Moash & Kaladin: two different paths?

[Benedictify]

I've been thinking that Moash and Kaladin are maybe a bit like opposites; they were in a similar situation -- being in the bridge crews after tragedy befalling them or their families -- and Moash clings to revenge and he has that singular focus, while Kaladin turns away from revenge and arrives at the realization "I will protect even those I hate." (Speaking of which; isn't that such a totally mind-blowing statement?? I don't know if I could do that.) 

It seemed to me like they arrived at a similar crossroads and took opposite paths. Turning aside from selfish concerns to selfless ones.

Thoughts?

[Eris]

It is exactly the case. The only reason why they both didn't go down the same path is Kaladin was brought up to help people even when they wanted to bring him or others around him down. Moash sounds like he didn't have that and was left to keep his anger festering

[+Invocation]

They are indeed foils. Moash is exactly what Kaladin would have been if he had dwelled and not learned to let go. Kaladin grew up, Moash didn't. Now we all see the difference, and Moash kind of realizes it himself, with the way he regrets everything. (Honestly I think Moash deserves it, but hey. That's just me)

[CrazyRioter]

All Moash's current problems are his own fault.

[+Invocation]

2 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

All Moash's current problems are his own fault.

I agree immensely, which is what gave rise to the last portion of my signature.

[Toaster Retribution]

Yup, that is the case. It seems like Brandon likes working with foils for SA. Amaram also mirrored Dalinars arc in OB really well, I suspect we will see more mirror arcs as time goes on. Its a really exciting way to tell a story.

[Eris]

I wonder if Jasnah and Renarin are character foils? Because of the line where Jasnah said that people said the same things about her as they Renarin. 

[Vissy]

While I hate Moash, I'm not going to say that it's all his fault or that he and Kaladin are the same. They're not; they're quite different people. Kaladin had the benefit of a loving family, Moash had that ripped away from him. That's already a HUGE difference between them and their respective childhoods, and the smallest of differences can end up being the deciding factor in what you choose to do in your life. Sometimes, you don't really have a choice (or don't feel that you have), both of which are outside of your control. Odium is also just kind of mind controlling Moash by this point.

Anyway, personally Moash is not a convincing foil to Kaladin for a couple of reasons. First, their paths are not divergent, in fact they were never treading the same path at all. Second, Moash is obviously completely beaten down - to the point where he allowed himself to be essentially mind-controlled! And third, the concept of "foils" is asinine to begin with. Why do characters need foils? Why can't everyone just be their own character with their own motivations with no need for this black-and-white comparison?

Edited January 11, 2019 by Vissy

[Toaster Retribution]

3 minutes ago, Eris said:

I wonder if Jasnah and Renarin are character foils? Because of the line where Jasnah said that people said the same things about her as they Renarin. 

Possible. There are different kinds of foils though. The Dalinar/Amaram and Kaladin/Moash has one protagonist and one antagonist, so if we are having similar stuff to that, then we might see Jasnah/Mraize or something of that sort. Or Renarin and Jasnah might end up mirroring each other perfectly, who knows?

[Quantus]

4 hours ago, Vissy said:

While I hate Moash, I'm not going to say that it's all his fault or that he and Kaladin are the same. They're not; they're quite different people. Kaladin had the benefit of a loving family, Moash had that ripped away from him. That's already a HUGE difference between them and their respective childhoods, and the smallest of differences can end up being the deciding factor in what you choose to do in your life. Sometimes, you don't really have a choice (or don't feel that you have), both of which are outside of your control. Odium is also just kind of mind controlling Moash by this point.

I dont know if I would go that far, Moash was a working adult by the time his grandparents were killed, at a similar timeframe to when Kaladin left for the army.  It's not like he had the oppressive and unsupportive family life that Shallan did, which even Kaladin noted (in the Chasm) was brutal.

 

Personally I think Moash is likely to end up bonding a Voidspren and becoming a Windrunner equivalent.  Not sure I have much to support that theory, beyond the expectation that there will be another confrontation between the two.  There is too much left unresolved between then (on both sides).

 

[king of nowhere]

5 hours ago, Vissy said:

While I hate Moash, I'm not going to say that it's all his fault or that he and Kaladin are the same. They're not; they're quite different people.

Seconded. Moash was always angry and hateful. he never cared about protecting anyone. Kaladin was never truly hateful, for all his lighteys angst

[Subvisual Haze]

10 hours ago, Invocation said:

They are indeed foils. Moash is exactly what Kaladin would have been if he had dwelled and not learned to let go. Kaladin grew up, Moash didn't. Now we all see the difference, and Moash kind of realizes it himself, with the way he regrets everything. (Honestly I think Moash deserves it, but hey. That's just me)

No, I'd say Moash currently is more the archetypical shadow of Kaladin's personality.

In Jungian thought the shadow archetype is everything we dislike and suppress of our personality.  It still lingers in our unconscious thought and can peak out in moments of great psychological stress.  We tend to deny its existence (because it makes us realize that part of our personality is not as nice and kind as we like to imagine ourselves), and often project these exact faulty characteristics onto others during conflict.

We've seen Kaladin's shadow present itself already.  Mostly during his hopeless early weeks as a bridge slave, but also after his extended bout in prison.  Depression and emotional burnout bring it to the surface for him.  Instead of being proactive he followed orders, believing himself to be ultimately powerless to change the world.  He became apathetic to the suffering of those around him because he couldn't deal with it (burnout).  Anger for vengeance became especially prominent.

That's also why I believe Moash has a clear potential to redeem himself.  He's in a dark state of mind and has made bad choices but at his core he's not an evil or sadistic person.  He needs someone to help him find hope again like Syl did for Kaladin.

People tend to willingly forget: back in Way of Kings Moash actually spoke up for Dalinar as an honorable lighteyes.  This was during the scene where Dalinar attacked Listener archers who were about to attack Bridge 4 and then saluted them.  It was Kaladin who convinced Moash that all lighteyes should be regarded as evil.  Sure Kaladin eventually came around and changed his mind on this, but he still bears some responsibility for encouraging that particular dark aspect of Moash's character.

[Vissy]

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

I dont know if I would go that far, Moash was a working adult by the time his grandparents were killed, at a similar timeframe to when Kaladin left for the army.  It's not like he had the oppressive and unsupportive family life that Shallan did, which even Kaladin noted (in the Chasm) was brutal.

 

Personally I think Moash is likely to end up bonding a Voidspren and becoming a Windrunner equivalent.  Not sure I have much to support that theory, beyond the expectation that there will be another confrontation between the two.  There is too much left unresolved between then (on both sides).

 

On top of losing his parents at a very young age, Moash then went on to lose the last bits of what he had left when his grandparents were murdered. You can't compare his situation with Shallan's - they are entirely different. What are you trying to say by way of this impossible comparison?

[Greywatch]

I'd say Kaladin and Moash are definitely foils - a great point, op! I also saw an interesting post a ways back that Moash and Amaram are the dark reflection of Kaladin and Dalinar. Given the similar circumstances and choices, the opposite choices that Kaladin/Moash and Dalinar/Amaram make, I absolutely agree they're meant to contrast against each other. Kaladin and Dalinar consistently make the harder but better choice, even though it costs them. Moash and Amaram make the easier choice, borne out of their negative feelings - understandable but still villainous.

[Quantus]

15 minutes ago, Vissy said:

On top of losing his parents at a very young age, Moash then went on to lose the last bits of what he had left when his grandparents were murdered. You can't compare his situation with Shallan's - they are entirely different. What are you trying to say by way of this impossible comparison?

I wasnt saying his situation was similar to Shallan's at all, quite the opposite.  I was saying his situation was a lot less different from Kaladin's than you were implying, that Moash was raise by (it sounds like) very loving and supportive grandparents up to the time he left to start travelling, at a similar age to when Kaladin left to join the army.  You seemed to be implying that Moash's childhood was a lot more horrible that I believe it was, more akin to shallan's full-time nightmare.   

But at the end of the day, if you fundamentally disagree with Foils as a literary tool, we probably arent going to get very far on this topic. 

[Vissy]

2 hours ago, Greywatch said:

I'd say Kaladin and Moash are definitely foils - a great point, op! I also saw an interesting post a ways back that Moash and Amaram are the dark reflection of Kaladin and Dalinar. Given the similar circumstances and choices, the opposite choices that Kaladin/Moash and Dalinar/Amaram make, I absolutely agree they're meant to contrast against each other. Kaladin and Dalinar consistently make the harder but better choice, even though it costs them. Moash and Amaram make the easier choice, borne out of their negative feelings - understandable but still villainous.

That depends *entirely* on your perspective. How is Moash choosing to go against everyone he thought of as comrade in a quest for vengeance any easier than Kaladin submitting to his duties and choosing to stay with his friends? This is exactly the type of thinking I'm referring to when I say that the "foil" thing is asinine. It's so black & white and easy.

I don't disagree with foils as a literary tool, but I think the way it is being portrayed here is the type of foil that can only be called 'lazy writing'. These characters aren't mirror images of each other. Moash isn't Dark Kaladin.

Edited January 11, 2019 by Vissy

[Greywatch]

5 minutes ago, Vissy said:

That depends *entirely* on your perspective. How is Moash choosing to go against everyone he thought of as comrade in a quest for vengeance any easier than Kaladin submitting to his duties and choosing to stay with his friends? This is exactly the type of thinking I'm referring to when I say that the "foil" thing is asinine. It's so black & white and easy.

I don't disagree with foils as a literary tool, but I think the way it is being portrayed here is the type of foil that can only be called 'lazy writing'. These characters aren't mirror images of each other. Moash isn't Dark Kaladin.

I guess we'll disagree, then, and that's all there is to it. I see something real and legitimate in this analysis, and I certainly don't find it either black-and-white or asinine.

(Asinine is a word I feel we should veer away from, as it's difficult not to construe it as an insult. We can see that calling an argument "stupid" or "dumb" would be obviously considered insulting, and asinine is the same definition. Even if we feel very strongly about something, it's something we can do to be respectful of other people on the forum.)

[Kon-Tiki]

I looked up the definition of foil and got this: "a person or thing that contrasts with and so emphasizes and enhances the qualities of another"

I don't think Moash has to be as simple as "Dark Kaladin" to qualify as a foil character. They come from somewhat similar (but certainly not the same) places. They both went through Bridge Four. They were both deeply wronged by many of the same people, both in ways that cost them people they loved. I don't think digging into the gritty details of those things disqualify Moash as being a foil. His choices post-Bridge Four contrast with Kaladin's, and so emphasize and enhance our understanding of Kaladin's post-Bridge Four character.