Question 22

[Voidus]

I choose the third option, because the damage reflection is Deathwish's power, all subsequent reflections of the initial reflection all target Deathwish as the owner of the power and thus the source of the injury.

So Hero of the Dalles shoots Deathwish, Deathwish reflects the power to the Hero of the Dalles, then the Hero of the Dalles reflects it back to Deathwish who then continues to reflect it to himself as the originator of the reflection

And then Deathwish died.

[the winter system]

1 minute ago, Voidus said:

I choose the third option, because the damage reflection is Deathwish's power, all subsequent reflections of the initial reflection all target Deathwish as the owner of the power and thus the source of the injury.

So Hero of the Dalles shoots Deathwish, Deathwish reflects the power to the Hero of the Dalles, then the Hero of the Dalles reflects it back to Deathwish who then continues to reflect it to himself as the originator of the reflection

And then Deathwish died.

Neat. I have a headache. 

[Voidus]

Take comfort in the fact that Deathwish has an infinitely worse Headache.

[the winter system]

1 minute ago, Voidus said:

Take comfort in the fact that Deathwish has an infinitely worse Headache.

Would it all happen at once, infinitely quickly?

[breakingamber]

8 minutes ago, winter devotion said:

Would it all happen at once, infinitely quickly?

I am not an expert on Deathwish's powers (I wasn't even around when he was conceived (of?)), but I'd have to say... yes.

You could make it worse by beating his head with a hammer! He's not immune to brute force, remember?

[Kobold King]

5 minutes ago, breakingamber said:

I am not an expert on Deathwish's power

 

That's okay. Apparently neither am I.

[breakingamber]

Just now, Kobold King said:

That's okay. Apparently neither am I.

Sure? I could help check that. I'm a certifiedTM expert on hitting people on the head.

With hammers.

And by people I mean nails.

[the winter system]

1 minute ago, Kobold King said:

 

That's okay. Apparently neither am I.

Hey, if you want confusing powers, try explaining what Kokichi can and cannot do to someone who has never heard of anime before. 
Actually, try explaining it to anyone. Anyone at all. 
Or even just try to understand it. 

[Kobold King]

2 minutes ago, winter devotion said:

Hey, if you want confusing powers, try explaining what Kokichi can and cannot do to someone who has never heard of anime before. 
Actually, try explaining it to anyone. Anyone at all. 
Or even just try to understand it. 

 

Now I'm picturing Deathwish trying to figure out if Kokichi is male or female, his fear of accidentally hitting on a guy grappling with his pervy desire to hit on every nearby female. Homophobia and misogyny are aggressively pitted against each other in the REAL infinite feedback loop. 

[the winter system]

Just now, Kobold King said:

 

Now I'm picturing Deathwish trying to figure out if Kokichi is male or female, his fear of accidentally hitting on a guy grappling with his pervy desire to hit on every nearby female. Homophobia and misogyny are aggressively pitted against each other in the REAL infinite feedback loop. 

What would happen if they yeeted him into the sun?

Like, the kick itself would be blunt trauma. Would they melt or would that legit kill him?

[Kobold King]

Just now, winter devotion said:

What would happen if they yeeted him into the sun?

Like, the kick itself would be blunt trauma. Would they melt or would that legit kill him?

 

Unfortunately this kills the Kokichi. Deathwish's power kicks in if the immediate consequences of an attack are to break his skin. That's why his trick of taping razors to his chest works; if someone shoves him the razors will be pushed into his skin even if all they intended to do was shove him.

I'm sure someone of Kokichi's capabilities would figure out a less incinerate-y way of causing Deathwish no end of suffering, however.

[the winter system]

Just now, Kobold King said:

 

Unfortunately this kills the Kokichi. Deathwish's power kicks in if the immediate consequences of an attack are to break his skin. That's why his trick of taping razors to his chest works; if someone shoves him the razors will be pushed into his skin even if all they intended to do was shove him.

I'm sure someone of Kokichi's capabilities would figure out a less incinerate-y way of causing Deathwish no end of suffering, however.

Does that count as breaking skin? I think it counts as completely destroying it. Also, Kokichi upon thinking they've figured it out would absolutely punch themself as hard as they could while making angry eye contact, knocking themself unconcious, in an attempt to hurt him. 

[Kobold King]

8 minutes ago, winter devotion said:

Does that count as breaking skin? I think it counts as completely destroying it. Also, Kokichi upon thinking they've figured it out would absolutely punch themself as hard as they could while making angry eye contact, knocking themself unconcious, in an attempt to hurt him. 

 

Technically incinerating the skin by nuclear fusion still counts as breaking it.

The words "Rules Lawyer" would spin above Kokichi's unconscious head instead of the usual little birds.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Kobold King

[breakingamber]

Alright, this has been nagging at me for some time now.

At this moment, my greatest fear is seeing my sister hurt. She's an adorable little ball of joy (don't tell her I said that) and I would be really pissed off at whoever hurt her (stupid gravity).

I'm guessing that this is true for a lot of people. Husbands and wives, parents and children, etc.

Now, if being an Epic makes your greatest fear your weakness, and you want to eliminate anyone who might even know your weakness/knew you before Calamity at all... how is it even possible to eliminate someone you love(d?)?

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

28 minutes ago, winter devotion said:

Does that count as breaking skin? I think it counts as completely destroying it. Also, Kokichi upon thinking they've figured it out would absolutely punch themself as hard as they could while making angry eye contact, knocking themself unconcious, in an attempt to hurt him. 

I would pay good money to see this on the big screen. 

[Kobold King]

41 minutes ago, breakingamber said:

Alright, this has been nagging at me for some time now.

At this moment, my greatest fear is seeing my sister hurt. She's an adorable little ball of joy (don't tell her I said that) and I would be really pissed off at whoever hurt her (stupid gravity).

I'm guessing that this is true for a lot of people. Husbands and wives, parents and children, etc.

Now, if being an Epic makes your greatest fear your weakness, and you want to eliminate anyone who might even know your weakness/knew you before Calamity at all... how is it even possible to eliminate someone you love(d?)?

 

I think it'd be symbolic, like Funtimes weakness. Your fear wouldn't be the same as an Epic as it is now; as an Epic you likely wouldn't care about your sister. But Calamity's corruption would still latch onto something that reminds you of the fear you used to have, and something you mentally tie to your sister would become your weakness.

[The Swan Dragon]

Totally off topic.

Marble Olympics. Are. Back.

[Voidus]

1 hour ago, breakingamber said:

Alright, this has been nagging at me for some time now.

At this moment, my greatest fear is seeing my sister hurt. She's an adorable little ball of joy (don't tell her I said that) and I would be really pissed off at whoever hurt her (stupid gravity).

I'm guessing that this is true for a lot of people. Husbands and wives, parents and children, etc.

Now, if being an Epic makes your greatest fear your weakness, and you want to eliminate anyone who might even know your weakness/knew you before Calamity at all... how is it even possible to eliminate someone you love(d?)?

I may have a character or two who revolves around this concept.

But I think that unfortunately the answer is that Calamity (The book, not the entity) kind of nixed that connection thing, it's not really a greatest fear thing anymore canonically, just something you feared at least a bit, then Calamity cranks that fear up to infinity. One of the many mistakes of semi-contradictory canon in Calamity unfortunately, I feel like it really minimized a lot about Epics.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

5 minutes ago, Voidus said:

I may have a character or two who revolves around this concept.

But I think that unfortunately the answer is that Calamity (The book, not the entity) kind of nixed that connection thing, it's not really a greatest fear thing anymore canonically, just something you feared at least a bit, then Calamity cranks that fear up to infinity. One of the many mistakes of semi-contradictory canon in Calamity unfortunately, I feel like it really minimized a lot about Epics.

Funtimes pretty much runs on this concept—and like Kobold said, her weakness is symbolic even if her root fear centers on losing those close to her. 

And agreed. Part of what made Firefight such a strong book was the way the fears thing instantly humanized most Epics. Switching it around so that it could just be a mild fear cranked up past all reason robbed Epics—and the worldbuilding—of a lot of complexity that Firefight had so brilliantly introduced. 

[Kobold King]

Not canon even by Oregon standards, but Darkrose's weakness also runs on this concept.

Spoiler

Her root fear is life's circumstances taking the people she loves away from her. Although Darkrose has no compunctions about murdering the people she used to love, her weakness is still cupcakes because of how strongly they're tied to her mother.

Her interactions with Alastair and Sunburst are very much colored by her root fear, though. She wants other Epics in her life. Even if she hates them with equal fervor as she loves them. Darkrose is a tragic mess of a creature.

 

6 minutes ago, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said:

Funtimes pretty much runs on this concept—and like Kobold said, her weakness is symbolic even if her root fear centers on losing those close to her. 

And agreed. Part of what made Firefight such a strong book was the way the fears thing instantly humanized most Epics. Switching it around so that it could just be a mild fear cranked up past all reason robbed Epics—and the worldbuilding—of a lot of complexity that Firefight had so brilliantly introduced. 

 

I don't have anything to add other than that I agree.  I think the problems were beginning to surface even in Firefight, though. David's weakness being the ocean was a little weak considering he'd first seen it only a week or so previously, and his 'trauma' connected to the ocean was no worse than any of a thousand other situations he's been in.

[Voidus]

It was particularly frustrating given that half the RP at that point was based on Firefight-lore. 

[the winter system]

7 hours ago, Kobold King said:

Not canon even by Oregon standards, but Darkrose's weakness also runs on this concept.

  Hide contents

Her root fear is life's circumstances taking the people she loves away from her. Although Darkrose has no compunctions about murdering the people she used to love, her weakness is still cupcakes because of how strongly they're tied to her mother.

Her interactions with Alastair and Sunburst are very much colored by her root fear, though. She wants other Epics in her life. Even if she hates them with equal fervor as she loves them. Darkrose is a tragic mess of a creature.

 

 

I don't have anything to add other than that I agree.  I think the problems were beginning to surface even in Firefight, though. David's weakness being the ocean was a little weak considering he'd first seen it only a week or so previously, and his 'trauma' connected to the ocean was no worse than any of a thousand other situations he's been in.

I just realized now that it’d make much more sense for his weakness to be being called a nerd.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

1 hour ago, winter devotion said:

I just realized now that it’d make much more sense for his weakness to be being called a nerd.

I think where Brandon went wrong (the main place, anyway) is that he’s a master worldbuilder, but characters aren’t his strong suit. That’s not to say his characters are all terrible and lifeless; Shallan, Kaladin, Vin, Dalinar, Elend—Those and many others have distinct personalities and motivations. But when it comes to prioritizing one over the other, he’ll pick worldbuilding every time. 

This isn’t as big a problem, or as noticeable, in series like Mistborn or SA, where the worldbuilding drives the narrative. Reckoners begins as that sort of series, with the big draw being “In a world where all superheroes are evil....” But in Firefight, we get the revelation that all Epics are driven by fear. They’re insane with fear that is tied to past trauma. This demands a shift in focus, from worldbuilding to characters. To do this concept justice, we have to learn more about who Epics were, about their fears, about how that impacts their current rule. This concept makes them more sympathetic, and Brandon needed to carry through. 

But he’s a worldbuilder, not a character builder. His focus is nearly always on the world, not the characters in it. To be a satisfying conclusion—even one that has some plot holes—Calamity had to dig deeper into Epic fears and Calamity’s fears in particular. But since he was more focused on the world and its mechanics, he let the biggest piece of his worldbuilding fall by the wayside. 

I think that if he’d been more focused on the characters, we would have gotten more intuitive narrative choices. We would have gotten David facing his fear of being called a nerd, rather than a brand-new fear of the ocean. We would have gotten a focus on what drove Calamity as a person, rather than on how he’s just a grouchy edgelord afraid of everything. We would have gotten Epics facing their past traumas and healing that way, rather than the hasty wrap-up we actually get. 

Brandon is a fantastic worldbuilder. He puts a lot of care and attention into his worlds, and it shows. But I think Reckoners was one instance where his focus on worldbuilding became a preoccupation—and that hurt the series as a result. 

[the winter system]

1 hour ago, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said:

I think where Brandon went wrong (the main place, anyway) is that he’s a master worldbuilder, but characters aren’t his strong suit. That’s not to say his characters are all terrible and lifeless; Shallan, Kaladin, Vin, Dalinar, Elend—Those and many others have distinct personalities and motivations. But when it comes to prioritizing one over the other, he’ll pick worldbuilding every time. 

This isn’t as big a problem, or as noticeable, in series like Mistborn or SA, where the worldbuilding drives the narrative. Reckoners begins as that sort of series, with the big draw being “In a world where all superheroes are evil....” But in Firefight, we get the revelation that all Epics are driven by fear. They’re insane with fear that is tied to past trauma. This demands a shift in focus, from worldbuilding to characters. To do this concept justice, we have to learn more about who Epics were, about their fears, about how that impacts their current rule. This concept makes them more sympathetic, and Brandon needed to carry through. 

But he’s a worldbuilder, not a character builder. His focus is nearly always on the world, not the characters in it. To be a satisfying conclusion—even one that has some plot holes—Calamity had to dig deeper into Epic fears and Calamity’s fears in particular. But since he was more focused on the world and its mechanics, he let the biggest piece of his worldbuilding fall by the wayside. 

I think that if he’d been more focused on the characters, we would have gotten more intuitive narrative choices. We would have gotten David facing his fear of being called a nerd, rather than a brand-new fear of the ocean. We would have gotten a focus on what drove Calamity as a person, rather than on how he’s just a grouchy edgelord afraid of everything. We would have gotten Epics facing their past traumas and healing that way, rather than the hasty wrap-up we actually get. 

Brandon is a fantastic worldbuilder. He puts a lot of care and attention into his worlds, and it shows. But I think Reckoners was one instance where his focus on worldbuilding became a preoccupation—and that hurt the series as a result. 

Yeah, you're definitely right. Nice essay. 

[Kobold King]

2 hours ago, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said:

[INTIMIDATINGLY WELL THOUGHT THROUGH ESSAY]

 

Yes, I agree.

I think another large factor though is simply that Brandon prioritizes the Cosmere novels over his other projects. To him, the Reckoners trilogy was just a fun side, and I don't think he necessarily intended to make anything super deep or thematically meaningful. He wrote this on his State of the Sanderson for 2016.

 

Quote

I intend [Apocalypse Guard] to follow in the footsteps of the Reckoners—having the feel of a science fiction/superhero action film. Sometimes as a reader (and as a writer), I want something a little less “steak dinner” and a little more “hamburger and fries,” if that makes any sense.

Stormlight is my steak dinner, and while I originally thought of Wax and Wayne as hamburger and fries, by books two and three they became steak dinners too. (Just a 6oz fillet instead of a 12oz T-bone.)

Okay, that metaphor is getting a little out of control. I might need to go out for steak for my dinner. Let’s just say that the Reckoners managed to hit that sweet spot of fun action, interesting worldbuilding, and quick plots I was looking for—so I’m eager to do something similar. The Apocalypse Guard is the next step; look for the progress bar to start on it sometime early in 2017.

 

I think characterization and thematic complexity aren't absent because Brandon is less good at them than he is at worldbuilding... I think he just didn't think he needed to add them. Honestly, given how he talks about them, I'm a little surprised they have the depth that they do. I feel like Brandon Sanderson set off with the goal of creating something that's pure spectacle with no depth, but being Brandon Sanderson, couldn't help but tease interesting themes and fascinating characters at the same time.