Power Level Reform

[Gancho Libre he/him]

On 12/14/2018 at 0:23 PM, Ookla the Libre said:

Ok, that makes sense.

But.. you know what else does?

A SKUNK!!!!! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Anywho, can someone explain to me just what exactly a points system is?

[kenod]

It's a system where powers, skills and special equipment will be given a standard points value. The idea is that when a character is created we can see if the amount of points goes beyond a certain limit, which can give a good indication if a character is OP or not.

[Furamirionind They/Any/All]

37 minutes ago, Ookla the Libre said:

Anywho, can someone explain to me just what exactly a points system is?

 

22 minutes ago, kenod said:

It's a system where powers, skills and special equipment will be given a standard points value. The idea is that when a character is created we can see if the amount of points goes beyond a certain limit, which can give a good indication if a character is OP or not.

In addition, it just provides a general analysis tool for people to use when thinking about their or other characters. It may be used as a character creation guide for new players if they find the free-form system confusing, it can help compare power levels between different characters. For instance, if my era 2 character picked a fight with Hellbent, I shouldn't expect to win... However I could RP my powers in a way that should probably make me win.  A points system would take the OOC subjective view of character's abilities, and make them objective. I compare my points to Hellbents and see I have fewer. So I know I should (I may still win, but I should) lose.

hopefully that makes sense.

[+Ark1002]

5 hours ago, Furamirionind said:

 

In addition, it just provides a general analysis tool for people to use when thinking about their or other characters. It may be used as a character creation guide for new players if they find the free-form system confusing, it can help compare power levels between different characters. For instance, if my era 2 character picked a fight with Hellbent, I shouldn't expect to win... However I could RP my powers in a way that should probably make me win.  A points system would take the OOC subjective view of character's abilities, and make them objective. I compare my points to Hellbents and see I have fewer. So I know I should (I may still win, but I should) lose.

hopefully that makes sense.

Well, for might win, Hellbent might not be the best example. Devaan might win. Your character might survive.

[Furamirionind They/Any/All]

4 minutes ago, Ark1002 said:

Well, for might win, Hellbent might not be the best example. Devaan might win. Your character might survive.

It was a drastic example for a drastic point.

But if you think about it, Zinc compounding is VERY powerful in a non-confrontational setting. (In a confrontational setting though... not so much...)

Edited December 19, 2018 by Furamirionind

[xinoehp512 he/him]

I don't think that points could be used to determine who would win in a fight because weaknesses are not power-proportional: for instance, a leecher could win against a skilled Awakener even if they had thousands of breaths; they could just leech anything the Awakener sends at them. 

[+Ark1002]

With Hellbent, everything in a confrontational setting.

[Furamirionind They/Any/All]

4 minutes ago, Ark1002 said:

With Hellbent, everything in a confrontational setting.

Fair enough. lol.

5 minutes ago, Ookla the Phoenix said:

I don't think that points could be used to determine who would win in a fight because weaknesses are not power-proportional: for instance, a leecher could win against a skilled Awakener even if they had thousands of breaths; they could just leech anything the Awakener sends at them. 

*sigh*. The points are an analysis tool, not a "who-is-going-to-win-a-fight-tool". Analysis can be used incorrectly or correctly.  A lurcher is a hard counter to a couple magic systems, and a soft counter to many others. There are a couple other counters. This would be considered an exception to my analysis though.  Before you can do good analysis, you need to understand what you are analyzing.  I don't understand Hellbent, so my example was poor... Though now I do, so I can make that example again saying, " I compare my points to Hellbents and see I have fewer. So I know I should (I may still win, but I should) lose... But if you think about it, Zinc compounding is VERY powerful in a non-confrontational setting. (In a confrontational setting though... not so much...)... With Hellbent, everything in a confrontational setting... So I lose". Good analysis right there.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Furamirionind

[+Ark1002]

Yeah, and it takes extensive digging to know half his powers...

[xinoehp512 he/him]

My point still stands, though: having less points doesn't mean anything if you can exploit your opponent's weakness.

[Furamirionind They/Any/All]

Just now, Ark1002 said:

Yeah, and it takes extensive digging to know half his powers...

I honestly don't know what Hellbent can do... I only used him as an example cause I saw a lot of people complaining he was OP. lol.

[Furamirionind They/Any/All]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Phoenix said:

My point still stands, though: having less points doesn't mean anything if you can exploit your opponent's weakness.

But that doesn't counter my point of it being an analysis tool.

Edit: I am saying you CAN use it a certain way. You don't have to. You don't have to think it makes sense that way, it just can. I would never assume I win because I have more points, but I could assume I would lose because I have less. You an me think very differently.

another edit: It provides information. Do with that information what you will, info is valuable.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Furamirionind

[+Ark1002]

Just now, Furamirionind said:

I honestly don't know what Hellbent can do... I only used him as an example cause I saw a lot of people complaining he was OP. lol.

Their complaining is perfectly valid. On quick count:

Double chromium, double gold, aluminum ferring, double pewter, full oath lightweaver, instantaneous teleportation, elantrian. And that's just a few off the top of my head.

[Furamirionind They/Any/All]

Just now, Ark1002 said:

Their complaining is perfectly valid. On quick count:

Double chromium, double gold, aluminum ferring, double pewter, full oath lightweaver, instantaneous teleportation, elantrian. And that's just a few off the top of my head.

... By "double" do you mean compounder?

[xinoehp512 he/him]

That's not what I was trying to counter. When I think of analysis, I meant analyzing the power level: giving a general idea of how powerful they are.

[Furamirionind They/Any/All]

Just now, Ookla the Phoenix said:

That's not what I was trying to counter. When I think of analysis, I meant analyzing the power level: giving a general idea of how powerful they are.

We can factor common or generic weaknesses as a general guide into the system, but I agree that it isn't foolproof.  It isn't perfect. I just think it is a step forwards. Even if that step is mostly to the left, because it has some forwards to it, I am all for it.

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

Two things.

1. Hellbent is over powered just in general. Double Chromium, in itself is overpowered. Worst example ever right there. Ark and I have had a serious debate, not a joking discussion, a serious debate, on who would win between Voidus Prime, and Hellbent, and I haven’t won yet with the rock solid argument of, ‘He’s Frickin god dude!’

2. I don’t like he points system becuase it leaves out so much. Epic powers, Smedry talents, skills, technology. Example: Someone gets through by saying they can manipulate weather. They then proceed to make a hurricane so big that no one can stop it, and they become a soveirgn body, but hey it wasn’t to many points. No Ark, you can not do this.

[MacThorstenson he/him]

1 minute ago, Darth Woodrack said:

1. Hellbent is over powered just in general. Double Chromium, in itself is overpowered. Worst example ever right there. Ark and I have had a serious debate, not a joking discussion, a serious debate, on who would win between Voidus Prime, and Hellbent, and I haven’t won yet with the rock solid argument of, ‘He’s Frickin god dude!’

I think Ark was just ignoring logic there. Voidus is as unkillable as Ark was on the mountain of the gods thread. Unless Hellbent got rid of Voidus' 17th shard account, hellbent couldn't beat his character.

[xinoehp512 he/him]

The points system is linear. The actual power sets and weaknesses of the characters will be nonlinear. This means that, no matter what, there will have to be discussion of some sort on characters that push the limits of OPness. Just because an ability isn't included in the points system doesn't mean it can't be accounted for.

EDIT: Mac, I thought we decided that Voidus Prime was not actually the Avatar of Voidus, didn't we?

Edited December 19, 2018 by Ookla the Phoenix

[Furamirionind They/Any/All]

The points system should not be:

1. Gold Ferring +5 points
2. Gold Allomancer +1 point

Yay, I created a charecter named miles and he only has 6 points!

It should be:

1. Gold Ferring +5 points
2. Gold Allomancer +1 point
3. Gold Compounder +40 points

There should be a scenario for every thing... Which is why I offered to create a computer program that would create all those numbers for us...

 

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

There is... The one Ax made is actually fairly good...

Ignoreing logic is what Ark does best. Kidding. Kind of.

[+Ark1002]

I think you're remembering that wrong...

I was on the voidus side...

[old man moomba he/him]

I saved my incomplete WOT points list. Yay!

[Furamirionind They/Any/All]

Someone said they have experience creating balancing epic powers.

 I am trying to take other peoples opinions and arguements into account.  If I have not suggested altering the system in a way that tries to address the issue you see with it, it means I have misunderstood you.  There is obviously a break in communication somewhere.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Furamirionind

[Archer he/him]

1 minute ago, Furamirionind said:

Someone said they have experience creating balancing epic powers.

Voidus does. He's been an integral part of the Reckoners RP for years. However, he's on hiatus for the next while, so you'll have to talk to him later.