The Identity of the Man Kaladin Killed

[name_here]

On the topic of Restares, we never actually get a gender for them. So Restares could actually be a woman, however unlikely that is.

Doubtful. It's not a Vorin feminine name. At least, I don't think so. If the center four letters become two characters in Alethi then it would fit the mild asymmetry theme. But at the moment it's like being named Gaius

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

Brandon's Q&A, response to whether Amaram knows.

Amaram knows the answer to this thread. Kurkistan followed up with a "Was it Shallan's brother?" but as expected, that got RAFOed. Pay attention to Amaram's reaction when he meets Shallan in the next book. (Not a guaranteed event, but likely since it's Shallan's book and they'll both be coming to the Shattered Plains.) He may even warn Jasnah that he suspects members of House Davar to be Ghostbloods and likely assassins. If Amaram isn't preoccupied with other things on his mind with Kaladin about...

Edited October 1, 2012 by Cheese Ninja

[Arran]

I very much like this theory, especially since it doesn't have any obvious hole. The Ghostbloods having enough Shards to equip Shallan's father and her brother can easily be explained given the number of Shards that seem to have disappeared. Also, by sending Helaran to kill Amaram, the Ghostbloods may have been looking not just to eliminate Amaram, but also to provide Helaran with valuable battlefield experience so he'd make a good champion for Shallan's father when he openly declared his intent of becoming highprince. As others have noted, it was known that there were no Shardbearers in Amaram's army, so the Ghostbloods could have figured the risk was minimal - and indeed the Shardbearer would easily have succeeded if not for Kaladin.

I wonder if the Ghostbloods have learned exactly who killed their champion by now? Given the way Amaram has suppressed the truth, it's possible that the Ghostbloods honestly believe that it's Amaram who killed the Shardbearer. What fitting irony it would be if they sought revenge on Amaram instead of Kaladin...

Oh, and about Restares - while it's certainly plausible that Amaram spoke directly with him or via spanreed when deciding what to do with the Shards, I wish to point out it's also possible that Amaram just weighed what Restares told him on some previous occasion, and didn't actually communicat with him in the battle's aftermath. Perhaps it's just one of Amaram's other advisors who reminded Amaram of/argued in favor of Restares's words.

[HokieBry]

One piece of important evidence in support of this theory is something not even in the book; it's something Brandon mentioned. He said there is an "Asmodean-like" death in the Way of Kings that he is surprised more people are not asking him about or talking about on forums. When I read that quote from Brandon, I couldn't figure out who he was talking about. After seeing this forum post, I became convinced it had to be the person Kaladin killed. For Wheel of Time readers, what happened in WoK is the opposite (with Asmodean, we know who was killed, but not who did the killing, in WoK, we know who did the killing, but not who was killed), but in my opinion still enough like the questions that went along with Asmodean's death (why, who, the connections, etc).

I just hope Brandon doesn't wait until book 8 or 9 to finally reveal who it was that Kaladin killed. Like people have mentioned, maybe we will find out in book two when hopefully Shallan, Kaladin, and Amaram all end up meeting with each other.

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

One piece of important evidence in support of this theory is something not even in the book; it's something Brandon mentioned. He said there is an "Asmodean-like" death in the Way of Kings that he is surprised more people are not asking him about or talking about on forums. When I read that quote from Brandon, I couldn't figure out who he was talking about. After seeing this forum post, I became convinced it had to be the person Kaladin killed. For Wheel of Time readers, what happened in WoK is the opposite (with Asmodean, we know who was killed, but not who did the killing, in WoK, we know who did the killing, but not who was killed), but in my opinion still enough like the questions that went along with Asmodean's death (why, who, the connections, etc).

I just hope Brandon doesn't wait until book 8 or 9 to finally reveal who it was that Kaladin killed. Like people have mentioned, maybe we will find out in book two when hopefully Shallan, Kaladin, and Amaram all end up meeting with each other.

In honor of Asmodean, I’ll say that there is a mysterious death in The Way of Kings that could use some resources devoted to it. I did not put it in there simply because of Asmodean, but as I thought about it after writing it, I said, “Oh wow, I wonder if people will pick up on that.” So there you go.

Josep wrote: "Just a nagging question: What happened to Gaz? After some character development he just vanishes in chapter 59 without further explanation. Will he be back on the next books?"

Brandon wrote: I'm planning for you to find out what happened to Gaz. There are sufficient clues that you can guess. But it is not explicitly stated, and I'm not going to say it's as obvious as Robert Jordan implied Asmodean's killer is. I was tempted to spell it out explicitly, but there wasn't a good place for it. I will probably answer it eventually, maybe in the next book, but until then you are free to theorize.

I disagree, judging from that goodreads quote, where he seems to associate the Gaz question with Asmodean, he is probably talking about Gaz in the Stormblessed interview as well.

I'd say most of the major deaths in Way of Kings had some element of mystery to them: Gavilar, Taln(in the prelude), Gaz (if dead), Shallan's father and brother both. Only major death that didn't was Tien.

The biggest reason I like "Kaladin killed Helaran" is that it ties together characters in a way that they wouldn't be otherwise. If it was some random Veden guy, there's no major repercussions. Instead of Shallan arriving on the Shattered Plains as simply Jasnah's apprentice, she's "the sister of the man who tried to kill me" to Amaram and "the sister of the man I killed that started this whole mess" to Kaladin. (Even if neither she nor Kaladin know that.) So she's not an unrelated entity to either of them. Amaram may not be as important as a PoV characters, but he is important, both for his past as Kaladin's commander, and in the present as a follower of Restares philosophy and vassal of Sadeas and a Shardbearer (ill-gotten though they may be).

Edited October 11, 2012 by Cheese Ninja

[HokieBry]

I still 100% agree with the theory that Kaladin killed Shallan's brother, even though that other quote you showed me from Sanderson basically proves Gaz as the Asmodean parallel. It's a great way to bring the characters together.

So then who killed Gaz (it's not on the top of my list of mysteries I need solved)?

[Cartith he/him]

Well, let's do some math.

There were ten orders of the Knights Radient. At Feverstone Keep, the Stonewards and Windrunners totaled about three hundred. Let's assume that was all of them, so there would be an average of 150 knights per order. 150*10 = 1500 sets of blade and plate.

That is, um, a lot more than are accounted for. Even assuming that the parts of the world with minimal contact have an equal number of Shards, which isn't too likely when the Knights were based in Alethkar, we're still short by maybe a thousand sets. Now, it's quite possible a number of shards ended up at the bottom of the ocean or some similarly inaccessible location. But over half of them? That's not likely at all.

Well, as said by Szeth, assuming he uses the same Radiant Power as Kalladin, the Windrunners did not use Shard Plate, as it interfered with their Lashings. 

[Windrunner he/him]

Problem is, every full Windrunner that has appeared has been wearing Shardplate.

So there's obviously some way around it. I think that there's indication that Plate was once bound to individuals like Blades are still, so that could be a potential solution. Another is perhaps that, while Szeth uses the powerset of the Windrunners, he is not himself a Windrunner and is not bound to an honorspren.

[Cartith he/him]

My thoughts (recent thoughts) on the whole shiny shardplate and shardblades is that as a Radiant, their armor  was a special version that was semi-infused by Honor, therefore making it compatible with surgebinding. Now that Honor is dead, it is no longer compatible. It would only be compatible when worn by a living Radiant, which explains the loss of light when the Radiants dropped their weapons and armor. 

 

yes, this contradicts my previous post, but Windrunner successfully debunked my theory, so I had to think some more. 

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

I love this theory, mainly because it ties characters together. It would be disappointing to learn that the Vedan who Kaladin killed was a random no name (so far). 

 

I love the connections and intrigue this brings to the characters and organizations already in the book. We have 4 more books to complete this plot arc, it will be very interesting to see how this develops as many of the main characters are now headed or already at the Shattered Plains: Amaram is newly arrived, Jasnah/Shallan are on their way, Szeth is being sent to kill Dalinar, 

[Natans he/him]

Well if Kaladin killed Shallan brother, that will put a very hard barrier in Kaladin path, because he would basically gain the hate of a pontential future Knight Radian,and If Shallan don't understond the reason for Kaladin kill her brother, she could easily try some kind of revenge against him, that could create a very complex situation in the Kholin family.

 

Let's say, if Amaram know that that Kaladin killed Shallan brother, she could use that to influence Shallan in some way. Shallan could give her proximity with Jasnah, like we say in my country, "make his skull" to her, and Dalinar would be in a bad position because he kind trust Kaladin and for sure trust Jasnah, and Jasnah mistrusting Kaladin would force Dalinar force to take sides.

 

Adolin are at odd with Kaladin because Kal put him down, very harsly for a darkeye in the tower, and  he could dislike Kaladin taking side with Jasnah

 

And Kaladin hate almost all lighteyes, if someone plot against him he could act against that person.

 

In the end, would gonna depend how the characters interact with which other, if Sanderson follow the example of Jordan, and none of their main charecters really talk which other this could very well turn very bad.

 

Me like =)

 

PS: Man the face that Amaram will make when he heard about Kaladin and his deeds and see him will made this book. 

 

I can almost see.

Kaladin -"Hi Amaram, nice plate that you have there, carry to say how do you get it ?"

 

Amaram turn and see Kaladin with his uniform of Captain in Dalinar army and say "................. F@#k"

 

The little pleasures of life =)

Edited November 25, 2013 by Natans

[Shardlet he/him]

I don't see much more than a barrier between Shallan and Kaladin if Helaran was the shardbearer.  It was a battle in a foreign country.  Somewhere Helaran would have had no business being.  Helaran would have been in shardplate with a shardblade and already killed half of Kaladin's squad.  If Kaladin had not killed the shardbearer, then Kaladin would be dead.  Helaran had every advatage in the fight.  Hard to develop a believable revenge plot out of that.  A barrier that prevented closeness, perhaps even straight up dislike, sure.  Jasnah would look at the situation fairly rationally and be a tempering influence.

 

The real conflict will be be between Dalinar, Kaladin, and Amaram (with an Adolin sideshow).

[marianmi]

Kaladin -"Hi Amaram, nice plate that you have there, carry to say how do you get it ?"

 

Amaram turn and see Kaladin with his uniform of Captain in Dalinar army and say "................. F@#k"

 

 

Amaram: "Why, Kaladin, my old pal, I see Shallan Davar came with you. I did not know you two are so close now. My dear Shallan, I am so sorry to hear about your brother's death. Why, apparently he has been killed by captain in a border skirmish... Fortunately, the bastard has been punished and branded a slave. Now, what was your question again, Kaladin?"

[Natans he/him]

I don't see much more than a barrier between Shallan and Kaladin if Helaran was the shardbearer.  It was a battle in a foreign country.  Somewhere Helaran would have had no business being.  Helaran would have been in shardplate with a shardblade and already killed half of Kaladin's squad.  If Kaladin had not killed the shardbearer, then Kaladin would be dead.  Helaran had every advatage in the fight.  Hard to develop a believable revenge plot out of that.  A barrier that prevented closeness, perhaps even straight up dislike, sure.  Jasnah would look at the situation fairly rationally and be a tempering influence.

 

The real conflict will be be between Dalinar, Kaladin, and Amaram (with an Adolin sideshow).

 

I agree in part, but she liked her brother and the true could very well be "improved".

 

Said that I don't really believe that Shallan would fall for that, and Amaram would be aware os Shallan because he would know that her brother are with the ghostbloods, and, of course, wouldn't share his dirty litle secret with the enemy, but even soo, if Shallan discovery the true she could very well be misguided to believe in Kaladin guilt and take action.

 

Just saying, not that i really believe. But i would like see some developemt about this little theory here about he shardbear that Kal killed.

 

Amaram: "Why, Kaladin, my old pal, I see Shallan Davar came with you. I did not know you two are so close now. My dear Shallan, I am so sorry to hear about your brother's death. Why, apparently he has been killed by captain in a border skirmish... Fortunately, the bastard has been punished and branded a slave. Now, what was your question again, Kaladin?"

 

LOL

Edited November 25, 2013 by Natans

[Gloom he/him]

Kaladin was in Alethkar, fighting per orders against an enemy. The identity of the Shardbearer is only important because he was a Shardbearer. If he was a any other light-eye, the identity of the man who killed him would be of little note. Shallan has not been searching to find out who killed her brother. In fact, when she was told her brother was dead, she just took it at face value and carried on with her life.

 

Now this could get interesting in two ways. Amaram has done his homework, and knows that the Shardbearer was a scion of house Davar (if this is indeed the case). In this scenario, Amaram could confide in Dalinar and inform him of the attempt on his life by a member of House Davar that was positively identified as having ties to the Ghost Bloods. In this scenario, Dalinar becomes highly suspicious of Shallan, and may even implicate her when an assassination attempt occurs either against himself, or Elhokar.

 

In the above scenario, Jasnah should be able to diffuse the situation somewhat, but even she may be somewhat suspicious of Shallan do to their history. This would force Shallan away from the Kholin family and likely put her in Kaladins company (as in he'd have to watch over her to ensure she stayed out of trouble).

 

Another scenario is that Shallan recognizes Amarams Shardblade. In this scenario, Shallan would attempt to quietly gather information on how Amaram came to be in possession of the Shardblade that Helaran carried. At some point it is likely that Amaram would become aware of the investigation and expose Shallan as a potential spy and assassin. If in the course of the investigation she found out that Kaladin was the one who actually killed the Shardbearer and was then exposed, it is likely the results would be similar except now Shallan would know the man keeping an eye on her was the man who killed her brother.

 

Exactly how things would play out from there is anyones guess, but it wouldn't necessarily mean that Shallan would have to hate Kaladin. He was fighting in a war, and her brother was on the other side. Her brother had a distinct advantage, and his purpose was to assassinate Kaladins lord. There are real world war stories where men kill enemies and try to make good with their wives, sisters, or other relatives with a mixed bag of results, so the results of this situation are not a fore gone conclusion.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Just an evidential note: Amaram does, at this point, know the Shardbearer's identity.

[name_here]

I don't expect Shallan will blame Kaladin, and I seriously doubt Amaram would tell her Kaladin killed him anyway. Also, I don't expect anyone will be particularly suspicious of Shallan; she did already tell Jasnah her father was with the Ghostbloods, and I don't think Dalinar and Kaladin even know they exist. As far as they're concerned, this was just a case of a Shardbearer coming along to one of the innumerable border skirmishes. It's public knowledge that she's from a semi-hostile nation, so learning that her brother was in one of the fights would be unsurprising.

[Truthseeker]

The only way I see Shallan finding out who killed her brother (if it was him) is if Kaladin discovers the persons identity himself and is the one to tell her, in my opinion everyone else in the know as too much to lose by telling her.

 

In the event of her finding out I think the Alethi political system would work in Kaladin's favour, the most likely beneficiary of any grudge on Shallan's part would be the Amaram as the person in command.

[Shardlet he/him]

 As far as they're concerned, this was just a case of a Shardbearer coming along to one of the innumerable border skirmishes. It's public knowledge that she's from a semi-hostile nation, so learning that her brother was in one of the fights would be unsurprising.

 

The notable thing about this case was that it was a Veden (whom I shall call Darth from this day forth  ) who came to fight in an internal Alethi border skirmsh (i.e., an Alethi-on-Alethi fight).

[The Count he/him]

I very much doubt that Amaram will be trying to blackmail or otherwise badmouth Kaladin as Helaran's killer (assuming that this is the case).

 

I am sure the story of Amaram defeating the shardbearer and getting the plate / blade are well established and Amaram will not want questions asked about what happened that day. Particularly not about the man who saved a Highprince and his sons's lives.

 

At best he can probably attempt to sow general mistrust of the ex-bridgemen to discredit their captain. But I do not think he will want to be seen focussing any special attention on Kaladin.

 

I am sure Amaram will be very displeased to see Kaladin is not only alive but in a position of honor and authority in the warcamps. He will probably be puzzled as to why Kaladin has not used his influence to try and get revenge on him in some way. Amaram will undoubtedly believe that this is Kaladin's eventual aim (it is the Alethi way after all).

 

It remains to be seen how far Kaladin's new philosophical approach to life extends once he comes face to face with the man who branded him and gave him to slavery.

 

It should make for some interesting dynamics.

Edited November 26, 2013 by MadRand

[Gloom he/him]

None of this stops Amaram from casting suspicion on Shallan. I would also find it unlikely that Dalinar is unaware of the Ghostbloods. Amaram knew enough to identify the Shardbearer as a Ghostblood and he is one of Sadeas nobles. Dalinar and Sadeas may not be close, but they do work together to ensure the security of the realm. I would find it highly peculiar if one of the two men who was responsible for the safety and security of the crown was unaware of a secret cabal that was intent on interfering with international politics while the other not only knew about them, but knew enough about them to inform his sworn men how to identify them. Dalinar isn't an idiot, and while it was never explicitly stated, it isn't a huge leap to assume he knows about them, and is wary of them. It has been assumed that either Thaidikar or Restares is affiliated with the Ghostbloods. Gavilar knew of both of these people and was suspicious enough about them that he assumed they were the ones who sent Szeth.

 

We know that Amaram is aware of who sent the assassin in Shards to kill him. If that assassin was a Davar, and if Amaram has any influence with Dalinar then it wouldn't be a huge leap to warn him of the affiliation between House Davar and an assassin that was sent against him. Especially with a Davar in Dalinars camp. Heck, it would be common courtesy to do so. As far as Jasnah goes, I already said that she should be able to offset some of the suspicion, but Jasnah is also a very careful person. I find it unlikely that she will be comfortable giving Shallan unrestricted access to her family. Jasnah knows that Shallans family has been mixed up in the Ghostbloods. A group that Jasnah was also capable of identifying through their symbol. She knows that House Davar is in a tenuous position due to the death of Shallans father. She may keep Shallan from being ejected from Dalinars war camp, but I don't think she will do anything that could potentially be harmful to her kin.

 

I'll agree that it isn't as likely that Amaram will out Kaladin as the man who killed Shallans brother, but it wouldn't necessarily stop Shallan from telling Kaladin that she hated Amaram for killing her brother if indeed he was the Shardbearer and Shallan recognizes the Shards.

[Aether he/him]

I'll agree that it isn't as likely that Amaram will out Kaladin as the man who killed Shallans brother, but it wouldn't necessarily stop Shallan from telling Kaladin that she hated Amaram for killing her brother if indeed he was the Shardbearer and Shallan recognizes the Shards.

Just popping by for a quick note: It is very unlikely that Shallan will recognize the Shards, as she would most likely be ignorant of the fact that Heleran was in possession of them if he was indeed the Veden Shardbearer. Finding the Soulcaster was already a huge surprise and if her brothers are unaware of Shallan's own Shardblade (at least that's the impression I got from their conversations through Spanreed and Nan Balat's chapter), how would they know about these Shards, much less being able to recognize them on sight?

Edited December 13, 2013 by Aether

[Gloom he/him]

House Davar was a noble house of enough repute and influence that the Ghostbloods felt that Shallans father could claim the throne. I've seen stranger theories than the possibility that House Davar had been in possession of a set of Shards that were lost with Nan-Heleran. If Shallan felt the Shards were inconsequential compared to the loss of her brother she may not have even considered them. It may not be likely, but I feel it's at least as likely as the Shin wearing Shardplate for farming.

[Aether he/him]

House Davar was a noble house of enough repute and influence that the Ghostbloods felt that Shallans father could claim the throne. I've seen stranger theories than the possibility that House Davar had been in possession of a set of Shards that were lost with Nan-Heleran. If Shallan felt the Shards were inconsequential compared to the loss of her brother she may not have even considered them. It may not be likely, but I feel it's at least as likely as the Shin wearing Shardplate for farming.

Except that Shardplate used for farming is just plainly more awesomer and thus presumably more likely (well, not really). But I've been reduced to making this my main defending point now in several threads, so time for me to shut up until I can actually start contributing properly again.

 

EDIT: Added the part in bold formatting.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Aether

[marianmi]

Just popping by for a quick note: It is very unlikely that Shallan will recognize the Shards, as she would most likely be ignorant of the fact that Heleran was in possession of them if he was indeed the Veden Shardbearer. 

 

This. Plus, probably Amaram will be busy badmouthing Shallan as a spy (given her brother) than badmouthing Kaladin. Amaram will probably just try to stay out of his way.