How did the Recreance Happen?

[rbnguevara]

Cynispren,

 

Your comment is without any grounds.  You need to re-read both WoK and WoR.  In both books it stated what the purpose was for the Knights to exist and they did not fight human wars once they were officially formed and organized.  The Recreance happened after they had existed for a 1 or more Desolations so they were past the point in time where the Dustbringers used to cause trouble.  As far as being used or forced by humans kings or not to commit crimes against there oaths thereby forcing an end to the there oaths.  It is impossible based on the facts that has already been presented.  Most likely what happened was after the Heralds quit.  Odium somehow now had the upper hand and killed Honor.  This was likely felt by the spren who in turn passed on the change to the Knights.  Knowing that the Heralds leaders of there own great orders had given up and caused the death of there God, the Knights probably became overwhelmed with grief and anger allowing them the opportunity to quit.  Shamed by there leaders they no longer wanted to be knights.  Also the Heralds themselves could have personally instigated the knights to quit.  We don't know where they went after the last desolation.  We know that all the Honor blades are in Shin and the Skybreakers never really disbanded because Kalak(darkness) is leading them still.  I have more to say but my point is the Knights were not corrupted like the Heralds or forced to betray there oaths.  Instead they quit willingly.

[Kaladin]

So couple of thoughts. First, maybe the bondsmiths are the order that didn't sacrifice their spren. Then that might be why the Stormfather, Nightwatcher, and Cuceh (whatever the rest of it is lol) is still around. They were the spren to the three bondsmen. The bondsmiths didn't break the oath, so when the bondsmiths died of natural causes, Stormfather and the rest were free without "dying". Secondly, do we have a time line? I think some has been thrown around here and there, but I am not sure if we have a clear picture. The best guess (which was partly already suggested) I have which could be wrong is this:

 

-Heralds break their oath and abandon Taln

-World celebrates that the Desolations are over

-Radiants originally a multinational and autonomous police force now no longer has common enemy

-Radiants begun separating to their countries of origin

-Due to lack of common enemy, countries begin to fight each other

-Radiants start being used as a "nuclear action"

-countless lives are lost, leaving radiants bitter about ideals, and have either broken their oaths by fighting, or sick of it, break their oaths so as not to be used as such

 

-bonus option, while countries are fighting each other, radiants find out what the heralds really did, feel betrayed and say screw it all and break their oaths. Why should they hold to it, if the heralds they aspire to and follow won't?

I agree with this and think we can pinpoint the "nuclear action" that was the breaking point for the Knight's Radiant. The destruction of Stormseat and the formation of the Shattered Plains. We know this occured after the Last Desolation, so how else could it have occured but through the actions of the Knights Radiant? This is likely also the reason that all the other capitals can not be accessed by Oathgate from Urithiru, they barred the way in fear after Stormseat's destruction. Surely the destruction of Stormseat and much of Natanatan would have caused most of the Knights Radiant to become extremely disillusioned and willing to disband themselves. It also explains Nale's belief that surgebinders and the Knights Radiant must be prevented from rising once more, for when they turned on each other they were as devestating as a desolation.

[RShara]

Surely the destruction of Stormseat and much of Natanatan would have caused most of the Knights Radiant to become extremely disillusioned and willing to disband themselves. It also explains Nale's belief that surgebinders and the Knights Radiant must be prevented from rising once more, for when they turned on each other they were as devestating as a desolation.

 

But again, disillusionment really doesn't seem to be a strong enough reason to basically murder their best friends.

[Kaladin]

But again, disillusionment really doesn't seem to be a strong enough reason to basically murder their best friends.

We're talking about the fate of an entire nation and hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people. If their destruction is not enough to inspire the disbandment of the Knights Radiant then I don't see what could.

[kaellok]

We're talking about the fate of an entire nation and hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people. If their destruction is not enough to inspire the disbandment of the Knights Radiant then I don't see what could.

Let's take a look at three KR that we know at least a little bit about: Dalinar, Kaladin, and Shallan.  Let's further assume that Szeth has come back as a Surgebinder, and nuked Alethkar (or Surgebindery equivalent.)

 

Is there reaction really going to be to kill their spren and walk away?  Seriously?  Windrunners, in particular, are built to protect, not to run away in fear.  He would have gone after whoever was responsible, and then ended them.  The same with Dalinar, now that's he getting himself all situated; he'd go with half a nation at his side to end a threat that terrible, regardless of the potential consequences.  Shallan would convince people that they wanted to be doing that all along anyway.  KR aren't the type of people to sacrifice the living in return for the future; that's Mr T.  

 

I refuse to accept that the Recreance occurred for any mortal reasons.  So what if a faction of KR fought another faction of KR and that resulted in the destruction of a nation?  The proper response is to, you know, make sure that people with that kind of power know better than to abuse it in that way.  It's almost like, if they could have a system built-in that would help to self-correct for those kinds of things.  You know, how Kaladin realized that he was being a Class A hypocrite with Elhokar before he could advance as a KR. The personality types and thought processes of those chosen as KR are going to be fundamentally opposed to the "sacrifice a few for the greater good."  They realize that murder is murder and always wrong, even if that murder gives you information needed for the survival of the human race.

 

Something else happened, something that is not of mortal mischief (although almost definitely involved mortals, and KR) that brought about the Recreance.  

 

Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which has hitherto been referenced: namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence, though whether it be some rogueries among the Radiants' adherents or of some external origin, Avena would not suggest.

From Words of Radiance, in-world, chapter 38, page 6

From Words of Radiance, real-world, chapter 38 epigraph, page 437, hardcover

Find out what 'wicked thing of eminence' was found, and you can begin to explain the Recreance (other epigraphs from the same chapter of in-world WoR go on to talk about the Recreance itself).

[Pathfinder]

Let's take a look at three KR that we know at least a little bit about: Dalinar, Kaladin, and Shallan.  Let's further assume that Szeth has come back as a Surgebinder, and nuked Alethkar (or Surgebindery equivalent.)

 

Is there reaction really going to be to kill their spren and walk away?  Seriously?  Windrunners, in particular, are built to protect, not to run away in fear.  He would have gone after whoever was responsible, and then ended them.  The same with Dalinar, now that's he getting himself all situated; he'd go with half a nation at his side to end a threat that terrible, regardless of the potential consequences.  Shallan would convince people that they wanted to be doing that all along anyway.  KR aren't the type of people to sacrifice the living in return for the future; that's Mr T.  

 

I see your points, but regarding this point in particular. I could totally see any of them killing their spren and walking away if such were to occur. Shallan AND Kal almost did themselves. Shallan because she blames Pattern for the death of her mother, and Kal thinking his abilities to survive were a curse making him watch everyone around him die. I don't think it would be a stretch at all for any of the three, after seeing the devastation wrought by THEIR powers (and I say their because although Szeth would have a different subset of abilities, it is still from the same source, and they each have the same potential) to feel they have to stop it. If ONE of them could use their powers in such a way, what is to stop ANY of them from doing so? All it would take is a Radiant of some renown, and respect to do something they felt was in the best interest of all, (and considering how being "honorable" has been shown to manifest in many lights, that also wouldn't be a stretch at all) for them to begin to question "how long will it be before I do the same?". Then it is just a hop to think of yourself as an unstoppable monster, a skip to equate becoming that monster being connected to the power you wield, and a final leap to the conclusion that power corrupts, even despite the governing of the spren. If the spren's governing can't prevent such atrocities, then can anything they say or do be trusted? Betrayal leads to pain, pain leads to hatred, and hatred leads to the darksides heh heh heh (lol).

 

Now all of this is conjecture, and would come about in very extreme circumstances, but one thing to remember, despite their ideals, all radiants are "human". Human's are falliable, able to be manipulated, and on many occasions see and hear what they expect to/want to. The above string of causation, in my opinion at least, is not that far fetched. 

[NLe]

My personal theory is that surgebinding somehow speeds up or allows the next Desolation to take place.  One of the more outstanding differences between the timeline of the current desolations and that of the previous ones is that there has been a far longer period of peace - likely purchased through the deaths of most spren that can form Nahel bonds.

 

The KR collectively renouncing their vows - how could this happen unless they all believed it was for the greater good?  There had to be a reason why they destroyed their spren.  They probably discovered how the Odium cage worked and that surgebinding weakened the chains, or something like that.  That would explain Darkness' intent on killing any surgebinder he can lay his hands on - the fewer who can surgebind the slower the next Desolation is.

 

 

I agree but at the same time I hope this isnt right or anything close to this...because it would be lame

 

 

And I dont wanna see Kaladin kill Syl =(

 

 

Edit: then again just because it happened once doesnt mean it has to happen again...i hope

Edited June 6, 2014 by NLe

[Shaggai]

Let's take a look at three KR that we know at least a little bit about: Dalinar, Kaladin, and Shallan.  Let's further assume that Szeth has come back as a Surgebinder, and nuked Alethkar (or Surgebindery equivalent.)

 

Is there reaction really going to be to kill their spren and walk away?  Seriously?  Windrunners, in particular, are built to protect, not to run away in fear.  He would have gone after whoever was responsible, and then ended them.  The same with Dalinar, now that's he getting himself all situated; he'd go with half a nation at his side to end a threat that terrible, regardless of the potential consequences.  Shallan would convince people that they wanted to be doing that all along anyway.  KR aren't the type of people to sacrifice the living in return for the future; that's Mr T.  

 

I refuse to accept that the Recreance occurred for any mortal reasons.  So what if a faction of KR fought another faction of KR and that resulted in the destruction of a nation?  The proper response is to, you know, make sure that people with that kind of power know better than to abuse it in that way.  It's almost like, if they could have a system built-in that would help to self-correct for those kinds of things.  You know, how Kaladin realized that he was being a Class A hypocrite with Elhokar before he could advance as a KR. The personality types and thought processes of those chosen as KR are going to be fundamentally opposed to the "sacrifice a few for the greater good."  They realize that murder is murder and always wrong, even if that murder gives you information needed for the survival of the human race.

 

Something else happened, something that is not of mortal mischief (although almost definitely involved mortals, and KR) that brought about the Recreance.  

Find out what 'wicked thing of eminence' was found, and you can begin to explain the Recreance (other epigraphs from the same chapter of in-world WoR go on to talk about the Recreance itself).

The "wicked thing of eminence" almost reminds me of the thing with the tomb of Alcatraz the First. If it turns out that Nalan's suspicions are correct, and Surgebinding causes Desolations, that would be a good enough reason for a lot of the orders to abandon their spren.

[kaellok]

The "wicked thing of eminence" almost reminds me of the thing with the tomb of Alcatraz the First. If it turns out that Nalan's suspicions are correct, and Surgebinding causes Desolations, that would be a good enough reason for a lot of the orders to abandon their spren.

Right.  If it were something related to the very nature of Surgebinding, then I would buy that as plausible.  But just because some KR are capable of being terrible people?  No.  Just no.  I could see some KR abandoning their oaths and giving up, but not a majority, let alone the vast majority--especially not the Windrunners, at all.  How Kaladin killed Syl was due to a betrayal of his oaths, but not with the deliberate, en masse execution that occurred during the Recreance.

[Shaggai]

Right.  If it were something related to the very nature of Surgebinding, then I would buy that as plausible.  But just because some KR are capable of being terrible people?  No.  Just no.  I could see some KR abandoning their oaths and giving up, but not a majority, let alone the vast majority--especially not the Windrunners, at all.  How Kaladin killed Syl was due to a betrayal of his oaths, but not with the deliberate, en masse execution that occurred during the Recreance.

I'm sorry, but could you clarify your point? I don't quite see how this applies to my post. 

[Aether]

There is a WoB somewhere that states that planets (=Shardworlds) have souls as well. Surgebinding (or any high Investiture magic system) could be responsible for causing cracks in the planets' souls, allowing foreign Investiture (read: Desolations) to enter.

 

Now, someone will likely now point out this particular WoB:

Q: Is a Desolation caused when a Herald breaks under torture?

A: This person is asking the right kinds of questions.
<source>

This, together with the fact that Taravangian (IIRC) apparently seems to think that it was Taln's stubbornness that prevented a desolation to happen for the last 4'500 years, makes it seem like it is indeed the Heralds' fortitude that determines when a Desolation occurs. But these are not mutually exclusive: While a Herald's breaking point might trigger the desolations, Surgebinding (=use of Investiture) might be the reason for how they are able to occur in the first place.

 

I feel like there is more to the Recreance than the Radiance just realising that they were powerful and capable of corruption (and I am not entirely sure they are corruptible (in the traditional sense) in the first place). That they realised that their powers might be dangerous to Roshar itself seems like a better candidate, but I am still not convinced. I expect Brandon to make this "wicked thing of eminence" quite spectacular indeed.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Aether

[kaellok]

I'm sorry, but could you clarify your point? I don't quite see how this applies to my post. 

Sorry, I was agreeing with you there    And then I went on to disagree with other people who think the Recreance was caused by, say, fear of a KR going rogue and killing everyone.  It..wasn't the most clear statements I've ever made.

[Dun Sphere]

While rereading WoR, I came across the line from pg. 204, "You saw a warrior among the Alethi using ancient powers, and many others confirmed it to us. Surgebindings have returned to men. The spren again betray us." Could it be that the KR discovered the secret of the voidbringers bonding spren and realized that they could also become voidbringers or something worse? 

[soulcastJam]

I am wondering if the reason behind the Recreance has more to do with Honor.  Maybe the Radiants were convinced that they could give Honor an edge on Odium if they returned power to him, so they sacrificed their nahel bond.  Or maybe the "wicked thing of eminence" has to do with the splintering of Honor.  Were their actions responsible for the splintering or in response to a plot to splinter Honor?  

 

I think I'm correct in saying that Honor was splintered post-Recreance (because he set up the vision showing the Recreance) but correct me if I'm wrong.

[kaellok]

 

I think I'm correct in saying that Honor was splintered post-Recreance (because he set up the vision showing the Recreance) but correct me if I'm wrong.

I can't recall for sure, but I seem to remember reading that Dalinar came to the conclusion that what he saw were events that happened as witnessed by Honor; I think that the Stormfather explains this at the end of WoR, but I'm stuck at work right now and can't check.  Assuming that this is correct, then that would indeed mean that Honor's Splintering happened post-Recreance.  I do remember for sure the Stormfather saying that he was, essentially, given a command to transmit the visions to people; a command that he could not disobey.  Given the message of the Almighty (unite them!  let the Knights Radiant return once more! etc.) I would bet lots and lots of my own money on Splintering happening post-Recreance.

 

Semi-related, there's a WoB that while the Heralds breaking with the Oathpact certainly didn't help anything, there wasn't a direct tie between that abandonment and Honor being Splintered.

[hoser]

The timing of Honor's shattering relative to the Recreance is a matter of some debate.  This is not to argue one way or the other, but just to expose soome of the reasons for either side.

I ... I think I'm correct in saying that Honor was splintered post-Recreance (because he set up the vision showing the Recreance) but correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I can't recall for sure, ... then that would indeed mean that Honor's Splintering happened post-Recreance.  ...  Given the message of the Almighty (unite them!  let the Knights Radiant return once more! etc.) I would bet lots and lots of my own money on Splintering happening post-Recreance.

 

The Recreance vision is an argument for the splintering being post-Recreance.  Not all the visions are of the past relative to Tanavast recording them.  As he says in chapter 75 of tWoK:

"Most of what I show you are scenes that I have seen directly, " the figure said. "But some, such as this one are born out of my fears. ..."

The final vision seems clearly to be of the future, so it seems possible that the Recreance vision is of the future relative to the recordings.  The Recreance vision is obviously less fantastic than the final vision, but it could be in the near future, which Tanavast could have seen with greater precision. 

 

The epigraph at the beginning of Chapter 2 of tWoK (Chapter title: Honor is Dead) seems to be from the POV of a Radiant and suggests that the Shattering occurred pre-Recreance:

Ten orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone?

[StormDamned]

I think it's somewhat obvious what happened to the Knights Radiant. After they succeeded in defending the world from Odium and the Voidbringers, what would their oaths dictate they do next.....? They would then be forced to defend the people from themselves; fighting in wars and other conflicts between groups of their own people. They ended up killing their own brethren. Conflicts likely escalated or even were begun in the first place because the people assumed the Radiants would protect them. The Knights had little choice but to forswear their oaths in order to stop the senseless slaughter of their own people.< Edit: The battle that the soldiers in Dalinar's vision talked about the Knights Radiant fighting before they gave up their shards would then be one of these conflicts.> Afterward, the people hated them for not fighting for their side, which each group certainly felt was the right and just side of each conflict. After the Recreance, the losing sides of any wars no doubt blamed the Radiants for not protecting them from the eventual victors. Even the winning sides could have claimed that there would have been much less carnage had the Knights assisted them. It may even be that the whole situation was orchestrated by Odium as a way to corrupt or get rid of the Knights Radiant. Even if it wasn't a conscious decision by Odium, his influence in the world would definately have contributed to the wars that were the Knights' eventual downfall.

 

This is all conjecture, of course. No matter how fitting this explanation may seem, Mr. Sanderson can take any direction he chooses in the story and so until he writes it, no guesses can be correct.

Edited September 4, 2014 by StormDamned

[kari-no-sugata]

I think it's somewhat obvious what happened to the Knights Radiant. After they succeeded in defending the world from Odium and the Voidbringers, what would their oaths dictate they do next.....? They would then be forced to defend the people from themselves; fighting in wars and other conflicts between groups of their own people. They ended up killing their own brethren. Conflicts likely escalated or even were begun in the first place because the people assumed the Radiants would protect them. The Knights had little choice but to forswear their oaths in order to stop the senseless slaughter of their own people. Afterward, the people hated them for not fighting for their side, which each group certainly felt was the right and just side of each conflict. After the Recreance, the losing sides of any wars no doubt blamed the Radiants for not protecting them from the eventual victors. Even the winning sides could have claimed that there would have been much less carnage had the Knights assisted them. It may even be that the whole situation was orchestrated by Odium as a way to corrupt or get rid of the Knights Radiant. Even if it wasn't a conscious decision by Odium, his influence in the world would definately have contributed to the wars that were the Knights' eventual downfall.

 

This is all conjecture, of course. No matter how fitting this explanation may seem, Mr. Sanderson can take any direction he chooses in the story and so until he writes it, no guesses can be correct.

 

Hi StormDamned, welcome to the forums. Nice first post

 

My own thinking is pretty similar. In the vision Dalinar gets of the Recreance in tWoK I think the "other side" in the conflict is another (human) nation and there's also Radiants fighting on the other side. We know that there were thousands of Radiants at the time of the Recrance (or at least, Pattern says that thousands of spren died at it) and there's no known force that could stand up to so many Radiants (except the Voidbringers, who haven't been seen since the Last Desolation).

 

I don't think this is the only option but I think it's the simplest and most interesting.

[Moogle]

Taravangian says a 'secret' he has/is looking for destroyed the Knights Radiant, so I don't think it's as simple as the Radiants ending up fighting and slaughtering humanity senselessly. Besides, I don't think that's quite a good enough reason to condemn your best friend (as spren probably become in most cases) to an eternity to torture because you're trying to follow local leaders. And what of the non-combat orders? I sincerely doubt the Elsecallers were busy getting involved in the wars of men, if Jasnah is a typical example of one. Why would they end up betraying their oaths if it was just fighting?

 

My favorite speculation at this point is that the Radiants bring the Desolations, as Nalan claims. If they're part of the Oathpact, they'd count as Heralds, so it'd make sense Nalan was upset at them for keeping the Oathpact running when he and eight other Heralds decided they wanted to break it.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Moogle

[Left]

 

My favorite speculation at this point is that the Radiants bring the Desolations, as Nalan claims. If they're part of the Oathpact, they'd count as Heralds, so it'd make sense Nalan was upset at them for keeping the Oathpact running when he and eight other Heralds decided they wanted to break it.

 

But in the prologue to tWoK Jezrien and the other Herald 9 (can't remember his name right now) were talking about how humanity would react to the Heralds abandoning them, and they say that," Ah well, they still have the radiants, they'll be fine." (paraphrasing obviously, I only have the audio of the books so it's hard to reference stuff.)

[Moogle]

But in the prologue to tWoK Jezrien and the other Herald 9 (can't remember his name right now) were talking about how humanity would react to the Heralds abandoning them, and they say that," Ah well, they still have the radiants, they'll be fine." (paraphrasing obviously, I only have the audio of the books so it's hard to reference stuff.)

 

Nalan and the rest may have only realized/learned that Radiants were part of the Oathpact later on. Nalan didn't immediately start murdering Radiants, or want to, or else Jezrien would have brought it up.

[weebojello]

Is the "Ancient of Stones" involved? I cannot remember the name exactly, but I recollect from either Hoid / Taravangian that the Ancient of Stones was holding the desolation. That it "cracking" may be what's having the desolation occur.

 

But in reality, if the WOB is correct in that the desolation timer starts when the heralds all leave Roshar for Braize, then technically this would explain why Voidbringers were continually popping back. The desolation was not over...and Odium was more than content to have himself a lot of time to subtly change the perceptions of the KR.

 

Could not the last epigraph relate to Heralds directly? What I'm driving at is that the KR figured out that they were in a neverending desolation because of the Heralds. I believe the KR attacked the Heralds. I believe the Bondsmiths used the power of the spren that collectively was bonded to the KR to try and "plug" the hole on Roshar, insulating Roshar from Braize. The Ancient of Stones would be located at the nexus / waypoint from where Braize / Roshar have a connection. I think the Ancient of Stones is in fact one of the Heralds that's been "cemented" by the Bondsmith by using the power of the relationship between the spren and the KR. It is this Herald that's keeping the full force of Odium from coming to bear on Roshar, and that bond is breaking as spren return back to the KR.

 

Boy, that sounds confusing.

 

In full disclosure, this was my lunch hour of reading 17th Shard, and now I'm back to deciphering some code here, so my mind is a bit loopy right now.

[Patrick Star]

The Secret?

Their mothers were all hamsters and their fathers smelt of elderberries!

[Moogle]

Is the "Ancient of Stones" involved? I cannot remember the name exactly, but I recollect from either Hoid / Taravangian that the Ancient of Stones was holding the desolation. That it "cracking" may be what's having the desolation occur.

 

The Ancient of Stones is most likely Taln. (His Order was the Stonewards, and they were associated with rock/stone.)

 

A Desolation starts when a Herald 'breaks' under the torture and leaves Damnation. This is probably why there hasn't been a Desolation in forever on Roshar - Taln is super stubborn and strong willed, and refused to break.

 

WoB:

Q:  What caused a Desolation to end? Was it just the defeat of Odium's forces? Because the Desolations start when the Heralds break under torture.

A:  Because the Heralds can no longer be in existence. There is a certain period of time that they can be there, and after that, if they're there, they will start a new one. So the Heralds do need to leave for a Desolation to end.

Q:  Oh. So they've got a time limit.

A:  They do. Otherwise the Desolation will start again. What they discovered is not all of them have to. As long as one remains, the Desolation will not start again.

(source)

Edited August 28, 2014 by Moogle

[weebojello]

So, I was hesitant to say that it was Taln, but I do think that he is, in fact, the Herald in question.

 

Moogle, I'm a bit confused. I read that as they have to leave Roshar to stop a Desolation. When they "break under torture" in Damnation (Braize), they are exelled and start a new Desolation on Roshar. But apparently, based on the last answer, as long as one Herald remains in Damnation, the Desolation cannot start.

 

BUT, what is stated is that if they do NOT leave for Damnation, one will start again. So this is where I get confused reading it - The Desolation in the prologue to Way of Kings technically never ended because there were all (minus Taln), still in existence.

 

Furthermore, other Desolations started because the Heralds never left.

 

Back to the idea that the Ancient of Stones / Taln connection. The idea is that the bondsmiths realized all of this. They discovered the oathpact, realized that only one of them was actually adhering to it, and gave him as much support as possible to stave off Desolations by sacrificing all bonds.

 

What bothers me about the Recreance happening - and it must be said, what an amazing event to come up - is that Honor was most likely alive to see the Recreance. He was alive at the last Desolation to see the Oathpact sundered (well, at least attempted), and yet ... didn't really do anything. Honor, while being just, would also be somewhat vengeful when a bond / oath is broken, and frankly, I have a hard time imagining him just sitting idle the entire time while the Oathpact was being nullified (or at least attempted).