How did the Recreance Happen?

[Patrick Star]

So, I was just thinking about how difficult it must have been for the recreance to occur.

 

Every radiant of 9 different orders simultaneously breaks their oaths and kills their spren.  How did this happen?

 

I highly doubt that simply saying "I won't kill any more evil" or "I'm going to stop protecting people" would break the bonds.  As we see with Kaladin, the radiants must have actively broken their bonds.

 

This means that in order for the different orders to kill their spren, a ton of atrocities must have been committed.  The Dustbringers would have had to set up an evil tyrant, the Windrunners must have allowed a ton of people to die, the Edgedancers would have oppressed the poor, and so on.

 

Maybe this is just me, but I find this highly unlikely.  In my eye, there are two other ways that it could have occurred.

 

The first option is the existence of an anti-oath(s), like the one from that death rattle.  The second option is spren suicide, which is exactly what it sounds like.

 

What do you guys think happened? Personally, I'm leaning towards the anti-oath option.  Though I do think that it would be helpful to hear what the highspren said before making a judgement.

 

Edit: I probably should have been more specific about the point of my post.

 

I'm more interested in how the recreance happened, not why.  I'm trying to think of the mechanism that allowed for hundreds of radiants to simultaneously break their oaths and kill their spren, not why they did it.  Sorry if I was unclear about that.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Patrick Star

[RShara]

I think it'll turn out that either the spren have some hidden motivation that is possibly sinister or misleading, or that surgebinding has some hidden effect that made it so giving up their Oaths was the best choice possible.

[kari-no-sugata]

I've got no real idea on this. I've thought about it but struggled to think of any real theories.

 

I've got a much simpler question though: do we have any idea when the Recreance was? I remember there being a comment in tWoK that the War of Loss and end of the Hierocracy was 500 years ago or so but no idea on the Recreance.

 

PS I wouldn't be surprised if one or more Heralds was involved in the Recreance

[signspace13]

I have always thought that the Radiants abandoned their oaths in protest to something. I think the most likely cause is human war, in the Feverstone keep scene i think one of the soldiers asks what the KR are doing there because they should be at the front lines. So I think that those were the front lines of a human war, against human, and so the windrunners could nit protect without killing, the dustbringers bravery was negligible, because what is brave about charging humans while in full shard plate with a shardblade.

 

all of this abd more, I think the Radiants were sick of being used as soldiers and spys by petty kings and lords, so they quit, i think those kings asked them to do something terrible or they were threatened in some way if they didn't do it.

[Awesomeness Summoned]

The biggest clues to what happened are in the epigraphs from the Words of Radiance book. Here are the ones I find most significant to figuring out what happened. I put them in order of chapter rather than the order they are presented in SA2.

So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address.

Ch 30

In short, if any presume Kazilah to be innocent, you must look at the facts and deny them in their entirety; to say that the Radiants were destitute of integrity for this execution of one of their own, one who had obviously fraternized with the unwholesome elements, indicates the most slothful of reasoning; for the enemy’s baleful influence demanded vigilance on all occasions, of war and of peace

Ch 32

Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which has hitherto been referenced; namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence, though whether it be some rogueries among the Radiants’ adherents or of some external origin, Avena would not suggest

Ch 38

That they responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths. The term Recreance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named.

Ch 38

This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at this time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine.

Ch 38

I'm still coming up with scenarios of what happened based on those tidbits of information so don't have any strong theories but thought it would be good to have those listed in this thread. Edited May 11, 2014 by Awesomeness Summoned

[kaellok]

I think that Intent matters.  Instead of having Windrunners stand around doing nothing, or otherwise betraying specific ideals, I think it was simple: They plunged their Blades into the ground, and renounced their oaths altogether.  So, something similar to your anti-oath theory.  Syl tells Kaladin, "I was only as dead as your oaths."  It wasn't just his actions or inactions that were causing the problems, but the seriousness with which he considered them.  Syl slowly dwindled in intelligence through WoR as he focused more and more on seeking his revenge against Elhokar.

 

Thrusting their Blades into the ground was a pure, physical representation of their Intent to abandon their oaths and Ideals, and that was sufficient in the world of Roshar.  Or maybe they said some Words, as well, a different kind of Ideal.

[Shaggai]

The biggest clues to what happened are in the epigraphs from the Words of Radiance book. Here are the ones I find most significant to figuring out what happened. I put them in order of chapter rather than the order they are presented in SA2.

I'm still coming up with scenarios of what happened based on those tidbits of information so don't have any strong theories but thought it would be good to have those listed in this thread.

It seems that they discovered something that made them abandon their oaths. I suspect that they discovered the betrayal of the Heralds, and just said "storm this!" in unison. If the Heralds betrayed them, there's no reason to keep going. The Stonewards would have continued, because Taln stuck to the Oathpact.

[RShara]

I have always thought that the Radiants abandoned their oaths in protest to something. I think the most likely cause is human war, in the Feverstone keep scene i think one of the soldiers asks what the KR are doing there because they should be at the front lines. So I think that those were the front lines of a human war, against human, and so the windrunners could nit protect without killing, the dustbringers bravery was negligible, because what is brave about charging humans while in full shard plate with a shardblade.

 

all of this abd more, I think the Radiants were sick of being used as soldiers and spys by petty kings and lords, so they quit, i think those kings asked them to do something terrible or they were threatened in some way if they didn't do it.

 

 

It seems that they discovered something that made them abandon their oaths. I suspect that they discovered the betrayal of the Heralds, and just said "storm this!" in unison. If the Heralds betrayed them, there's no reason to keep going. The Stonewards would have continued, because Taln stuck to the Oathpact.

 

The problem with these is that they're essentially murdering their best friends (the spren).  I don't think, given that Windrunners especially would need to be pretty honorable, that this is something they would do over a fit of pique.  It would have to be something significant and important.

 

[signspace13]

The problem with these is that they're essentially murdering their best friends (the spren).  I don't think, given that Windrunners especially would need to be pretty honorable, that this is something they would do over a fit of pique.  It would have to be something significant and important.

 

 

I agree, I like the idea of the spren themselves having something secret going on, and I think it was the bondsmiths who stuck around anyway.

[Moogle]

If any Order stuck around, it would probably be the Skybreakers. They have a thing for not going against their personal codes. This also fits with the existence of the Skybreakers right now, as well as WoB on Szeth "going somewhere" with being part of an order.

[Terra of Roshar]

It seems that they discovered something that made them abandon their oaths. I suspect that they discovered the betrayal of the Heralds, and just said "storm this!" in unison. If the Heralds betrayed them, there's no reason to keep going. The Stonewards would have continued, because Taln stuck to the Oathpact.

 

Yeah, except that it was stated that the Recreance vision was of Windrunners and Stonewards, so I'm pretty sure neither of them was the order that stayed. Pattern's comments about all the old Cryptics dying imply that it wasn't the Lightweavers. Other than that, I have no real idea, though the presence of a group calling themselves the Skybreakers in modern Roshar is suggestive. 

 

More on topic, could it be that the way the KR broke their bonds was by giving up their Shards? It seems kind of circular, but assuming that they could order the spren to stay as Blades in the ground and keep their Shardplate there once it was off, and they left them there in front of a crowd of soldiers who were likely to take them and use them for less-than-honorable purposes, that would probably break the "life before death strength before weakness," part of the First Ideal, not to mention the Windrunners' "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves," and possibly other, currently unknown oaths.

[Leuthie]

In the Recreance Vision, it appeared that the Radiants were in formation and attacking the fort. They then stopped and dropped their weapons and armor.

This doesnt give a why, but it does suggest a simple how: convince your spren that you're going to kill hundreds of innocents using their power and the spren will severe their bonds. If they are weapons at that time, they're stuck as weapons.

[kari-no-sugata]

Hmm. I think I might have just cracked it - a really simple solution that doesn't require any assumptions. I'll try to explain it with a Q/A format:

 

Q: What was the Radiants' goal in the Recreance?

A: To permanently end the existence of the Radiants by deliberately betraying the spren.

 

Q: Why in Damnation would they want to do that?

A: Because the Radiants were now the biggest threat left to mankind - the Voidbringers had been defeated. The Radiants had no enemies left except themselves.

 

Q: How can the Radiants be a threat - don't their Oaths and spren guides make them safe?

A:  Nobody is perfect. We see in Dalinar's flashback with Nohadon that Radiants can start wars or similar - some Surgerbinder called Alakavish. Radiants can be lied to and manipulated.

 

Q: Didn't Nohadon do something to make Radiants safer?

A: Possibly, but we don't know if he could somehow change the underlying nature of the Nahel bond and Surgebinders. Even then, no system is foolproof - particularly if the assumptions underlying the system end (eg that Desolations will keep on happening). Honor himself said that Odium realised that mankind will turn against itself if left alone.

 

Q: So how could the Radiants turn against mankind without betraying their Oaths?

A: Imagine a small country with a big neighbour and that the king of the big country is not a Radiant. Nothing would prevent the king of the big country using conventional troops to invade the small country in an act of greed (while lying and manipulating things to keep his Radiants from stopping it). There would be Radiants in the small country - they would be aghast and motivated to stop the invasion, by force if necessary. We've seen how deadly a single Shardbearer can be on the battlefield against normal troops - imagine what a Surgebinder could do. We know from Adolin's case with Sadeas that not all Radiants view things the same way. Just a few Radiants of the more aggressive Orders could have a huge impact. Next, the king of the big country lies and manipulates Radiants from his country and some decide to help. We now have Radiants fighting Radiants without either breaking their Oaths.

 

Q: Even if that happened, how could the Radiants deliberately murder their own spren?

A: Better for some "living ideas" to die than humans. Radiants swear to protect humans not everything - else they wouldn't even be able to eat plants let alone animals. Their spren might be their best friend in some cases but few would want to be in a situation where they have to kill humans.

 

Q: Some Radiants skills are poorly suited for the battlefield so why do all Orders disband?

A: If the biggest threat to mankind is the Radiants themselves then they have to ensure that there'll never be Radiants again, of any order. The more the spren see it as a universal betrayal the less likely they are to ever trust humans again.

 

Q: So how do you think the Recreance itself began?

A: Once things escalate to a high enough level even the Radiants themselves would begin to question their existence. Most are enlightened to some degree so if no better solution can be found then the only solution remaining is universal disbanding. If all sides can basically agree to disband on the same day then that ensures no one group can take advantage.

 

Q: Isn't it a bad idea to leave the Blades and Plate behind?

A: I suspect the Radiants didn't anticipate that normal humans would be able to figure out how to make decent use of the Blades and Plate long term - the method of attaching a gem to the pommel of a Blade was discovered some decades after the Recreance. Something similar might have occurred with Plate. The Radiants might have mistakenly assumed that it would be more of a short term problem. Either way, nobody would be able to make new Blades and Plate. They probably had to make a very clear and blunt demonstration of their disbanding for all to see.

 

Q: Shouldn't they have at least explained this all though?

A: It's actually better if the humans revile the Radiants too, in this scenario - gives the humans no reason to want the Radiants back.

 

Q: What prevents this all from happening again?

A: Nothing.

 

[Dun Sphere]

Perhaps it was in response to the death of the Almighty. Optionally, they could have been tricked into breaking their oaths and ending the lives of their spren. I do believe that their spren were dead before they left their blades in the ground. 

 

I would also like to know what happened to the radiants afterwards. Did they just go back to Urithiru and spend the rest of their days drinking violet wine.

[NeutroniumAlchemist]

It seems that they discovered something that made them abandon their oaths. I suspect that they discovered the betrayal of the Heralds, and just said "storm this!" in unison. If the Heralds betrayed them, there's no reason to keep going. The Stonewards would have continued, because Taln stuck to the Oathpact.

 

That seems to simple to me, 9 orders of the KR would not ALL kill their spren over their abandonment, theres got tp be more to it than that.

 

It's a shame we cant ask Mr.T who probably know/knew? it, since this secret most likely is his coded message in the Diagram states that there is a secret which destroyed the KR the first time around.

[A Joe in the Bush]

The Radiants would have still been around. Their Descendants, the Lighteyes, Still rule. And welcome to the Forum Dun Sphere!

[Seloun]

Been discussed before - my theory is that it's related to bond-farming by spren.

 

We know that the spren really seem to like being bonded to humans. We also know that in order to have the bond form (or form fully; this is still confusing) the individual has to be 'cracked' in some fashion; for the current protagonists this generally requires some major mental trauma that ends up shaping much of their personality or motivation.

 

Given that the spren seem to like being bonded with humans, one might ask what they get out of it. There has been speculation that spren might somehow be part of the lifecycle of the greatshells (we know the greatshells are intimately involved with some forms of spren) or more to the point, perhaps vice versa. What if the spren lifecycle somehow depends on bonding with creatures in the physical realm, with the creature depending on the type of spren?

 

So there's a population of spren, comprised of a lot more members that want to be bonded than are bonded, and are spren specifically associated with humans - so can't bond with anyone besides humans. But unlike Rosharian races, humans can't form bonds natively - they need some help. The next logical step might be to do something to encourage bonds to form.

 

Then the humans get all angry about how the spren are 'abusing' them, and next you know all of the spren are dead.

 

So obviously, highly speculative, but fits what we know about the mechanics of the Nahel bond (needing a broken person), what we've observed in the books (the human-associated spren seem to _like_ or want to be bonded to humans, and are implied to require having restrictions not to do so), and is potentially horrific enough to make 200 or so Kaladin-analogues break their oaths in a fashion that explicitly kills their spren.

 

The latter is a non-trivial thing; the spren must have been responsible for some perceived crime since otherwise there presumably would have been other ways to deal with the problem (e.g. everyone retires, kills themselves in a manner that doesn't kill the spren, take a long journey across the ocean, fly to the moon, whatever). The most obvious candidate for such a crime that the spren might consider given how much they seem to like being bonded with humans is doing something to be more bondy with humans.

 

As a thought experiment, suppose Syl was somehow responsible (indirectly) for Tien's death. If Kaladin believe that to be the case, and moreover if it turns out all (or even some) of the KR spren are somehow responsible for their bondmate's 'break', I think you could see why Kaladin might take drastic action. However, if what the spren/Honor believes is true and the KR are absolutely necessary for the survival of mankind on Roshar...well, tough call (Mr. T would pity the fools).

[kaellok]

However, if what the spren/Honor believes is true and the KR are absolutely necessary for the survival of mankind on Roshar...well, tough call (Mr. T would pity the fools).

 

(But only on one of his compassionate days.  The more intelligent he is, the stingier he is with his precious, precious pity.)

[maxal]

I really really want to see one of the old spren come back... We could then get the whole story.

[WitSpren]

I really really want to see one of the old spren come back... We could then get the whole story.

 

We now have Stormfather.    Maybe we can get something from him now.

[Plastic Misting]

Perhaps they knew that if they would keep the bond they'd trigger another desolation.

 

That's the only reason I can think of that really works. All of the other reasons mentioned here would lead some radiants to give up their bond, but all of them? At the same time? The radiants would probably still like their power after the desolation is over, they can still keep doing good with them.

[Pathfinder]

So couple of thoughts. First, maybe the bondsmiths are the order that didn't sacrifice their spren. Then that might be why the Stormfather, Nightwatcher, and Cuceh (whatever the rest of it is lol) is still around. They were the spren to the three bondsmen. The bondsmiths didn't break the oath, so when the bondsmiths died of natural causes, Stormfather and the rest were free without "dying". Secondly, do we have a time line? I think some has been thrown around here and there, but I am not sure if we have a clear picture. The best guess (which was partly already suggested) I have which could be wrong is this:

 

-Heralds break their oath and abandon Taln

-World celebrates that the Desolations are over

-Radiants originally a multinational and autonomous police force now no longer has common enemy

-Radiants begun separating to their countries of origin

-Due to lack of common enemy, countries begin to fight each other

-Radiants start being used as a "nuclear action"

-countless lives are lost, leaving radiants bitter about ideals, and have either broken their oaths by fighting, or sick of it, break their oaths so as not to be used as such

 

-bonus option, while countries are fighting each other, radiants find out what the heralds really did, feel betrayed and say screw it all and break their oaths. Why should they hold to it, if the heralds they aspire to and follow won't?

[RShara]

Because breaking their oaths mean killing their spren.

[Pathfinder]

Good point. I will say this though it is a stretch but we saw how Kaladin linked his abilities and being unable to save people as a curse. If the radiants find their powers are being used to kill hundreds, with the end of the desolations only to find out it was all a lie? It is a leap, but one could in order to cope with all the deaths, blame the "source" of their powers, ie spren. Honestly as I type this I don't really feel this to be true, but I am going to post it anyway, on the possibility it may spark some other ideas, or through tossing concepts around lead to what may be the reason. 

[kaiadam]

My personal theory is that surgebinding somehow speeds up or allows the next Desolation to take place.  One of the more outstanding differences between the timeline of the current desolations and that of the previous ones is that there has been a far longer period of peace - likely purchased through the deaths of most spren that can form Nahel bonds.

 

The KR collectively renouncing their vows - how could this happen unless they all believed it was for the greater good?  There had to be a reason why they destroyed their spren.  They probably discovered how the Odium cage worked and that surgebinding weakened the chains, or something like that.  That would explain Darkness' intent on killing any surgebinder he can lay his hands on - the fewer who can surgebind the slower the next Desolation is.