Joy

I like it! It kind of reminds me of this WoB: In addition to windspren for Windrunners, I'd guess that the "cousins" are creationspren for Lightweavers, lifespren for Edgedancers, flamespren for Dustbringers, logicspren for Elsecallers, and gloryspren for Bondsmiths. (Not sure about the other orders.) I like the idea that they could have other practical functions besides Shardplate.

We know this isn't the case for Skybreakers—a crusade isn't an acknowledgment of weakness—so I wouldn't be surprised if there are other orders it doesn't work for. I find it particularly unlikely that Edgedancers would say "I'm only going to help the people I can" (in whatever form that takes), since they're all about not abandoning or ignoring people; it seems less like an admission of weakness and more like hypocricy. I like the idea in general, though, and I think it could very well apply to more orders than just the Windrunners. Honestly, I'm not sure about that one. Willshapers are supposed to be capricious and strongheaded. "I will go where I am needed" seems... a little too easy to interpret as just doing what you're told. I'd expect the Second Ideal to create some conflict between individual Willshapers and the people giving them orders, not to mention capture their spark for adventure. On the other hand, "I will go wherever the heck I want and do whatever I feel like doing" isn't much of an oath, so there has to be some balance. Personally, I'm leaning toward "I will explore the unexplored" — but even that feels too formulaic.

That's a good point. All the other Edgedancer oaths have taken the form "I will X the people that nobody else X's," and the Fourth Ideal will likely be the same. I don't think it will be "protect," though—that strikes me as too similar to Windrunners. Maybe one of these? "I will give to those who have been taken from." "I will welcome those who have been abandoned." I'm a bit more inclined toward the second one, since "give" might be a key component of Truthwatcher oaths. Venli bonded a lightspren at the end of Oathbringer, making her a Willshaper. She's also the main character for Book 4, with Eshonai being featured in the flashbacks. (I can't find confirmation that Timbre—who first tried to bond Eshonai, and then bonded Venli—is actually a Willshaper spren, but it makes sense. Eshonai is the "explorer," after all. Plus we know who all the other flashback characters are: Szeth/Skybreaker, Lift/Edgedancer, Renarin/Truthwatcher, Jasnah/Elsecaller, Ash, and Taln. I think it's likely that Ash will end up as a Dustbringer while Taln will remain a Stoneward, which leaves Willshaper for Eshonai and Venli.)

This is something I've given a little thought to recently, and I'm curious to know other people's ideas! Complete Unknowns There are five Orders whose Second Ideal is currently unknown to us. ...or maybe just four, depending on how you count. I strongly suspect that "I will stand when others fall" is the Second Ideal of the Stonewards. The linked WoB is pre-Oathbringer, so it's possible that this is actually a rough draft of "If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man." But this seems unlikely to me; the spoiled oath is basically a fancy way of saying "You can depend on me," and Stonewards' primary attribute is dependability. Willshapers are "resolute" and "builders" (their primary and secondary attributes); the order has described as "capricious, frustrating, unreliable," as well as "the most varied, inconsistent in temperament save for a general love of adventure, novelty, or oddity." Based on this information, here are my (very rough) guesses for the Second Ideal: "I will explore the unexplored." "I will chart the uncharted." "I will go where my heart tells me." "I will go where I am needed." "I will boldly go where no man has gone before." Inkspren, according to Brandon, "do not like how variable humans are... They like people who are logical and willing to think about their lives and not react as much by instinct." Add the fact that Elscallers are "wise" and "careful," and I'm pretty sure their Second Ideal is approximately "I will think before I act." Truthwatchers are "learned" and "giving," and they're broadly concerned with "using knowledge to help people." And... honestly, I have no clue. I can't think of a Second Ideal that meaningfully distinguishes them from Elsecallers, seeing as both fit a "scholarly" archetype—nor can I understand what Renarin, Ym, and the Stump have in common. (The Stump doesn't even strike me as someone who "uses knowledge to help people," though obviously we don't know much about her character.) Finally, we know that Dustbringers are "brave" and "obedient"... and destructive. My two guesses are "I will not run from danger" and "I will destroy only what needs to be destroyed." Missing Pieces There are three Orders for which we're only missing the Fourth and Fifth Ideals. Here are my best guesses. Bondsmiths: Fourth Ideal — "I will lead people forward, even when the way is unclear." (The Third Ideal partially answers the question What are the qualities of a good leader? and I expect the Fourth Ideal to do the same. Besides accountability, another good quality of leaders is decisiveness: they can make decisions under pressure and with incomplete information.) Fifth Ideal — "I will never lose faith." (The primary attribute of Bondsmiths is "pious," and Dalinar has struggled with his faith throughout this entire series.) Windrunners: Fourth Ideal — "I can't protect everyone, but I will protect the people I can." (This one is pretty self-evident, I think, based on Kaladin's unwillingness to let go of Tien and everyone else he's failed to protect. Otherwise I could see something like "I will fight for the living, not the dead.") Fifth Ideal — "I will let others protect me." (This isn't my original idea; I got it from the thread on Kaladin's oaths a few weeks ago.) Edgedancers: Fourth Ideal — "I will help those in need." (This needs refining, as it doesn't feel particularly dramatic or challenging, but the basic idea is... it's one thing to remember people, it's another thing to listen to them, and it's yet another thing to act. Otherwise, it could be similar to the Windrunners' Third Ideal, basically saying "Yes I'm still going to follow my oaths even when it's really hard.") Fifth Ideal — "I will not forget myself." (Self-care! It's important.)

This seems unlikely to me for the 4th Ideal, though it could be the 5th. Kaladin failed to swear the 4th specifically because he couldn't let go of his attachment to Tien (and all the other people he'd failed to protect). I expect the 4th Ideal to be something that explicitly requires Kaladin to let go of Tien—something like "I will fight for the living, not the dead." I'd be very surprised if this isn't the case. To the original question of the thread, I think it's possible that someone else swears the 4th Ideal first, but I really doubt it would happen off-screen. That's way too important a moment to pass up.

Lots of the story happens inside characters' heads and wouldn't directly translate into a TV show. Good acting could help bridge this gap. (Good animation could, too, of course; I'm not saying live action is necessary, just that it's potentially useful.) I personally would love to see some particular scenes in live action—Dalinar's breakdown when he finally remembers the Rift comes to mind.

If The Stormlight Archive ever became a TV series, which would you prefer: animation or live action? I'm curious what people think of this. Personally, I'd rather see the Stormlight Archive as an animated series. A big part of the appeal of Roshar for me is the worldbuilding: the spren, the highstorms, the Surgebinding, the bizarre plants and animals. I think animation would do a much better job of capturing these elements than CGI; it would really convey the magic of the world. On the other hand, live action might be better for character-driven moments, of which the story contains plenty. So I'm a little torn, even though I think I'd ultimately prefer animation.

How much do we know about the chronological order of cosmere stories relative to each other? Obviously Stormlight takes place after Warbreaker; I've also heard that Stormlight takes place somewhere in between Era 1 and Era 2 of Mistborn -- is that true? And where does Elantris fit into everything?

@Ammanas @Sorana As a fan of Avatar: The Last Airbender, I was rather disappointed with The Dragon Prince. But I recently watched the new She-Ra reboot, and...well, it's not Avatar, because nothing is Avatar. But it's a lot closer to Avatar, in terms both of quality of writing and of how much it adheres to the high fantasy genre, than The Dragon Prince is. Some of the early episodes aren't great, but the back half of the season (episodes 8-13) is really good.

Oathbringer's ending was awesome, but I agree with this somewhat. Dalinar's "You cannot have my pain" moment is really, really good, one of my favorite in the whole series, but... prior to that moment, everything was falling apart. For a minute, I actually believed that OB might end on low note, with several characters dead. (I'm pretty sure the heroes will win in the end, but who's to say they can't suffer major losses along the way?) And then Dalinar stands up, swears his Third Ideal, and the tide of battle is suddenly turned. Then, however, it went on and on and on. The suspense kind of faded for me because at that point I knew the heroes would win -- it was just a matter of sorting out the details. Each individual thing about that climax was really cool, but altogether it felt a tad cluttered. Anyway, even though all the climaxes are great, my favorite is probably Way of Kings. I remember yelling "You have a bridge! YOU HAVE A BRIDGE!" at my book after Dalinar was betrayed but before Kaladin was confronted by Syl. I honestly had no clue whether Kaladin would actually save Dalinar -- I scarcely dared to believe -- so I was on the edge of my seat the whole time. And the integration of Tien's death into the scene was heart-wrenching.

Oh, I'm sure it will come up again. In Oathbringer, Jasnah contemplates assassinating Amaram. I expect to see more of this when she becomes more of a main character.

@Steel Inquisitive Whoops! Haha. And I'd say Dalinar is probably an example of a good, faith-fueled person. The fact that he's at odds with his religious establishment doesn't cancel out his faith in a God.

@Watchcry I'm not a hug fan of those kinds of quizzes, but thank you.

@Steel Inquisitive Someone in this thread said they weren't sure whether locking mentally ill people in dark rooms was helpful or not, and I was responding specifically to that person. I agree with you that some ardents would perceive their actions as helpful. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if some of them just wanted mentally ill people "out of the way," so to speak, since the stigma against mental illness seems to exist on Roshar much as it exists on Earth.

Vasher is a scholar, and he berates Vivenna in Warbreaker for not thinking things through clearly -- Elsecaller, perhaps? As for Vivenna herself, I have no idea. I'm definitely excited to see more of Vivenna, though I hope the story is kept accessible to non-cosmere-aware readers. (For what it's worth, I was able to follow along well without having read Warbreaker first. I knew that the stories were connected, I just hadn't read any of them yet, so when I learned they were from another world I thought "Oh, they're from another book" and shrugged it off.)

I'm a little confused why people think Adolin and Shallan getting together is an example of "The prince gets the girl" trope. Yes, Adolin is literally a prince, but he's not the main character -- not by a stretch. I think it would have been significantly more tropey for Kaladin (the closest thing this series has to a "main" main character) to end up with Shallan. And I'm saying this as someone who greatly prefers Shallan/Kaladin to Shallan/Adolin.

Granted! Time has been frozen for you and you alone. It will never start again for as long as you live. I wish my shower was functional.

I thought a little today about the characters from Gravity Falls. Dipper fits perfectly into a scholarly archetype, so I’m guessing he’s an Elsecaller. I should leave open the possibility that he’s a Truthwatcher; it might fit him better once we know more about both orders. Mabel is a Willshaper. Capracious, unreliable, loves adventure? Yeah, that’s Mabel to a T. Wendy is probably a Willshaper, too. Soos is a Skybreaker—a pretty humorous interpretation of a Skybreaker, sure, but he is dedicated to the Pines family. (Spoilers this time because it actually contains major spoilers for the show if you haven’t seen it.)

Granted. You now exist inside a book. After the last page, you cease to exist. I wish I had a pet dragon.

Which order is my favorite? None, they're all cool. Which order would I want to be? I'd be fine with either Gravitation or Abrasion powers, so Windrunner, Skybreaker, Dustbringer, and Edgedancer all work. Which order would I end up in based on my personality? I have no clue. I could be a Lightweaver: I'm very introspective, fairly creative, and mildly repressive. (And if I were a spren, I think I'd be a Cryptic: I have a very logical, mathematical brain, but I'm nevertheless attracted to fiction.) I'm not much of a scholar, but I could be an Elsecaller, since I have a tendency to think rationally (or try to, anyway) before I act -- though on the other hand, this is a piece of my personality that I sometimes actively resist, so maybe not. I could be an Edgedancer: "I will remember those who have been forgotten" and "I will listen to those who have been ignored" are very compelling maxims. I could be Skybreaker. However... This is a cool take on Skybreakers. But funny enough, my biggest moral flaw is following the law. Throughout my childhood, I was unquestioningly obedient to authority (my parents/teachers/etc.), and as a result I developed a snobbish sense of superiority over my peers. That aspect of my personality isn't something I'm proud of, and I'm glad I've changed. While I could, hypothetically, become a Skybreaker, I don't think I'd want to.

I can tell you for certain that locking someone in a dark room is not helpful, and even if that was the only thing the ardents did to Jasnah, it would still be abuse. (But yes, I don't think it has to do with "living how you preach." The Vorin church doesn't claim to represent an all-compassionate God, so lack of compassion on their part isn't necessarily hypocrisy.)

Eh, I've seen better written kids. What's interesting to me is that, for a while, Lift actively resists growing up. Thirteen isn't all that young, but Lift is afraid of moral agency, so she deliberately acts younger than she is. I'd wager that her refusal to listen to Wyndle -- her insistence on calling him a Voidbringer -- is part of her "playing" the role of child.

Generally, I don't want characters to die unless and until they've run their course. I very much don't want Moash to die. I want him to live for many more years. I want him to experience a pervasive sense of emptiness. I want him to wonder, "Why? I avenged my grandparents. Why do I feel so unsatisfied?" And then I want one of two things to happen: either Moash turns his life around, or -- Rayse having been killed by this point, but not Shattered -- Moash Ascends into Odium. I think Taravangian is a cool villain for now, but I don't want his Diagrammatic mastermind schtick to last beyond book 5. I think it would be interesting if he was still alive in books 6-10 with a drastically different role, but I'll admit that killing him off would make sense. If I had to choose between "Taravangian reminds a major antagonist in much the same capacity as he exists now" and "Taravangian dies within the next two books," I'd pick the latter for sure. For what it's worth, I was indifferent to (though not really annoyed by) Lift until I retroactively read Edgedancer, and now I think she's cool. Even if you don't end up liking Edgedancer, though, Brandon has said that Lift will be "less teenagery" by the time she's a major character, so you might find her less annoying then.

I'm not sure that we disagree? I think Gavilar failed to recognize Jasnah's (completely genuine!) reaction to being assaulted for what it actually was, figuring instead that she suffered from "insanity."

I don't have the book on hand so I don't have an exact quote, but Jasnah justifies her murdering the men in Kharbranth by saying something like "They were planning to rob, kill, and possibly rape us." And the way Jasnah talks about the men makes Shallan wonder, "Who hurt you?" I doubt Brandon would include a line like this unless it contained a grain of truth. I suspect that Jasnah was sexually assaulted as a child. Her reaction to the event was labeled "insanity," perhaps because it was so out-of-line with her previous behavior, or perhaps because she dared to name her (high-ranking, lighteyed) assailant. Either way, the horrific Alethi method of "treating" mental illness only compounded her trauma.