Power Level Reform

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

I actually agree with you. DA should have a lower power level, but the problem is, their leader is god. We can't change that. Someone moves against them, he's free, and their screwed. They need to be gimped, but they can't be, because they founded the Alleyverse. It's a serious problem, but it isn't going away.

[Voidus]

1 minute ago, Furamirionind said:

Well... I don't know how to respond to this. This sounds to me like a problem with the allyverse that this was allowed to happen. 

This predates the RP, the Alleyverse was essentially built around the DA originally and we were not originally planning on being a part of a balanced RP. So there are a lot of OP characters, abilities and resources in the DA. I was aware of this and made it clear at the outset of the RP and people were still ok with building an RP around it so that's what ended up happening.

But that's why we don't get involved with the rest of the Alleyverse and why Voidus is currently stuck in a barrier.
Basically it's only really a deterrent against attacking the DA. There have been 2 times where the DA interfered with anything, once when everyone tried to attack the DA (And it still wasn't a full counter attack even then) and once when a giant mecha-base was headed to the Alleycity which was also nothing close to a full counter attack.

6 minutes ago, Furamirionind said:

Will it anger that many people that we can't just say after the time skip they are now equal power to the rest of the world or something.

Yep. This has been made clear since before the RP started, the DA is not merely the creation of the players who now RP in it, a lot of people put a lot of time into worldbuilding it. I'm not going to agree to one-sidedly destroy that. I realize that that can seem unfair to newer players who didn't get to participate in that conversation but it's a pretty foundational element of the world now.

[Furamirionind They/Any/All]

5 minutes ago, Darth Woodrack said:

I actually agree with you. DA should have a lower power level, but the problem is, their leader is god. We can't change that. Someone moves against them, he's free, and their screwed. They need to be gimped, but they can't be, because they founded the Alleyverse. It's a serious problem, but it isn't going away.

Fair enough. : /

2 minutes ago, Voidus said:

This predates the RP, the Alleyverse was essentially built around the DA originally and we were not originally planning on being a part of a balanced RP. So there are a lot of OP characters, abilities and resources in the DA. I was aware of this and made it clear at the outset of the RP and people were still ok with building an RP around it so that's what ended up happening.

But that's why we don't get involved with the rest of the Alleyverse and why Voidus is currently stuck in a barrier.
Basically it's only really a deterrent against attacking the DA. There have been 2 times where the DA interfered with anything, once when everyone tried to attack the DA (And it still wasn't a full counter attack even then) and once when a giant mecha-base was headed to the Alleycity which was also nothing close to a full counter attack.

Yep. This has been made clear since before the RP started, the DA is not merely the creation of the players who now RP in it, a lot of people put a lot of time into worldbuilding it. I'm not going to agree to one-sidedly destroy that. I realize that that can seem unfair to newer players who didn't get to participate in that conversation but it's a pretty foundational element of the world now.

Ok, then my proposal is this:

The DA gets no say in the gov, like what Karn said. Any RPer who identifies primarily with the DA (their vote would be be with the DA), doesn't get to participate in the gov with a role of any kind. It isn't fair though that an entire group of people can just ignore laws because "they can".  That should never be a good reason in... anything ever.  Individual DA members should still be held accountable for their actions if they are ever caught.  The gov can't go after the DA as a whole because they are too powerful, but individuals are still held accountable. Just like TUBA and the GBs will be. Laws may be occasionally targeted against the DA, but as they apparently have so much power, I don't see why they would care anyway.  There will of course be a faction of the gov who don't want to take action against the DA though as they are scared.

[BitBitio he/him]

1 hour ago, Ark1002 said:

At that point I agree, I just want to make sure it is not too restrictive, such as saying nothing else is allowed. Someone will bring in something that doesn't it the point system, that's just the sort of thing we do.

My problem is I was comparing Hellbent to Kane when I made it

Except Kane never had Hellbent Syndrome

[MetaTerminal he/him]

If the DA gets no say (and I’d prefer an explicit OK from DA members if we wanted to do that) then we’d probably go for something like ‘the DA doesn’t count as a Great Guild’ - you can affiliate with it, and its non-Great status doesn’t affect their RP abilities, but it can’t be your primary affiliation. 

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

I agree with @Furamirionind, except on one point. They should be allowed access to the government, but they would participate as individuals, not DA members.

[Furamirionind They/Any/All]

1 minute ago, Darth Woodrack said:

I agree with @Furamirionind, except on one point. They should be allowed access to the government, but they would participate as individuals, not DA members.

 

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Cited said:

If the DA gets no say (and I’d prefer an explicit OK from DA members if we wanted to do that) then we’d probably go for something like ‘the DA doesn’t count as a Great Guild’ - you can affiliate with it, and its non-Great status doesn’t affect their RP abilities, but it can’t be your primary affiliation. 

You are both right in your amendments to my proposal, however, I admit I am really ticked off right now.  So I may be being a little (a lot) too harsh on DA members right now.  I am going to take a break from this, and come back when I am calmer.

[Voidus]

54 minutes ago, Ookla the Ring said:

So the DA wouldn't just immediately wipe out anyone that attempted to enforce the rules on individual members of the DA? I think that could be enough, though if the DA as a guild won't abide by their decisions, then maybe the DA shouldn't be allowed to have a voice in the government. Along the lines of your proposal Voidus. 

Edit: As long as your territory wasn't threatened.

Probably not, no. If anyone entered DA territory trying to catch a criminal they'd probably end up captured or dead but they wouldn't really go out of their way to go saving people or anything like that.
Yeah that's what I was trying to suggest, they'd just completely ignore the government, not trying to influence it but also not influenced by it.

@Furamirionind going to break this response up into parts:

6 minutes ago, Furamirionind said:

Ok, then my proposal is this:

The DA gets no say in the gov, like what Karn said. Any RPer who identifies primarily with the DA (their vote would be be with the DA), doesn't get to participate in the gov with a role of any kind.

Yep, that's what I was trying to suggest earlier, sorry if that wasn't clear. Depends on how other DA members feel about this but for me personally this would be what makes the most sense.

7 minutes ago, Furamirionind said:

It isn't fair though that an entire group of people can just ignore laws because "they can".  That should never be a good reason in... anything ever. 

Being able to ignore a law isn't a reason to ignore it, but it's a reason to not be bound by it. If you want to do something that's against the law but you know that there'll be no repercussions if you do then why wouldn't you?

10 minutes ago, Furamirionind said:

Individual DA members should still be held accountable for their actions if they are ever caught.

Yeah that was what I was trying to suggest when I was talking about the DA being an underground of sorts. Fugitives are safe inside DA territory because trying to invade it would be suicidal, but when they go outside they're still fugitives.

12 minutes ago, Furamirionind said:

Laws may be occasionally targeted against the DA, but as they apparently have so much power, I don't see why they would care anyway. 

I would be very concerned if the lawmakers of the Alleyverse didn't target the DA


All the above is subject to other DA members weighing in, in-character I only have 2 DA characters, 1 is Voidus who can't do anything at the moment and wouldn't really mind that much when he gets out, the other is a pretty junior member of the DA and isn't likely to personally violate any laws.
So if someone has any other suggestions that make sense I'm definitely open to them.

[Furamirionind They/Any/All]

1 minute ago, Voidus said:

Probably not, no. If anyone entered DA territory trying to catch a criminal they'd probably end up captured or dead but they wouldn't really go out of their way to go saving people or anything like that.
Yeah that's what I was trying to suggest, they'd just completely ignore the government, not trying to influence it but also not influenced by it.

@Furamirionind going to break this response up into parts:

Yep, that's what I was trying to suggest earlier, sorry if that wasn't clear. Depends on how other DA members feel about this but for me personally this would be what makes the most sense.

Being able to ignore a law isn't a reason to ignore it, but it's a reason to not be bound by it. If you want to do something that's against the law but you know that there'll be no repercussions if you do then why wouldn't you?

Yeah that was what I was trying to suggest when I was talking about the DA being an underground of sorts. Fugitives are safe inside DA territory because trying to invade it would be suicidal, but when they go outside they're still fugitives.

I would be very concerned if the lawmakers of the Alleyverse didn't target the DA


All the above is subject to other DA members weighing in, in-character I only have 2 DA characters, 1 is Voidus who can't do anything at the moment and wouldn't really mind that much when he gets out, the other is a pretty junior member of the DA and isn't likely to personally violate any laws.
So if someone has any other suggestions that make sense I'm definitely open to them.

I apologize, it seems we were thinking along the same lines most of this time, I just failed to understand that.

[MacThorstenson he/him]

I also support the idea that the DA has no say in the government. Because voidus supports it, Mac also supports it. Maq will support it as well when he is officially brought in, Mack is not affiliated with the DA.

[Voidus]

3 minutes ago, Furamirionind said:

I apologize, it seems we were thinking along the same lines most of this time, I just failed to understand that.

All good, I've always been sympathetic to the fact that it's a dramatically unbalanced group. That's why literally the only times Voidus has ever used any abilities since the start of the RP is to create a proxy for himself that was more inline with regular character levels. (A rock Elsecaller) and to let someone in to see the Worldspike (Which promptly caused him to get trapped there so he couldn't interfere in the war)

There are some plans to ensure that the DA characters that interact with other people are within standard acceptable PC ranges. I haven't revealed the specifics of those plans even within the DA because they're very plot dependant so it depends on what happens at the end of this era.

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

So, the problem, in my opinion, with a safe haven, is why would they leave? They can do whatever they want outside of the DA, but inside they never have to leave. I would be fine with that, if we had an exposition treaty of sorts. The Precursors would be allowed to go in and arrest people who committed high crimes, such as mass murder, teason, assassination of government officials, or a combination of crimes that the charges would be stacked asa high crime. Before they did this, they would have to ask permission, and if they don't get it, they don't go in. It could also put a cool thing in, where people are hired on the side by the law enforcement groups to move in and get the criminals out.

[Voidus]

2 minutes ago, Darth Woodrack said:

So, the problem, in my opinion, with a safe haven, is why would they leave?

In-character? To get resources, meet with people, acquire information, etc.
Out-of-character? (And speaking from experience here) Because having your character trapped somewhere can get really boring sometimes.
 

4 minutes ago, Darth Woodrack said:

Before they did this, they would have to ask permission, and if they don't get it, they don't go in.

That's always going to be possible, it's unlikely that it'd end up happening but still possible.

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

All we're asking is if a dozen, incospiques, barely armed, precursors can go in and arrest a high criminal. The DA wouldn't look like their letting someone else police them, and all those who have caused great chaos and suffering get their du.

[Lord Meeker he/him]

Which point system are y'all using? I see like twelve on here.

[Karnatheon he/him]

Alright, well I'm glad we were able to come to a consensus. Assuming the rest of the DA doesn't have a huge issue with this, which I'm not sure why they would since they are already part of the most powerful guild, and it would only be affecting them if they committed crimes out of DA territory. I really hope that Republic ends up winning in the other thread because it genuinely sounds like a ton of fun and I would love to participate. We'll have to see how it ends up going though I suppose.

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

If Voidus agrees to an exposition treaty, I'm good with a republic. I'm probably good with a republic anyways, as long as we don't go to war with separatists, and make use of a secret clone army created by a jedi master. Also, as long as the supreme chancellor is either me, or not a sith lord.

[Furamirionind They/Any/All]

46 minutes ago, Darth Woodrack said:

If Voidus agrees to an exposition treaty, I'm good with a republic. I'm probably good with a republic anyways, as long as we don't go to war with separatists, and make use of a secret clone army created by a jedi master. Also, as long as the supreme chancellor is either me, or not a sith lord.

Heh, That's the first thing we are doing when I become Chancellor.  (just kidding, pls don't use this in a campaign against me... O.o)

I like how I have infiltrated all the planning docs with talk of the republic-government.  Actually, I probably shouldn't be as it makes it more difficult to talk about... so on and so forth.  I think the correct doc to talk about it is the Dawn of a New Era thread, so I will be trying to contain my thoughts on the republic to there... for now... : )

Edited December 14, 2018 by Furamirionind

[Voidus]

1 hour ago, Darth Woodrack said:

All we're asking is if a dozen, incospiques, barely armed, precursors can go in and arrest a high criminal. The DA wouldn't look like their letting someone else police them, and all those who have caused great chaos and suffering get their du.

It's possible that the DA would hand someone over, but it'd depend on who it was and what it was for. It'd probably be less official than an extradition treaty but if/when this happens we can discuss specifics.

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

Okay. We will definitely put bounties on people, and there will be people, mostly NPCs, but I'll probably have Walker do some of this, who go in and remove these criminals from your territory, less officially.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Darth Woodrack

[+Sorana she/her]

So the DA maybe won't be a part of the government, will still exist.

Is that the gist of what I missed during the last hours?

Anything regarding the points system?

[Gancho Libre he/him]

A points system?

[Voidus]

8 hours ago, Sorana said:

So the DA maybe won't be a part of the government, will still exist.

Is that the gist of what I missed during the last hours?

Anything regarding the points system?

More or less. Think it's generally accepted now, people have wanted acknowledgement that it won't account for everything and won't be super public but should be used to determine objectively whether or not a character should be considered OP.

[Gancho Libre he/him]

I see. So people would use a point system to make their characters?

[Voidus]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Libre said:

I see. So people would use a point system to make their characters?

More like people would use a point system to judge whether or not a character was acceptable. If people want to be more likely to have their character accepted they can use the point system to create the character, but it should be used as a metric, not as a character creation process.