Jasnah Theory

[Eris she/her]

2 hours ago, Dalakaar said:

I agree, her having a problem with the ardents has to be handled delicately as I believe her receiving abuse from them could cheapen her stance against the church. It can't be too much of a cop-out for her beliefs. They still could technically abuse her, but with the best of intentions.(Ie. locking her in a dark room yet under the full and honest belief that it is helping her.) Giving her a legitimate reason for an initial break from the church but not cheapening her questioning as a victim.

The plot-line of her atheism (for lack of a better word) and Dalinar's heresies has interested me quite a bit. I wonder how close to home it is for Brandon.

This sounds about right. Jasnah wouldn’t let herself be a victim or easily swayed by another opinion so not having is “cheapened” would allow the plot line to evolve into something ideal. 

Note. When I said practiced what they preach I meant something along the lines of they said they’d help her but didn’t. I just couldn’t think of how to describe it. 

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

@Joy You could tell me for certain(with knowledge of modern science) that locking someone in a dark room won't help, but the ardents(with medieval tech level) couldn't say for certain. They believed they were helping Taln.

@DalakaarThanks for summing that up better than I could!

@ErisI wasn't upset! I see what you meant now, and am sorry if I sounded... accusatory? 

[Eris she/her]

1 minute ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

 

@ErisI wasn't upset! I see what you meant now, and am sorry if I sounded... accusatory? 

It's all g! I usually write so fast along with my dyslexia, I dont often make sense but when I do make sense. That is a good day. 

[Joy she/her]

@Steel Inquisitive Someone in this thread said they weren't sure whether locking mentally ill people in dark rooms was helpful or not, and I was responding specifically to that person. I agree with you that some ardents would perceive their actions as helpful. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if some of them just wanted mentally ill people "out of the way," so to speak, since the stigma against mental illness seems to exist on Roshar much as it exists on Earth.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

3 hours ago, Dalakaar said:

The plot-line of her atheism (for lack of a better word) and Dalinar's heresies has interested me quite a bit. I wonder how close to home it is for Brandon.

I don’t know if you know this already, but Brandon is Mormon, so I doubt he’s experienced something like what Jasnah’s experienced.

However, if you meant if Brandon has experienced something like Dalinar’s questioning of faith, I’m sure he has. He seems the type to not just take the word of his teachers and really learn and think for himself about the religion.

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

@JoyIt was me I was just clarifying a little bit. I did some research and YIKES! 

I really want good, faith-filled people in one of Brandon's books..... He seems to really like the evil religion concept..... and universalism...(I know he's Mormon.)

[Dalakaar he/him]

1 hour ago, StrikerEZ said:

I don’t know if you know this already, but Brandon is Mormon, so I doubt he’s experienced something like what Jasnah’s experienced.

However, if you meant if Brandon has experienced something like Dalinar’s questioning of faith, I’m sure he has. He seems the type to not just take the word of his teachers and really learn and think for himself about the religion.

I did know. I was raised in a very christian family myself and know the stigma of even just reading things like Fantasy or watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Let alone being in a leadership position and writing these things. I have been curious if he's ever come under fire from his fellow Mormons. Not something that would be made public record so I doubt I'll ever have the truth of it. Albeit I know how things work behind the scenes in organized religions... I guess the simple fact is, I don't doubt he could have been under scrutiny very similar to what Jasnah has been through. Not exactly the same, but enough to want to write about it. I'm not saying he has, I'm just saying it wouldn't surprise me. There's a lot of stuff that gets swept under the rug. (I have personal experience with this, a lot actually.)

The difference could simply be he chose to stick with his religion as opposed to not. (Likely because he strikes me the same way as you. He probably questioned it and came to satisfactory answers for himself.)

[Joy she/her]

@Steel Inquisitive Whoops! Haha.

And I'd say Dalinar is probably an example of a good, faith-fueled person. The fact that he's at odds with his religious establishment doesn't cancel out his faith in a God.

[Eris she/her]

1 hour ago, Joy said:

@Steel Inquisitive Whoops! Haha.

And I'd say Dalinar is probably an example of a good, faith-fueled person. The fact that he's at odds with his religious establishment doesn't cancel out his faith in a God.

I grew up in a religious setting and had most of it (metaphorically) beaten out of me but it is the small bits of kindness from others along with my belief that I can't be alone that doesn't lead me to atheism. I feel like Dalinar is like this without the (metaphorical) beating, he like Jasnah was shown proof that maybe everything they told is correct, to no ones error and were given the choice to think. Dalinar because of the society doesn't really explain or ponder too much on this questioning but Jasnah fully does. 

Jasnah isn't afraid to speak her mind and prove others wrong when they are so imagine young Jasnah doing what Dalinar is doing now. Dalinar is pretty much saying stop believing the old as tradition when I have proof that it is wrong. Jasnah would undoubtedly be considered crazy and locked up.

Half way through writing this I realised, maybe Dalinar is a foil to what happened to Jasnah. Showing that no matter who you are, if you're disagreeing with Vorinism, you are seen as crazy. 

[SwordNimiForPresident he/him]

I can't help but wonder if it has something to do with assassins or an assassination attempt in some way. During the PoV that was brought up several times in this thread Jasnah was on her way to meet with an assassin with whom she had a working relationship. Maybe its just a normal part of noble life to constantly be feeling out the local assassins, but its the only instance of it that we see in the books. I don't know if this is supposed to be relevant to the story or if its simply a plot device to put her in a position to confront Ivory.

[Joy she/her]

11 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I can't help but wonder if it has something to do with assassins or an assassination attempt in some way. During the PoV that was brought up several times in this thread Jasnah was on her way to meet with an assassin with whom she had a working relationship. Maybe its just a normal part of noble life to constantly be feeling out the local assassins, but its the only instance of it that we see in the books. I don't know if this is supposed to be relevant to the story or if its simply a plot device to put her in a position to confront Ivory.

Oh, I'm sure it will come up again. In Oathbringer, Jasnah contemplates assassinating Amaram. I expect to see more of this when she becomes more of a main character.

[Philomath she/her]

15 hours ago, Dalakaar said:

I did know. I was raised in a very christian family myself and know the stigma of even just reading things like Fantasy or watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Let alone being in a leadership position and writing these things. I have been curious if he's ever come under fire from his fellow Mormons. Not something that would be made public record so I doubt I'll ever have the truth of it. Albeit I know how things work behind the scenes in organized religions... I guess the simple fact is, I don't doubt he could have been under scrutiny very similar to what Jasnah has been through. Not exactly the same, but enough to want to write about it. I'm not saying he has, I'm just saying it wouldn't surprise me. There's a lot of stuff that gets swept under the rug. (I have personal experience with this, a lot actually.)

The difference could simply be he chose to stick with his religion as opposed to not. (Likely because he strikes me the same way as you. He probably questioned it and came to satisfactory answers for himself.)

There is just one thing I want to clarify about this. Mormons while we have our quirks, are typically not opposed to fantasy, vampires, witches, and the like. Brandon would most definitely not be under fire for writing well written characters with a variety of religious beliefs and differing levels of faith and questioning. In fact, he teaches at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (full name for the Mormon or LDS church) owned university and his books are sold and promoted there. As an active member myself, I can say that his approach to religion and truly questioning and seeking answers about God and religion is one of my favorite aspects of Brandon’s books. Dalinar and Sazed are 2 of my favorite characters. And Legion: Skin Deep spoilers

Spoiler

His scientific speech about “infinite Batman’s” is one of my favorite things ever written.

I am sorry for experiences you have had and am fine with whatever decisions and choices you have made. I hope this comes across as respectful because I really am trying to be. I just wanted to clear up that I don’t think Brandon has had any personal religious problems because he is a phenomenal author. 

[Quantus he/him]

One possibility with Jasnah might be that she was simply labeled some form of "insane" while still young simply for having the audacity to challenge social conventions as strongly as she did, along with generally being misunderstood by most of those around her for being unusually intelligent even at an early age (per Navani).  This was disturbingly common in earth societies 100+ years ago.  That being said, it makes a bit less sense for Roshar than it would for an earth-based historical fiction given that women all buy Own the intellectual and scholarly pursuits on Roshar, so the more male-pedjudice dominating sort of treatment theories would likely gain less footing. Though Navani doesnt seem the sort to cling to such thing so much that she'd let it harm (or even heavily stifle) her children, so while I could see it happening in Rosahran and/or Alethi High Society, I dont really see it happening to the Kholin's.

Re: a possible assault, I'd think Navani would have been present to listen and believe her if it were something as un-superantural as an assault (even by a powerful Lighteyes).  If there had been any form of assault, even by somebody close to her, it would be something Id think she'd be able to tell Navani, and Navani would not let social status keep her from ENDING somebody who harmed her children. 

Id think seeing Spren, Shadesmar, or something similarly inexplicable would be more the sort of thing to drive her batty, both because her very rational mind would struggle to explain it and because for that reason she'd be less likely to confide in anyone at all.

[Greywatch she/her]

The thing about that is that Jasnah refers to it as a time when she couldn't trust her own mind. She doesn't think of it as a time that she was betrayed or lost trust in other people; it was herself. That's why I don't believe her lunacy episode is going to be the result of someone else doing something to her.

[Eris she/her]

3 hours ago, Greywatch said:

The thing about that is that Jasnah refers to it as a time when she couldn't trust her own mind. She doesn't think of it as a time that she was betrayed or lost trust in other people; it was herself. That's why I don't believe her lunacy episode is going to be the result of someone else doing something to her.

This pretty much throws the assault theory out the window. As a lot of people have mentioned, the most likely possibility is the too intelligent ect theory 

[Philomath she/her]

5 hours ago, Greywatch said:

The thing about that is that Jasnah refers to it as a time when she couldn't trust her own mind. She doesn't think of it as a time that she was betrayed or lost trust in other people; it was herself. That's why I don't believe her lunacy episode is going to be the result of someone else doing something to her.

 

1 hour ago, Eris said:

This pretty much throws the assault theory out the window. As a lot of people have mentioned, the most likely possibility is the too intelligent ect theory 

Agreed here. I was never opposed to the assault theory nor do I think it is a topic that should be avoided if it fits the story and character. But the fact that Jasnah views it as something wrong with her head does make external influences and events seem less likely. Do we know how old Jasnah was at the time of her “lunacy?” My best guess is around 10. I know Jasnah is like crazy intelligent and basically always has been, but I still think just being unusually intelligent would be a weird thing to call someone a lunatic for. Especially a child. 

[giveuptheghost]

Sexual assaults are alluded to pretty blatantly in the beginning chapters of Mistborn, so I don't know that Brandon would steer clear of it. I also think for someone as controlling as Jasnah, it could trigger a lot of self-blame and that could be tied into her not trusting her own mind. 

Not saying I really think it will go that way. I am more inclined to agree with it being an entirely internal thing, but I don't think sexual assault should be ruled out as a possibility. It's a delicate topic, but an important one. I think it is important to consider how common it is and how many people have to overcome that sort of thing in their lives. And Jasnah is definitely a strong and facinating character by the time we meet her in these stories and knowing that she came through it all could be very inspiring for people.

I just dislike when people write off those types of stories with the attitude that it is just done for drama, or worse, when they feel it "ruins"  the character. 

[+Bliev she/her]

On 1/7/2019 at 7:01 PM, Philomath said:

Agreed here. I was never opposed to the assault theory nor do I think it is a topic that should be avoided if it fits the story and character. But the fact that Jasnah views it as something wrong with her head does make external influences and events seem less likely. Do we know how old Jasnah was at the time of her “lunacy?” My best guess is around 10. I know Jasnah is like crazy intelligent and basically always has been, but I still think just being unusually intelligent would be a weird thing to call someone a lunatic for. Especially a child. 

If her intelligence and logic was leading her toward her atheism, or toward asking questions that challenged the ardents, and the ardentia was so strongly integrated into her father's court, it might be that her questions made them advise Gavilar to have her locked away "for her own good" (which of course really means for the stability of the kingdom). Logical Jasnah may have even eventually come to agree that this was a logical course of action to protect her family's power at some point, but not before screaming for help.

Quote

Jasnah settled back, listening to the three spanreeds scratching paper, writing out notes that—she feared—would mostly be irrelevant. Something stirred deep within her. Glimmers of memory from a dark room, screaming her voice ragged. A childhood illness nobody else seemed to remember, for all it had done to her.

It had taught her that people she loved could still hurt her.

This quote, and the one above re: getting clammy when she saw shadows going the wrong direction, suggests to me that she may have seen those shadows before, and it may have even led to some pretty severe consequences. (Edit: given how much Navani loves her, and how she refers to an "illness", I wouldn't be surprised if that's how Gavilar framed it to people--that she was just "sick" and had to "go away" for awhile.)

Edited February 16, 2019 by Bliev

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

On 1/5/2019 at 8:42 PM, Joy said:

I don't have the book on hand so I don't have an exact quote, but Jasnah justifies her murdering the men in Kharbranth by saying something like "They were planning to rob, kill, and possibly rape us." And the way Jasnah talks about the men makes Shallan wonder, "Who hurt you?" I doubt Brandon would include a line like this unless it contained a grain of truth.

I suspect that Jasnah was sexually assaulted as a child. Her reaction to the event was labeled "insanity," perhaps because it was so out-of-line with her previous behavior, or perhaps because she dared to name her (high-ranking, lighteyed) assailant. Either way, the horrific Alethi method of "treating" mental illness only compounded her trauma.

I see a rape or sexual assault as a strong possibility for Jasnah's youthful malady. What I doubt is that she named her assailant and was rebuffed. She's the flipping princess of the realm under the strongest of all possible kings. The only person on Roshar that could dare to get away with raping an underage princess would be Dalinar and not only does that not fit his character it doesn't fit how Jasnah regards him. It fits Sadeas character but Jasnah's reaction to him isn't one of a person having to work with someone who victimized her. She reacts to Amaram in that fashion but he is no where near important enough to get away with that if she'd told on him.

Conclusion: if she was raped and that's what led to her 'treatment', she never outted her assailant. My opinion only.

On religion:

By no means an expert but I think I've read somewhere that the LDS church has a tradition similar to Jesuits, where interrogating their faith is an encouraged practice, or at least a tolerated one.  I certainly could be dead wrong on this one though.

Edited February 17, 2019 by Bigmikey357

[Pathfinder]

My personal theory, that I am writing more to log that I came up with it so if I end up right I can totally say "ha! called it!" lol is that Jasnah was/is a paranoid schizophrenic. She saw hallucinations, and her family gave her to the ardents to help her. The science of treating those with mental illnesses being archaic at the time, the treatment could result in being far worse than the "disease". That could support Jasnah's suffering and feeling betrayed/hurt by the ones she loves. Realizing she may never get out and end the torture, she begins to focus and use logic to recognize the difference between reality and hallucinations. This leads to her release, and also what begins to draw Ivory to her. I base this reasoning on the story of John Nash Jr. I am not only referring to his movie, but his full biography. He was treated with medication and electroshock therapy that he viewed as torture. He too attempted to manage his paranoid schizophrenia through logic and self control. He had varying degrees of success over the course of his life. This of course this is not a recommendation to avoid medical treatment for schizophrenia in our modern day, and I posit Jasnah's degree of paranoid schizophrenia would be of slightly lesser degree on a spectrum of severity (as in it is not as overwhelming/pronounced as what some cases could be, but also not trivial) which would aid in her gaining control of her perception. Now I also state all of this knowing my entire theory is conjecture. There is very little evidence to draw upon. It is more I took some instances, and used them to piece together what I think is a theory. I just hope I am right!

[insert_anagram_here]

54 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

My personal theory, that I am writing more to log that I came up with it so if I end up right I can totally say "ha! called it!" lol is that Jasnah was/is a paranoid schizophrenic. She saw hallucinations, and her family gave her to the ardents to help her. The science of treating those with mental illnesses being archaic at the time, the treatment could result in being far worse than the "disease". That could support Jasnah's suffering and feeling betrayed/hurt by the ones she loves. Realizing she may never get out and end the torture, she begins to focus and use logic to recognize the difference between reality and hallucinations. This leads to her release, and also what begins to draw Ivory to her. I base this reasoning on the story of John Nash Jr. I am not only referring to his movie, but his full biography. He was treated with medication and electroshock therapy that he viewed as torture. He too attempted to manage his paranoid schizophrenia through logic and self control. He had varying degrees of success over the course of his life. This of course this is not a recommendation to avoid medical treatment for schizophrenia in our modern day, and I posit Jasnah's degree of paranoid schizophrenia would be of slightly lesser degree on a spectrum of severity (as in it is not as overwhelming/pronounced as what some cases could be, but also not trivial) which would aid in her gaining control of her perception. Now I also state all of this knowing my entire theory is conjecture. There is very little evidence to draw upon. It is more I took some instances, and used them to piece together what I think is a theory. I just hope I am right!

Like a mad scientist! I love it! And completely tin foil too!

[Singer she/her]

On 1/6/2019 at 3:08 PM, StrikerEZ said:

I don’t know if you know this already, but Brandon is Mormon, so I doubt he’s experienced something like what Jasnah’s experienced.

However, if you meant if Brandon has experienced something like Dalinar’s questioning of faith, I’m sure he has. He seems the type to not just take the word of his teachers and really learn and think for himself about the religion.

From Brandon's lectures I know part of his inspiration for Jasnah is because he hates "straw man" arguments. He feels strongly that characters should represent views other than the authors in ways that aren't simply bad arguments set up to be knocked down. So while he isn't himself atheist he wanted to make sure Jasnah was a sincere one who didn't exist to be proven wrong. Which is half of why she is so great! The other have being that she is a BA super boss Elsecaller.

And I would hope Brandon, and every person, has questioned what they've been taught and found answers for themselves, just like Jasnah does.

In keeping with the topic at hand I will say that I believe there is some kind of abuse in Jasnah's past, all the theories I've read here are really interesting! And I think we'll see some with ardents treating her for insanity, we'll intentioned as they might be,  but I think we'll also see something with Amaram. Either she witnessed something he did that was horrible or befriended someone who was victimized by him. She just seems to have such strong reactions to him when she interacts with him, very similar to Kaladins. There is a history there that is fraught.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Like a mad scientist! I love it! And completely tin foil too!

Thank you! It just ticks off all the check marks to me

1. it would explain why Jasnah freaks out seeing the shadows moving and thinks "not again". It would be because of her hallucinations when she was a child

2. it would explain why Jasnah fears being unable to trust her mind. Seeing hallucinations would make you question your perceptions, and everything you think to be true

3. it would explain why she was locked away in a dark room, and potentially why that was so painful for her. Being in a dark room gives you plenty of "emptiness" to fill with hallucinations. She wouldn't have anything visually that she could measure against to overcome her hallucinations. 

4. it would explain ivory being attracted to her

5. it would explain why she is so hard on herself and strict with her emotions

So fingers crossed! lol

[+Bliev she/her]

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Thank you! It just ticks off all the check marks to me

1. it would explain why Jasnah freaks out seeing the shadows moving and thinks "not again". It would be because of her hallucinations when she was a child

2. it would explain why Jasnah fears being unable to trust her mind. Seeing hallucinations would make you question your perceptions, and everything you think to be true

3. it would explain why she was locked away in a dark room, and potentially why that was so painful for her. Being in a dark room gives you plenty of "emptiness" to fill with hallucinations. She wouldn't have anything visually that she could measure against to overcome her hallucinations. 

4. it would explain ivory being attracted to her

5. it would explain why she is so hard on herself and strict with her emotions

So fingers crossed! lol

I want to add just a twist to this...that maybe they *thought* she was paranoid schizophrenic (or the cultural equivalent at the time), but really she was seeing/hearing Ivory, or seeing Shadesmar. We know that Shallan bonded Pattern as a child, before the craziest part of her history (i.e., killing her mom and dad), and maybe Jasnah was beginning that process before she knew what it was. And the treatment to "beat" that out of her caused serious trauma. I would love to see a parallel here between her and her ward, Shallan, where they both bonded--or started to bond--their spren early in their childhoods and took different paths to deal with trauma--Shallan going the Lightweaver and hiding the truth route and Jasnah throwing herself into logic. But maybe not. Maybe she didn't start bonding Ivory until that moment in the flashback...hmm. Can't wait to find out!

Edited February 18, 2019 by Bliev

[Scion of the Mists]

14 hours ago, Bliev said:

I want to add just a twist to this...that maybe they *thought* she was paranoid schizophrenic (or the cultural equivalent at the time), but really she was seeing/hearing Ivory, or seeing Shadesmar. We know that Shallan bonded Pattern as a child, before the craziest part of her history (i.e., killing her mom and dad), and maybe Jasnah was beginning that process before she knew what it was. And the treatment to "beat" that out of her caused serious trauma. I would love to see a parallel here between her and her ward, Shallan, where they both bonded--or started to bond--their spren early in their childhoods and took different paths to deal with trauma--Shallan going the Lightweaver and hiding the truth route and Jasnah throwing herself into logic. But maybe not. Maybe she didn't start bonding Ivory until that moment in the flashback...hmm. Can't wait to find out!

We have a fairly recent WoB that Jasnah "definitely beats" Shallan to bonding a spren.  According to the Coppermind, Shallan killed her mom during the same year (1167) as the assassination of Gavilar; however, we know that Shallan had been Surgebinding prior to that.  Therefore, Jasnah must have started prior to the experience at the feast, although it was clearly the first time she met Ivory directly.