already about my theory. I do not see the point of repeating it all here because I assumed you took the time to fully read my posts and understand them. If then say you disagree, then me repeating it all accomplishes nothing except me taking up more space and me repeating myself. However for the sake of brevity I will give the TLDR version below:

1. Adolin living the oaths, and talking to Maya strengthens/insulated his Connection (capital C) of the faux bond to Maya

2. The bond is crucial because it provides the scaffolding for the infusion of investiture. The strength of the Connection is crucial because it will need to maintain during the massive infusion of investiture

3. The inclusion of a Bondsmith is crucial because it is written in their entire power set about bringing things together, soul, mind, and body. This is validated by Dalinar's actions and by the Stormfather's own words. 

4. This experience would cause Dalinar and Adolin to work closely together for an extended period of time on an extremely personal and emotional endeavor to Adolin. To me I think that takes nothing away from Adolin and if anything adds a ton of growth and depth. 

 

But that is just my own theory that I think holds up most to me. All our theories can co-exist and we can all prefer our own theories and discuss them without making others feel like they are wrong and I am right. That is why I feel some people on this thread take issue with the way you and CrazyRioter present your theory. it is not fact, and it is not the only valid one out there. You think it is because the reasons work best for you. 

 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Calderis he/him]

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Maya summoned in under the normal 10 heartbeats. We have a WoB that the further away you are from the spren in the cognitive realm, the longer it takes to summon it via heartbeats. The example given was going off planet, since a dead spren could not follow in that case, and the distance would result in a few heartbeat difference. To me if a heartbeat difference could be seen when you are further away from a spren, then theoretically a heartbeat difference could be seen if you are closer to the spren. The realms were brought together when Adolin summoned Maya in 7 heartbeats, so theoretically they were closer then. Also when Adolin was first in the cognitive realm, he goes to summon his shardblade. Maya immediately looks at him, raises her hand, and begins to scream. He is the closest to her he could possibly be, and when he goes to summon her, she responds immediately. Does that mean she healed a whole bunch then? The heartbeats are down to 0. So if reducing the heartbeats to summon a shardblade means she is healing, then why did she go to needing 0 heartbeats then, but go back to needing more when he came out into the physical realm? You do not think that response works. Fine, I respect that, but it still is a valid point, and one that can exist without Maya healing. 

Except if it were the distance mechanic, which is based of of the speed of light, then the ten heartbeat limit should be beaten regularly, and as I said above, if it were a result of the perpendicularity it should have been consistent. Instead it was shown to happen at a time of need, as if it were a result of a choice and effort on Maya's part.

And as seen with Syl and pattern, a shardblade can't be summoned in the Cognitive Realm, so that line of reason bears no weight. 

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Maya communicates her name to Adolin. Dalinar hears oathbringer whimper instead of scream. The stormfather says it is because oathbringer remembers the oaths Dalinar made and broke so it hates him less. One could reply well Dalinar hears it because he is a radiant. But the supposition says Maya communicating with Adolin shows healing because it is a sign of improvement. That improvement is the product of the bond between Adolin and Maya. Oathbringer is showing these signs by not screaming as much. Yet it is not bonded to Dalinar anymore. If anything the bond was broken, and then bonded to Sadeas. If the bond is necessary in order to heal and improve a spren, then why didn't Oathbringers "improvement" retard when Dalinar severed the bond? If living the oaths while bonded to the dead spren blade is crucial to reviving it, then why didn't Sadeas bonding Oathbringer make Oathbringer worse? If your reply is that the healing cannot be reversed, then we go back to the point a made a few pages back. Then why over the thousands of years since the Recreance and the significant number of generations, couldn't multiple shardbearers live the oaths enough each time, to heal a shard blade bit by bit by bit till it came back? Why is only Adolin the very first? Especially when we see Dalinar experience the same thing?

Dalinar is not experiencing the same thing. Contact with a person who has an active Nahel bond creates a sort of resonance that pushes a spren closer to life. This is why Relis heard his blade speak when Kaladin touched it in the dueling arena. 

Oathbringer was bonded to his soul, and because of that has connection to him that though his bond has been severed, is still there shallowly, his touch with a Nahel bond awakens those memories. 

Adolin has no such bond with a living spren to create that effect. 

As to why Adolin is the first, I think it precisely because he is the first person to meet their blade in the Cognitive. He has been forced to see the blade as more than just a weapon. Knowing the blade was once a spren, and meeting the still mobile entity that is your sword are two very different things. 

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Now that we established Maya has to be healing (which we didn't actually), then by extension there must (there doesn't have to be) a reason that is healing her. Perpendicularities cannot heal investiture. But there is that problematic WoB about the dataport being torn out. Not a plug removed. Ripped out, chunky and all. Well investiture cannot come from no where, and the bond cannot create investiture, so by extension there must (there doesn't have to be) a reason to validate that Maya is healing, because Maya has to be healing because she was summoned in less than 7 heartbeats, spoke her name, and defended Adolin. So we must be interpreting that WoB incorrectly, or misunderstanding the process. Let me now think of a process, that is in line with our understanding of the cosmere, that will then validate the supposition that Maya is healing, so then that Maya healing can then support my supposition that she had anything torn out to begin with. Its cyclical. Now you put a lot of work in your theory and you have a great understanding of realmatic theory to support it. But that does not change you draw all of this on a supposition that Maya is healing. A supposition not everyone agrees on. A supposition other people have derived other theories from by interpreting it differently. And the big part? Those theories are just as valid. 

Frankly, I don't care if you or anyone else agrees. Off of everything that we have been shown throughout the Cosmere as a whole, I think this explanation is the most realmatically sound. It fits all of the points we know, not just those about spren and Shardblades. 

I am. Not stating it as fact. I have repeatedly said I think, I believe, and in my opinion. I am not invalidating anyone else's opinion, just disagreeing. If you choose to be defensive because I am confident, that is not my problem. 

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

1. Adolin living the oaths, and talking to Maya strengthens/insulated his Connection (capital C) of the faux bond to Maya

2. The bond is crucial because it provides the scaffolding for the infusion of investiture. The strength of the Connection is crucial because it will need to maintain during the massive infusion of investiture

3. The inclusion of a Bondsmith is crucial because it is written in their entire power set about bringing things together, soul, mind, and body. This is validated by Dalinar's actions and by the Stormfather's own words. 

4. This experience would cause Dalinar and Adolin to work closely together for an extended period of time on an extremely personal and emotional endeavor to Adolin. To me I think that takes nothing away from Adolin and if anything adds a ton of growth and depth. 

I did read your previous posts, and guess they just don't add up to me. It feels too much like invalidating the relationship that has been built between Adolin and his blade and turning it into "a Bondsmith can fix it." 

As to the assertion that I'm reinterpreting the wetwear WoB to fit my theory... No. What I've said does not contradict it in any way, it just does not proscribe to the assumption that what was ripped out was Investiture. 

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

But that is just my own theory that I think holds up most to me. All our theories can co-exist and we can all prefer our own theories and discuss them without making others feel like they are wrong and I am right. That is why I feel some people on this thread take issue with the way you and CrazyRioter present your theory. it is not fact, and it is not the only valid one out there. You think it is because the reasons work best for you. 

You take it to mean that I'm attempting to put others down and lift myself up. That isn't the case. I expect my theories to be questioned and prodded. I expect to do the same to others. I have been wrong many times, and will be again, but when we share theories we subject them to scrutiny. 

That is the entire point of theory discussion.

Whether I convince anyone of my theory or not is irrelevant. And regardless of what you may think, I have had my mind changed to theories that I once disagreed with multiple times because of supporting evidence and well thought out argumentation. 

You may not enjoy the style with which I discuss things here, but I am by no means saying everyone else is wrong and I am right. Just that with the evidence we have, this is how I see it. 

Edited February 8, 2019 by Calderis

[Pathfinder]

@Calderis

Maya summoned in under the normal 10 heartbeats. We have a WoB that the further away you are from the spren in the cognitive realm, the longer it takes to summon it via heartbeats. The example given was going off planet, since a dead spren could not follow in that case, and the distance would result in a few heartbeat difference. To me if a heartbeat difference could be seen when you are further away from a spren, then theoretically a heartbeat difference could be seen if you are closer to the spren. The realms were brought together when Adolin summoned Maya in 7 heartbeats, so theoretically they were closer then. Also when Adolin was first in the cognitive realm, he goes to summon his shardblade. Maya immediately looks at him, raises her hand, and begins to scream. He is the closest to her he could possibly be, and when he goes to summon her, she responds immediately. Does that mean she healed a whole bunch then? The heartbeats are down to 0. So if reducing the heartbeats to summon a shardblade means she is healing, then why did she go to needing 0 heartbeats then, but go back to needing more when he came out into the physical realm? You do not think that response works. Fine, I respect that, but it still is a valid point, and one that can exist without Maya healing. 

Except if it were the distance mechanic, which is based of of the speed of light, then the ten heartbeat limit should be beaten regularly, and as I said above, if it were a result of the perpendicularity it should have been consistent. Instead it was shown to happen at a time of need, as if it were a result of a choice and effort on Maya's part.

And as seen with Syl and pattern, a shardblade can't be summoned in the Cognitive Realm, so that line of reason bears no weight. 

So first, whew today was a long day. Finally caught up, and now I can respond! For my own ease of response, I will bold and blue my responses so I can go point by point. I know I could attempt to quote your post multiple times, but frankly this is just easier for me. Hopefully it posts nicely, and is readily readable. Now to begin.

I need a little clarity on this statement. Are you saying that the ten heart beat limit would be beaten in that it should take longer all the time, or that because it is based on the speed of light then there would be no variation in heartbeats? If it is the former, then my response is the only spren we know of that is not right by its shardbearer is Ico’s father. He locked him away so he wouldn’t wander off to be by its shardbearer like he said all dead spren do. So since we know for a fact all dead spren do all they can to be by where their bonded shardbearer is, then it is not a stretch that normally we would not see a difference until something unique happens, such as going to another planet where a dead spren cannot follow, or bringing the realms closer together. Brandon said being further away where Ico’s father is trapped would be an effect but not that much of an effect. For all we know that could be a half a heart beat longer which isn’t noticeable. Until of course something bigger happens, like for instance going to another planet, which the difference would be so vastly noticeable because it would be so dramatic to take three years. If your statement is regarding the latter, then I refer once more to the WoB where Brandon clearly states a time difference would occur based on distance.

Now as an aside, you seem to be continually misunderstanding this. I have two separate arguments. One is where I present why YOUR (capitalized not because of yelling, but because trying to call attention to, but since I have bolded all of my comments and blued it to denote response for ease of break down, I need another means to show emphasis) theory does not work for me, providing reasons that break the line of causation your theory is based on which leads me to not prescribe to it. Separate from that is my own theory. My own theory does not maintain that the perpendicularity is the reason for Maya responding. My own theory postulates that Maya’s response is due to Adolin strengthening his Connection to her in the faux bond. However, the point I made about distance would dispute my claim just as much as it disputes yours. I cannot conclusively prove that my theory regarding Connection being the cause of Maya’s response is the more accurate one, because there exists other perfectly valid rationales that counter it. Which is why at this point it becomes more a Read and Find Out, but fun to postulate about till then. That is why when I responded listing the reasons your theory doesn’t work for me, I made sure to make clear I was doing it to illustrate, not attack. Your theory has excellent points. Just they are not conclusive, and I feel there are enough questions that my theory fits more for me

  9 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Maya communicates her name to Adolin. Dalinar hears oathbringer whimper instead of scream. The stormfather says it is because oathbringer remembers the oaths Dalinar made and broke so it hates him less. One could reply well Dalinar hears it because he is a radiant. But the supposition says Maya communicating with Adolin shows healing because it is a sign of improvement. That improvement is the product of the bond between Adolin and Maya. Oathbringer is showing these signs by not screaming as much. Yet it is not bonded to Dalinar anymore. If anything the bond was broken, and then bonded to Sadeas. If the bond is necessary in order to heal and improve a spren, then why didn't Oathbringers "improvement" retard when Dalinar severed the bond? If living the oaths while bonded to the dead spren blade is crucial to reviving it, then why didn't Sadeas bonding Oathbringer make Oathbringer worse? If your reply is that the healing cannot be reversed, then we go back to the point a made a few pages back. Then why over the thousands of years since the Recreance and the significant number of generations, couldn't multiple shardbearers live the oaths enough each time, to heal a shard blade bit by bit by bit till it came back? Why is only Adolin the very first? Especially when we see Dalinar experience the same thing?

Dalinar is not experiencing the same thing. Contact with a person who has an active Nahel bond creates a sort of resonance that pushes a spren closer to life. This is why Relis heard his blade speak when Kaladin touched it in the dueling arena. 

Oathbringer was bonded to his soul, and because of that has connection to him that though his bond has been severed, is still there shallowly, his touch with a Nahel bond awakens those memories. 

Adolin has no such bond with a living spren to create that effect. 

As to why Adolin is the first, I think it precisely because he is the first person to meet their blade in the Cognitive. He has been forced to see the blade as more than just a weapon. Knowing the blade was once a spren, and meeting the still mobile entity that is your sword are two very different things. 

See? Again with asserting things as fact. Please show me verifiable references from the book or WoB that state conclusively that Dalinar could not be experiencing the same thing. You didn’t say “I think Dalinar is not experiencing the same thing”. You didn’t say “It is my opinion that Dalinar is not experiencing the same thing. You said “Dalinar is not experiencing the same thing” full stop. Again, where in the book or WoB does it conclusively say “Contact with a person with an active Nahel bond pushes a spren closer to life”. We do know it takes 10 heartbeats for a shardblade to be summoned. We know it is termed to be “reviving” the dead spren temporarily when you summon them as a shardblade. We do know a radiant can hear a shardblade scream when touching it, and if a person is also holding it, they also hear the scream, but I have not heard nor read any confirmation that conclusively states it is because the radiant’s presence that brings it more to life. Maybe if you clarify your statement? I see instances that you could interpret as signs of this, but I certainly do not see any verifiable and conclusive evidence that makes such an assertion applicable, assuming you are asserting what I think you are asserting. If the nahel bond pushes a spren closer to life, then why does it function as it does? Why does the effect not remain in place? Why can’t a radiant just hold onto a dead spren blade really long, and that be how it is brought back to life? Doesn’t that occur with Renarin? He had a shardblade while being bonded to a radiant spren and he held it for the requisite time period to bond it, and even more so. So why is a radiant touching a shardblade returning it to life briefly, but for Adolin it is a continual effect? Why for Adolin is it a continual effect that will result in permanence with revival? Please elaborate on your statement.

So now you are saying the reason the blade is reviving is because he spoke to it in person? How does that not negate all the time he spent speaking to it and acting honorably before hand? If he never ended up in the cognitive realm, are you saying he would have never been able to revive Maya? For me that sounds more far fetched. The shear chances that Adolin would end up in the right place at the right time and act the right way during that time to result in Maya starting to awaken is a bit much to me. But that is why it doesn’t sit right for me. I readily realize and respect it could work for you. Please confirm that is what you meant by that statement as well.

  9 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Now that we established Maya has to be healing (which we didn't actually), then by extension there must (there doesn't have to be) a reason that is healing her. Perpendicularities cannot heal investiture. But there is that problematic WoB about the dataport being torn out. Not a plug removed. Ripped out, chunky and all. Well investiture cannot come from no where, and the bond cannot create investiture, so by extension there must (there doesn't have to be) a reason to validate that Maya is healing, because Maya has to be healing because she was summoned in less than 7 heartbeats, spoke her name, and defended Adolin. So we must be interpreting that WoB incorrectly, or misunderstanding the process. Let me now think of a process, that is in line with our understanding of the cosmere, that will then validate the supposition that Maya is healing, so then that Maya healing can then support my supposition that she had anything torn out to begin with. Its cyclical. Now you put a lot of work in your theory and you have a great understanding of realmatic theory to support it. But that does not change you draw all of this on a supposition that Maya is healing. A supposition not everyone agrees on. A supposition other people have derived other theories from by interpreting it differently. And the big part? Those theories are just as valid. 

Frankly, I don't care if you or anyone else agrees. Off of everything that we have been shown throughout the Cosmere as a whole, I think this explanation is the most realmatically sound. It fits all of the points we know, not just those about spren and Shardblades. 

I am. Not stating it as fact. I have repeatedly said I think, I believe, and in my opinion. I am not invalidating anyone else's opinion, just disagreeing. If you choose to be defensive because I am confident, that is not my problem. 

And that is great, you are perfectly entitled to not give one wit what I think. For me at the end of the day, it is important to demonstrate when something is conclusive versus inconclusive. I was pointing out your assertions were not entirely accurate in the way they were presented. If you wish to ascribe an emotion to me, that is your right to do so, though personally I fail to see how I have acted in such a manner.

  9 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

1. Adolin living the oaths, and talking to Maya strengthens/insulated his Connection (capital C) of the faux bond to Maya

2. The bond is crucial because it provides the scaffolding for the infusion of investiture. The strength of the Connection is crucial because it will need to maintain during the massive infusion of investiture

3. The inclusion of a Bondsmith is crucial because it is written in their entire power set about bringing things together, soul, mind, and body. This is validated by Dalinar's actions and by the Stormfather's own words. 

4. This experience would cause Dalinar and Adolin to work closely together for an extended period of time on an extremely personal and emotional endeavor to Adolin. To me I think that takes nothing away from Adolin and if anything adds a ton of growth and depth. 

I did read your previous posts, and guess they just don't add up to me. It feels too much like invalidating the relationship that has been built between Adolin and his blade and turning it into "a Bondsmith can fix it." 

As to the assertion that I'm reinterpreting the wetwear WoB to fit my theory... No. What I've said does not contradict it in any way, it just does not proscribe to the assumption that what was ripped out was Investiture. 

I respect how you feel. Personally I feel it would not be a Bondsmith fixing it if, in my opinion, the theory requires both parties to be involved. But to each their own.

I didn’t say you were reinterpreting the WoB. I said you started from an supposition. You then formulated a means for that supposition to be realmatically sound. That does not negate your theory, nor indicate it is wrong. All it does is denote the process. Conversely, if I were to formulate a theory that is based on shardblades cutting through stone, then that would be starting with a verifiable fact. We have numerous statements that support that. We have numerous examples that back that up. Everyone can agree that a shardblade cuts through stone. Everyone on the other hand does not agree that Maya is healing. I respect that you do not prescribe to my theory. I wish you luck with your own.

  9 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

But that is just my own theory that I think holds up most to me. All our theories can co-exist and we can all prefer our own theories and discuss them without making others feel like they are wrong and I am right. That is why I feel some people on this thread take issue with the way you and CrazyRioter present your theory. it is not fact, and it is not the only valid one out there. You think it is because the reasons work best for you. 

You take it to mean that I'm attempting to put others down and lift myself up. That isn't the case. I expect my theories to be questioned and prodded. I expect to do the same to others. I have been wrong many times, and will be again, but when we share theories we subject them to scrutiny. 

I never said you were belittling others. I said you were misrepresenting your perspective. There is a difference.

That is the entire point of theory discussion.

Whether I convince anyone of my theory or not is irrelevant. And regardless of what you may think, I have had my mind changed to theories that I once disagreed with multiple times because of supporting evidence and well thought out argumentation. 

Exactly. And that was never my issue. I never asked you to convince me. I never expected to convince you. You have your well thought out reasons for your theory. I just take issue with the way you presented them.

You may not enjoy the style with which I discuss things here, but I am by no means saying everyone else is wrong and I am right. Just that with the evidence we have, this is how I see it. 

And that is great and I wish you luck with your theory!