How did the Recreance Happen?

[Moogle]

Moogle, I'm a bit confused. I read that as they have to leave Roshar to stop a Desolation. When they "break under torture" in Damnation (Braize), they are exelled and start a new Desolation on Roshar. But apparently, based on the last answer, as long as one Herald remains in Damnation, the Desolation cannot start.

 

BUT, what is stated is that if they do NOT leave for Damnation, one will start again. So this is where I get confused reading it - The Desolation in the prologue to Way of Kings technically never ended because there were all (minus Taln), still in existence.

 

Furthermore, other Desolations started because the Heralds never left.

 

The way I'm reading it is that one Herald has to leave to Damnation for the Desolation to 'end' (else Odium just starts 'er up again), and once all the Herald who are in Damnation leave, then the Desolation starts up again.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Moogle

[Kelek's Breath he/him]

 

But in reality, if the WOB is correct in that the desolation timer starts when the heralds all leave Roshar for Braize, then technically this would explain why Voidbringers were continually popping back. The desolation was not over...and Odium was more than content to have himself a lot of time to subtly change the perceptions of the KR.

 

This is an interesting idea. I like it.

 

 

My own thinking is pretty similar. In the vision Dalinar gets of the Recreance in tWoK I think the "other side" in the conflict is another (human) nation and there's also Radiants fighting on the other side. We know that there were thousands of Radiants at the time of the Recrance (or at least, Pattern says that thousands of spren died at it) and there's no known force that could stand up to so many Radiants (except the Voidbringers, who haven't been seen since the Last Desolation).

 

I doubt that it's as clear as that. Remember Dalinar's vision of the Recreance.

 

 

Dalinar's vision atFeverstone Keep, Ch. 52, pg. 905(paperback)

"But why?" the darkeyed officer demanded."Why are the Radiants coming here? They should be fightingthe devils on the front lines"

 

I doubt the darkeyed officer would label humans, and especially other Radiants, as "devils". Could it be Listeners? Voidbringers,but smaller groups than at previous Desolations?

Edited August 29, 2014 by Kelek's Breath

[kaellok he/him]

 

I doubt the darkeyed officer would label humans, and especially other Radiants, as "devils". Could it be Listeners? Voidbringers,but smaller groups than at previous Desolations?

Humans on Earth have been labeling other humans devils, demons, pigs, rats, weasels, snakes, and far, far worse for literally thousands of years.  This deliberate attempt to dehumanize your foes to make it easier to justify and rationalize killing them is fairly well known.  IF there was fighting amongst humans, I would be surprised to not see this--especially if the fighting is particularly bad.

[StormDamned]

My favorite speculation at this point is that the Radiants bring the Desolations, as Nalan claims. If they're part of the Oathpact, they'd count as Heralds, so it'd make sense Nalan was upset at them for keeping the Oathpact running when he and eight other Heralds decided they wanted to break it.

 

 

I don't think the Oathpact has anything to do with what Nalan is worried will bring another desolation. I believe what he is concerned about is the Nahel Bond, the binding of spren to people, and how it will lead to voidspren binding with people to create Voidbringers, who in turn bring the desolations. I'm not sure exactly why voidspren might need regular spren to take the first step but I expect Mr. Sanderson to elaborate on the subject soon.

[Moogle]

I don't think the Oathpact has anything to do with what Nalan is worried will bring another desolation. I believe what he is concerned about is the Nahel Bond, the binding of spren to people, and how it will lead to voidspren binding with people to create Voidbringers, who in turn bring the desolations. I'm not sure exactly why voidspren might need regular spren to take the first step but I expect Mr. Sanderson to elaborate on the subject soon.

 

That's an interesting idea! We do have a WoB that it would be hard but possible to do that, though:

Q:  Can anyone other than a Parshendi bond a voidspren? Like, can a human bond a voidspren?

A:  That is theoretically possible but humans are not good at bonding spren in the same way.

(source)

 

(In other news, linking things and selecting text via touch is surprisingly difficult on this tablet. I hope that worked out...)

Edited September 4, 2014 by Moogle

[Kal973]

I must admit...

I read the books and I don't understand  Recreance.

I read the whole thread and I still don't understand  Recreance.

Really I feel stupid with this whole Recreance mess.

 

Something terrible must have happened to kill all the sprens... (okay, the KR broke their oaths, but how ? okay, they might have lost purpose after the end of the desolation, and there might have been dissensions within their ranks... but still...!) I don't buy it...I don't think the KR would have intentionnally broken their oaths, and chosen to kill their sprens. I don't know. It just doesn't feel right. We can see it with Kal and Syl / Shallan and Pattern, KR and sprens evolve in such a symbiotic way, at some point decide to kill your own spren would mean suicide! 

You would have to be very honorable to sacrifice everything you are, everything you love, even your storming spren, for the sake of human kind, and if KR were already fighting each other, there's no way they were this noble, there's no way all of them would have agreed to do it at the same time...

 And if that's what they did, why on hell would they be called traitors ? It makes no sense to me ! The Herlads were the traitors, not the KR.

 

This scene in Dalinar's vision, the KR attack the fortress and then suddenly the KR stop and and they leave their shards and they seem to act like a bunch of zombies. As if, suddenly, bang ! All the spren are dead. But the KR did not do anything special. It's like, something happened somewhere else and the spren died very suddenly but the KR we see in the vision are not directly responsible for that, they just grieve and there is no reason for them to fight anymore.  

We miss something here, something that happened in the cognitive realm. But again if it was the spren's decision (collective suicide or something like that), why would the Stormfather be so angry with human beings ?

 

Okay, then we have the Stormfather and he says he is the spren of the Allmighty and we know that the Allmighty died killed by Odium (who the frack is Odium, I don't know - okay, he is pure hate/destruction, and he creates the Everstorm, but what is he ? A spren ? Like the Stormfather ? Or... some sort of God, like the Allmighty ? The God of destruction ? Or what ? I'm lost T_T).

Because then : if the Allmighty was not God... then what was he...

A random guy with great powers coming from another solar system ?

A herald ?

And when did he die ?

Before the first désolations ? Before the Recreance ? During the Recreance ?

And why would the storming Heralds have to suffer an eternity of pain, tortured until they break, to prevent the desolation ? And how do their sufferings stop Odium and prevent the Desolations ?  How does this work ??

There's one thing I understand : and it's  why the Heralds gave up their oaths (and their blades). Their fate sucked too much. Poor Taln did not have any choice. But then what is the difference between a Herald and a Knight Radiant  ? Herlads were above Radiants. What are Heralds, angels who fell from the sky or were they humans once ? 

(Wait, do you think that the spren of the KR could have died because/when the Heralds left ?)

 

I must say that I feel as stupid as Taravangian in a bad day...

If someone was kind enough to enlighten me, I would be so happy.

[Moogle]

Something terrible must have happened to kill all the sprens... (okay, the KR broke their oaths, but how ? okay, they might have lost purpose after the end of the desolation, and there might have been dissensions within their ranks... but still...!) I don't buy it...I don't think the KR would have intentionnally broken their oaths, and chosen to kill their sprens. I don't know. It just doesn't feel right. We can see it with Kal and Syl / Shallan and Pattern, KR and sprens evolve in such a symbiotic way, at some point decide to kill your own spren would mean suicide! 

 

Well, this is exactly what happened. We see Windrunners and Stonewards in Dalinar's vision coming forward and throwing away their Shards, and then they stop glowing and screaming (of spren) starts that Dalinar hears. It's pretty apparent that all at once they decided to kill their spren and break their oaths. We don't know why, but it is apparent it did happen. (Except, one Order apparently did not do it.)

 

This also fits in with why the Stormfather is angry at humans: they did kill their spren.

 

You would have to be very honorable to sacrifice everything you are, everything you love, even your storming spren, for the sake of human kind, and if KR were already fighting each other, there's no way they were this noble, there's no way all of them would have agreed to do it at the same time...

 And if that's what they did, why on hell would they be called traitors ? It makes no sense to me ! The Herlads were the traitors, not the KR.

 

There is little evidence the KR were fighting each other. In Dalinar's vision, the men talk about the Radiants fighting "the devils" on the front lines. It's entirely possible they were fighting listeners, but maybe they were fighting other humans. We don't know.

 

As to the Heralds, the Heralds fought for humanity and suffered unimaginable pain for hundreds of years to keep helping humanity out. Eventually, they gave up because they couldn't handle it. How are they "traitors"? Would it be better for them to have never helped humanity out and never joined the Oathpact?

 

The KR are in a similar boat. They found out a secret, according to the Diagram, and this destroyed them and caused them to give up their oaths and kill their spren. Their abandonment of the war (fighting the "devils") is what caused people to call them traitors. Or, perhaps, people took up the Radiants' Shards and started killing each other and everyone incorrectly thought they were Radiants, which made people think they betrayed them.

 

Okay, then we have the Stormfather and he says he is the spren of the Allmighty and we know that the Allmighty died killed by Odium (who the frack is Odium, I don't know - okay, he is pure hate/destruction, and he creates the Everstorm, but what is he ? A spren ? Like the Stormfather ? Or... some sort of God, like the Allmighty ? The God of destruction ? Or what ? I'm lost T_T).

 

The Almighty's "real name" is Honor. Honor, Odium, and Cultivation, are "gods" on Roshar and they all represent one ideal or concept. There's sixteen "gods" in the Cosmere called Shards of Adonalsium. Odium is essentially a force of pure hate, though it is held and directed by a man who took up the power named Rayse. Tanavast was the name of the man who held Honor and was killed by Odium.

 

You know how Kaladin breathes in Stormlight and becomes more powerful and can do magic with the Stormlight? Honor/Odium/Cultivation are like that, except they took in a lot more of something like Stormlight, so much they ascended into godhood.

 

The spren come from the Shards, they're sort of miniature versions of the gods themselves. (The Radiants' spren are mixes of Honor and Cultivation. Syl is mostly Honor.)

 

I'd recommend reading the Mistborn series to get a better idea on what they are. (Specifically, book 3 deals with the idea of Shards.)

 

And when did he die ?

Before the first désolations ? Before the Recreance ? During the Recreance ?

 

He died sometime before The Way of Kings, and we don't know any more. His visions show the Recreance happening, so he was probably still alive when it happened.

 

And why would the storming Heralds have to suffer an eternity of pain, tortured until they break, to prevent the desolation ? And how do their sufferings stop Odium and prevent the Desolations ?  How does this work ??

 

We don't know. Honor may have made a deal with Odium to have "honorable combat" (Desolations) every once in a while instead of fighting directly.

 

There's one thing I understand : and it's  why the Heralds gave up their oaths (and their blades). Their fate sucked too much. Poor Taln did not have any choice. But then what is the difference between a Herald and a Knight Radiant  ? Herlads were above Radiants. What are Heralds, angels who fell from the sky or were they humans once ? 

 

Heralds were humans once, probably given power by Honor. We don't know, though. There's beings similar to Heralds in the book Warbreaker. You could try reading that, maybe it would help.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Moogle

[Kal973]

.

Thanks for the answers  .  

I've already ordered Warbreaker, it's the next book on my list. I hope it will help.

[Stormwalker]

I just thought of a theory for this this, and although I can already see holes in it, maybe it will give someone else an idea.

 

Perhaps the KR abandonment of their Oaths wasn't as intentional as I believe people in this thread seem to believe it is. Perhaps Mr. T's secret that destroyed the KR was that they had already done something against their Oaths.

 

For example, suppose that surgebinding indeed causes/hastens the desolations, as Nale believes. Thus the KR have been causing desolations, which I would imagine might go against some of their Oaths (for example, perhaps this goes against 'journey before destination'). Furthermore, suppose the KR didn't originally know this—allowing them to make the Oaths in the first place—and at the time of the Recreance, they somehow learn this fact. As each KR learns that they are contributing to the next desolation, they realize it is a betrayal of their Oaths, and their Spren die. Hence, 9/10 of the KR orders abandon their Oaths at around the same time. Perhaps then Skybreakers merely say 'well, there isn't any law that says it's illegal to start a desolation' and decide they didn't really do anything bad, and hence they are the order that stayed around. After their spren die, the Windrunners/Stonewards/whoever-else summon their shards and leave them for humanity as dalinar sees in his vision (perhaps to give the humans a chance in the next desolation?).

 

The main problem with the above, of course, is that (as well as it admittedly being a very flimsy example of breaking an oath) is that of the spren's believing the KR betrayed them. The only explanations I can think of is that they disagreed that this would count as a broken oath or that they blaimed the radiants for starting the bonds in the first place.

 

Anyway, as I said, after coming up with the theory (that is, the specific example given), even I didn't believe it,    so feel free to poke more holes in it yourselves. In any case, the above was really just one example of a way the radiants could have already broken their oaths without knowing it. The point was that this could be a way for all the radiants to betray their oaths at around the same time.

 

EDIT: Spelling and grammar and stuff.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Stormwalker

[Andrew C]

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/17226-theory-to-explain-darknesss-actions/ has my thoughts on the matter. 

 

Summary:

 

- The Oathpact transports the Heralds to Damnation between Desolations

- As long as one (or maybe all) Heralds can stand the torture, Desolations cannot occur

- Surgebinding on Roshar causes some form of anguish (mental or physical pain) to Heralds in Damnation

- Someone convinced the Radiants to make a 'heroic sacrifice' and kill their spren in a single attack. This bought more time without Desolations as it let Taln endure longer, but it made sure that the next one will be much worse as humanity will be less able to fight back.

[rbnguevara]

Hmm. I think I might have just cracked it - a really simple solution that doesn't require any assumptions. I'll try to explain it with a Q/A format:

 

Q: What was the Radiants' goal in the Recreance?

A: To permanently end the existence of the Radiants by deliberately betraying the spren.

 

Q: Why in Damnation would they want to do that?

A: Because the Radiants were now the biggest threat left to mankind - the Voidbringers had been defeated. The Radiants had no enemies left except themselves.

 

Q: How can the Radiants be a threat - don't their Oaths and spren guides make them safe?

A:  Nobody is perfect. We see in Dalinar's flashback with Nohadon that Radiants can start wars or similar - some Surgerbinder called Alakavish. Radiants can be lied to and manipulated.

 

Q: Didn't Nohadon do something to make Radiants safer?

A: Possibly, but we don't know if he could somehow change the underlying nature of the Nahel bond and Surgebinders. Even then, no system is foolproof - particularly if the assumptions underlying the system end (eg that Desolations will keep on happening). Honor himself said that Odium realised that mankind will turn against itself if left alone.

 

Q: So how could the Radiants turn against mankind without betraying their Oaths?

A: Imagine a small country with a big neighbour and that the king of the big country is not a Radiant. Nothing would prevent the king of the big country using conventional troops to invade the small country in an act of greed (while lying and manipulating things to keep his Radiants from stopping it). There would be Radiants in the small country - they would be aghast and motivated to stop the invasion, by force if necessary. We've seen how deadly a single Shardbearer can be on the battlefield against normal troops - imagine what a Surgebinder could do. We know from Adolin's case with Sadeas that not all Radiants view things the same way. Just a few Radiants of the more aggressive Orders could have a huge impact. Next, the king of the big country lies and manipulates Radiants from his country and some decide to help. We now have Radiants fighting Radiants without either breaking their Oaths.

 

Q: Even if that happened, how could the Radiants deliberately murder their own spren?

A: Better for some "living ideas" to die than humans. Radiants swear to protect humans not everything - else they wouldn't even be able to eat plants let alone animals. Their spren might be their best friend in some cases but few would want to be in a situation where they have to kill humans.

 

Q: Some Radiants skills are poorly suited for the battlefield so why do all Orders disband?

A: If the biggest threat to mankind is the Radiants themselves then they have to ensure that there'll never be Radiants again, of any order. The more the spren see it as a universal betrayal the less likely they are to ever trust humans again.

 

Q: So how do you think the Recreance itself began?

A: Once things escalate to a high enough level even the Radiants themselves would begin to question their existence. Most are enlightened to some degree so if no better solution can be found then the only solution remaining is universal disbanding. If all sides can basically agree to disband on the same day then that ensures no one group can take advantage.

 

Q: Isn't it a bad idea to leave the Blades and Plate behind?

A: I suspect the Radiants didn't anticipate that normal humans would be able to figure out how to make decent use of the Blades and Plate long term - the method of attaching a gem to the pommel of a Blade was discovered some decades after the Recreance. Something similar might have occurred with Plate. The Radiants might have mistakenly assumed that it would be more of a short term problem. Either way, nobody would be able to make new Blades and Plate. They probably had to make a very clear and blunt demonstration of their disbanding for all to see.

 

Q: Shouldn't they have at least explained this all though?

A: It's actually better if the humans revile the Radiants too, in this scenario - gives the humans no reason to want the Radiants back.

 

Q: What prevents this all from happening again?

A: Nothing.

I agree with this and if you look at WoR ch 38 listed above by Glyph Rambleman and Artisan of Entropy. as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine. Subterfuge means deceit. So what if Darkeness/Nalan of the skybreakers deceived the rest he lied to them and convinced them that unless they abandoned there oaths another desolation would come and maybe he made them believe this is why the Heralds quit. It would be the greatest lie ever and would destroy the KR because they would be obligated to quit to save mankind from the desolations. This would only work if they didn't have a deep understanding of why the desolations occurred in the first place. If none of the heralds were present to oppose this train of thought and with no way to commune with Honor, it is believable that this would have been the lie that lead to the KR willingly and painfully leaving the orders. The skybreakers stayed because they are the police force that needs to make sure no future KR were ever created again in ignorance. I'm tired and that's all I have for now please forgive my sloppiness just had to post this before I crash.

[kaellok he/him]

 It would be the greatest lie ever and would destroy the KR because they would be obligated to quit to save mankind from the desolations. 

Except that this would be putting death before life, weakness before strength, destination before journey--and all for an incredibly uncertain future, with absolutely no guarantee that things will be better.  Imagine that you're trying to talk to armed robbers inside a bank who have taken hostages, and they say they'll start murdering these hostages unless you kill your best friend.  It is ridiculous, in the extreme, to think that this will actually result in a good, positive solution.

 

The Recreance is one of those areas where I'm a little bit nervous, because storytelling-wise, I have no idea how Sanderson can get it right without me having to suspend incredibly way too much disbelief.  ie, I can't think of anything that fits with the very core of the Radiants and makes plausible sense.  None of the posted theories so far do that, either, in my mind.

[hoser he/him]

This is really interesting.  I can't believe I missed it.  I do see some problems w/it, however.

Hmm. I think I might have just cracked it - a really simple solution that doesn't require any assumptions. I'll try to explain it with a Q/A format:

 

Q: What was the Radiants' goal in the Recreance?

A: To permanently end the existence of the Radiants by deliberately betraying the spren.

 

Q: Why in Damnation would they want to do that?

A: Because the Radiants were now the biggest threat left to mankind - the Voidbringers had been defeated. The Radiants had no enemies left except themselves.

 

Q: How can the Radiants be a threat - don't their Oaths and spren guides make them safe?

A:  Nobody is perfect. We see in Dalinar's flashback with Nohadon that Radiants can start wars or similar - some Surgerbinder called Alakavish. Radiants can be lied to and manipulated.

 

Q: Didn't Nohadon do something to make Radiants safer?

A: Possibly, but we don't know if he could somehow change the underlying nature of the Nahel bond and Surgebinders. Even then, no system is foolproof - particularly if the assumptions underlying the system end (eg that Desolations will keep on happening). Honor himself said that Odium realised that mankind will turn against itself if left alone.

 

Q: So how could the Radiants turn against mankind without betraying their Oaths?

A: Imagine a small country with a big neighbour and that the king of the big country is not a Radiant. Nothing would prevent the king of the big country using conventional troops to invade the small country in an act of greed (while lying and manipulating things to keep his Radiants from stopping it). There would be Radiants in the small country - they would be aghast and motivated to stop the invasion, by force if necessary. We've seen how deadly a single Shardbearer can be on the battlefield against normal troops - imagine what a Surgebinder could do. We know from Adolin's case with Sadeas that not all Radiants view things the same way. Just a few Radiants of the more aggressive Orders could have a huge impact. Next, the king of the big country lies and manipulates Radiants from his country and some decide to help. We now have Radiants fighting Radiants without either breaking their Oaths.

 

Q: Even if that happened, how could the Radiants deliberately murder their own spren?

A: Better for some "living ideas" to die than humans. Radiants swear to protect humans not everything - else they wouldn't even be able to eat plants let alone animals. Their spren might be their best friend in some cases but few would want to be in a situation where they have to kill humans.

 

Q: Some Radiants skills are poorly suited for the battlefield so why do all Orders disband?

A: If the biggest threat to mankind is the Radiants themselves then they have to ensure that there'll never be Radiants again, of any order. The more the spren see it as a universal betrayal the less likely they are to ever trust humans again.

 

Q: So how do you think the Recreance itself began?

A: Once things escalate to a high enough level even the Radiants themselves would begin to question their existence. Most are enlightened to some degree so if no better solution can be found then the only solution remaining is universal disbanding. If all sides can basically agree to disband on the same day then that ensures no one group can take advantage.

 

Q: Isn't it a bad idea to leave the Blades and Plate behind?

A: I suspect the Radiants didn't anticipate that normal humans would be able to figure out how to make decent use of the Blades and Plate long term - the method of attaching a gem to the pommel of a Blade was discovered some decades after the Recreance. Something similar might have occurred with Plate. The Radiants might have mistakenly assumed that it would be more of a short term problem. Either way, nobody would be able to make new Blades and Plate. They probably had to make a very clear and blunt demonstration of their disbanding for all to see.

 

Q: Shouldn't they have at least explained this all though?

A: It's actually better if the humans revile the Radiants too, in this scenario - gives the humans no reason to want the Radiants back.

 

Q: What prevents this all from happening again?

A: Nothing.

The Heralds lied about having won.  We have WoB that Honor was still around after the Heralds packed it in.  So the first four assumptions are:

• The Radiants believe the lies of the Heralds.
• Honor does not let the Radiants know that the Heralds have lied.  But wait.  We know from the visions that Honor thinks the only hope for people is the return of the Radiants.  Why would he not clue the Radiants in about their future necessity?
• The Radiants' prophetic abilities don't let them know that the Heralds lied. 
• The spren either don't know or don't tell the Radiants that the Heralds lied. 

This is the premise and it seems farfetched to me.  In the Starfalls vision, the Radiant tells Dalinar that their purpose is to ward against Desolations.  The fact that they stayed together long after the Heralds quit indicates that they knew the Heralds were lying. 

 

The Radiants are a supranational organization that maintains the ten Silver Kingdoms with stable borders.  These kingdoms did not fight each other. 

The kings do not have Radiants like the Alethi princes own ardents.  The Radiants are coherent orders until the end, as we can see from the Recreance. 

Sure there may have been individual traitors and disagreements between the orders, but there is no support that I know of to suggest that some members of one order would try to kill a force including Radiants from the same order without discussing the matter. 

The Radiants had knowledge and technology that they didn't share w/the muggle kings.  That indicates that the Radiants were more loyal to their orders than the kings. 

 

Another assumption is that the Radiants didn't care about the artifacts left behind.  But why would they leave only certain artifacts around?  Why soulcasters, but not the healing fabrials?  The fact that the Radiants deliberately left only certain fabrials behind suggests that there was a purpose. 

 

It is an interesting theory, but for me it raises more questions than it answers. 

[rbnguevara]

Except that this would be putting death before life, weakness before strength, destination before journey--and all for an incredibly uncertain future, with absolutely no guarantee that things will be better. Imagine that you're trying to talk to armed robbers inside a bank who have taken hostages, and they say they'll start murdering these hostages unless you kill your best friend. It is ridiculous, in the extreme, to think that this will actually result in a good, positive solution.

The Recreance is one of those areas where I'm a little bit nervous, because storytelling-wise, I have no idea how Sanderson can get it right without me having to suspend incredibly way too much disbelief. ie, I can't think of anything that fits with the very core of the Radiants and makes plausible sense. None of the posted theories so far do that, either, in my mind.

I disagree with your reasoning. The point is the fact that the KR in order to save must kill there Spren. See if they were told that there existence causes allows desolation a to begin resulting in the death of 9 out of every 10 people wouldn't they feel obligated to end that cycle at all costs. The only way to do this would be to abandon your Spren like in Dalinars vision at fever stone keep. He heard screaming in that vision and the look of the KR as described would lead me to believe there decision was painful, gut wrenching and not one made easy. Also notice how they all walked off on there own wandering in different directions like they couldn't stand to even be around each other anymore. If I was a KR and my whole order self included just commuted mass murder I wouldn't want to be around anyone either. I think the only way they could bring themselves to make this happen is knowing that it wasn't truly murder. Maybe there Spren were ok with it even though it was gonna hurt. Spren can't die. Syl states that they only loose there consciousness and essentially become dumb. They are as dead as the oaths but still exist and come back a little each time a shard blade is summoned. I have more on this that I will post in the new stones in-hallowed forum when it kicks off. But for now this is all. Typing on my phone sucks and I can't access this site at work. Tear tear sniff. Oh well

[hoser he/him]

One minor nitpick.

I ... Also notice how they all walked off on there own wandering in different directions like they couldn't stand to even be around each other anymore. ...

IIRC, they walked off together and joined another group, presumably their squires. 

[kaellok he/him]

1.  I disagree with your reasoning. The point is the fact that the KR in order to save must kill there Spren. See if they were told that there existence causes allows desolation a to begin resulting in the death of 9 out of every 10 people wouldn't they feel obligated to end that cycle at all costs. The only way to do this would be to abandon your Spren like in Dalinars vision at fever stone keep. He heard screaming in that vision and the look of the KR as described would lead me to believe there decision was painful, gut wrenching and not one made easy.

 

2.  Also notice how they all walked off on there own wandering in different directions like they couldn't stand to even be around each other anymore. If I was a KR and my whole order self included just commuted mass murder I wouldn't want to be around anyone either.

 

3.  I think the only way they could bring themselves to make this happen is knowing that it wasn't truly murder. Maybe there Spren were ok with it even though it was gonna hurt. Spren can't die. Syl states that they only loose there consciousness and essentially become dumb. They are as dead as the oaths but still exist and come back a little each time a shard blade is summoned. I have more on this that I will post in the new stones in-hallowed forum when it kicks off. But for now this is all. Typing on my phone sucks and I can't access this site at work. Tear tear sniff. Oh well

I broke up your post a bit, and added numbering, because it helps me.  I'm sorry you have to access the site via your phone while at work, that really sucks (some coworkers spend their time on Facebook, I spend mine on 17th Shard! Bwahaha!)

 

1. The concept of the First Ideal is that you don't take the easy way out.  The spren aren't the cause of the Desolations; Odium is.  The spren know this, so presumably the Radiants do as well.  This means that killing the spren isn't going to prevent a Desolation.  This means that their act of murder isn't to save 90% of the population of the world--which, by the way, would be violating the First Ideal anyway. I think there are two epigraphs that are of particular import to this reasoning.

 

 

 

“I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw.”

“So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life . . .”

Mr T, and his Diagram, are not of Honor.  They sacrifice others with the goal to save humanity.  If you sacrifice yourself, then that would be Honorable; sacrificing someone else, is not.

 

2.  They did commit mass murder, and beyond that, likely of their best friends.

 

3.  Modern spren consider what happened during the Recreance to have been the equivalent of murder/death/killing spren, by the humans.  The Stormfather's reaction to Kaladin "YOU KILLED HER!", Pattern's insistence that Shallan will kill him, and this WoB:

 

 

 

Q:  To the spren, is becoming mindless the same as death?

A:  They consider it as such.

A further WoB explaining how or why:

 

 

 

Q:  Is it possible then to reawaken a Shardblade if that blade is wielded by someone who speaks the oaths of a Knights Radiant?

A:  (Thinking)...Yes, but it would be extremely difficult.  The spren in a Shardblade are not trapped in a state of mid-transformation like the Elantrians.  They are stuck in an agony cycle after having a significant portion of their consciousnesses ripped out of them.  The Nahel bond is what allows Spren to think on [the] material plane and that has been torn away.  It would be like having a data jack installed and then having someone come up to your head and rip it out of your head.

 

 

Q:  Can spren be resurrected?  Because ideas can never really die.

A:  This is theoretically possible but very difficult without the people who originally betrayed their oaths.

 

All of this to say that the Recreance was a betrayal of the First Ideal, en masse, because the First Ideal is that life is the most important thing--even if your life puts another at risk because of some third entity.  The problem to be solved is the third, not you, and not some other innocent.  The explanations so far are generally blaming the victims (in this case, Radiants and spren), rather than Odium (who causes the Desolations).  It's possible that 90% of the Radiants all decided to just forget their Oaths at the same time, and forget logic as well in the hopes that this would cause some nebulous Greater Good (simple logic test: Did Desolations occur before Radiants?  If yes, then the Recreance should not have happened to prevent the Desolations); I just have a really, really hard time accepting that as the answer.

[Moogle]

The concept of the First Ideal is that you don't take the easy way out.  The spren aren't the cause of the Desolations; Odium is.  The spren know this, so presumably the Radiants do as well. 

 

I don't believe that Odium is responsible for the Desolations. Like, yes, he sends the Voidbringers, but this is completely against his prior actions and motives. Odium has one goal: kill all the other Shardholders and Splinter their Shards. He doesn't care about killing regular ol' humans, who are like ants to him. (Or, well, it's not a priority.)

 

If Odium is staying on Roshar and repeatedly killing humans rather than Cultivation, it's probably not his fault.

 

Added to this, we know the Oathpact was originally between Honor and the Heralds. Not Odium. We also know the Heralds believed ending the Oathpact would stop the cycle of Desolations.

 

The obvious conclusion to this is that Honor was responsible for binding Odium, which is supported by this epigraph:

Rayse is captive. He cannot leave the system he now inhabits. His destructive potential is, therefore, inhibited. Whether this was Tanavast’s design or not, millennia have passed without Rayse taking the life of another of the sixteen.

 

If the Radiants were to end the Oathpact (assuming they can) and let Odium free, he would most likely leave Roshar alone without harming another soul. He would likely go on to kill other Shardholders. Essentially, it seems Honor forced Odium to keep attacking Roshar to save his Shardbuddies/Cultivation. Quite honorable of him to take the pain and sacrifice his own life to contain Rayse, but it would make sense if maybe the Knights Radiant didn't feel the same way about being forced into a situation like that that they didn't agree to. Still against the First Ideal to throw others to the wolves to save themselves... but then, they're not just trying to save themselves, they're saving innocents, too.

 

Either way, the Radiants seem to have all turned their backs on their oaths.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Moogle

[rbnguevara]

Ok so let me get this straight.  We all know for a FACT that the KR killed there spren.  It wasn't voluntary on the sprens behalf because the living spren see them as murdered(also Dalinar felt a great sense of betrayal at feverstone) .  We also know that the KR didn't kill their spren and then give up the shardblades and plate.  Dalinar watched 2 of the orders drop there plate and stab the blades into the ground while they were still glowing.  Only after they walked away slowly and to the faint sound of screaming did the glow fade.  The KR walk away as individuals resolute in what had been  done.  So the question is NOT whether or not they would break there oaths.  Fact they did, the question is still why?  It is possible for a lie from a Herald to convince them to break there oaths in my opinion.  For anyone to suggest that the KR wouldn't break the oaths because of there moral codes is just stupid.  Hello the recreance did happen. 

 

I keep reading great arguments or theories and then I see a response that says "oh they wouldn't do that because it makes no sense because of some special KR superior intelligence they wouldn't fall for that.  It's driving me nuts because regardless the KR betrayed the spren and for me Darkness is the facilitator of that betrayal. 

 

V/R

 

Good night.

[kaellok he/him]

Ok so let me get this straight.  We all know for a FACT that the KR killed there spren. 

 

Based on what we have seen, it is highly probable that the Radiants were the driving/motivating force, and not that of the spren.  Many of the primary theories are predicated on Radiants deliberately killing the spren, and not a willing self-sacrifice on the part of the spren.  But, it's still a theory or assumption, not a fact.

 

 

We also know that the KR didn't kill their spren and then give up the shardblades and plate.  Dalinar watched 2 of the orders drop there plate and stab the blades into the ground while they were still glowing.  Only after they walked away slowly and to the faint sound of screaming did the glow fade.

Contradictory statements here: you say that we see two Orders giving up their Blades and Plate, but that the Radiants didn't give up their Blades and Plate.  The first is textually correct, the second is not.  We can draw conjecture that if two Orders abandoned their Oaths in this way, that others did as well, but it is still assumption/theory.

 

 

So the question is NOT whether or not they would break there oaths.  Fact they did, the question is still why?

Precisely.  Why would people dedicated to the preservation of life turn to murder?

 

 

It is possible for a lie from a Herald to convince them to break there oaths in my opinion.

The example of the lie being used to convince them to break their Oaths is a really poor one.  Maybe a lie could, but not that one. 

 

 

For anyone to suggest that the KR wouldn't break the oaths because of there moral codes is just stupid.  Hello the recreance did happen. 

You're right; the Recreance did happen, and the Radiants did break their Oaths.  As you mentioned above, the question is why.  An easily disproven lie just doesn't work as a reason for me.  Moogle's interpretation that the Desolations are of Honor, and not Odium, at least address this issue (I still disagree, and see the Desolations as Odium's attempt to break free of the prison Honor has made, meaning that they are still of Odium.  Maybe I'm misreading the theory some because I disagree with it, but the point is that it addresses the major concerns I have with most of the "Cause of the Recreance Theories."

 

 

I keep reading great arguments or theories and then I see a response that says "oh they wouldn't do that because it makes no sense because of some special KR superior intelligence they wouldn't fall for that. 

It has nothing to do with KR superior intelligence, it's just simple logic.  It might be wrong, in the sense that they would still be drawing conclusions based off of incomplete knowledge.  Think of it this way: hurricanes exist, and periodically destroy towns.  They've been doing this for a couple hundred years, and then people invent guns.  Would it make sense if, a thousand years later, someone said that guns were the cause of hurricanes, and so to prevent hurricanes we need to get rid of guns?  Absolutely not, and yet this is the same argument that is frequently presented.

 

 

It's driving me nuts because regardless the KR betrayed the spren and for me Darkness is the facilitator of that betrayal. 

Continue to espouse your theory if you find it satisfying.  That's what we're all here for.  Don't get discouraged or upset if someone disagrees with you; just because something doesn't work for me doesn't mean it's wrong.  I have problems with Kaladin's character arc in WoR for the exact same reasons that other people find it powerful and moving--and we're both right.

 

What I'm looking for in an argument for why the Recreance happened is an explanation of why Superman decided that killing innocents was the right thing.  I refuse to believe in a "For the greater good" argument, because that is directly counter to who they were at the core.  That answer is the one I'm looking for because if it's not of that nature, it likely won't work for me.  At all.  And so, when I continue to have problems with people's Recreance theories, it's because they also don't work for me--not because I'm attributing supernatural intelligence to the Radiants (which they likely had through the Truthwatchers), and not because I'm denying the Recreance happened, but because they all feel lacking to what makes logical sense to me.

 

Edit: Managed to mess up all over while using my touchscreen at work, sorry.  Also, how do I get rid of a blank post?  Looks like I can choose to hide it using the full editor, so, something of  victory!

Edited September 12, 2014 by kaellok

[rbnguevara]

Kaelllok

 

loving the way you debate.

 

ok on one of my points I would like to be more clear.  I stated that the KR didn't kill their spren and then abandon there plate.  Meant was they didn't abandon there oaths elsewhere(this only refers to feverstone keep and the 2 orders present there) and then the plate.  I say this because I believe that if they broke there oaths the spren should have died then.  I do believe it is obvious they made up their minds elsewhere to do break the oaths at once and as one they did that by stabbing the Shardblades into the ground and leaving the plate at the designated place(why feverstone keep).  In WoK where it talks about this and says the KR walked away resolute after leaving the shards I found that to be a very important link to WoR where it says that one order did not follow the rest and acted with great subterfuge. Then at the end Darkness wants Seth to become a Skybreaker so that order likely is one that survived.  My theory is weak for now but I will make a stronger case after a bit more research.  Darkness is still the number one culprit.  He had a secret and now Mr.T has it and it could destroy the KR again.  What is that Secret.  I'm off to work. 

 

Bye

Edited September 12, 2014 by rbnguevara

[Omence]

Was it because Honor died? I have read both TWoK and WoR but I am a little fuzzy on these back story details.

[Emerald101 he/him]

[Wyndrunner he/him]

 

 

the question is still why?

Alright, we know that it is something that applied to all the Radiants, something that bound them all together. Likely, the first Ideal "Life before Death, Strength before Weakness, Journey before Destination".

 

I figure that the Knights must have realized something, whatever this secret that Mr. T mentions, that foreshadowed their destination. Perhaps, the Radiants realized that the Desolations themselves could lead to only one possible conclusion: extinction. It's possible that the Knights believed that they would have a better chance of saving the human race if their oaths were broken and thereby put an end to the Desolations. 

 

I mean honestly, think of any video game that operates on a level-based system, think Galaga or something like that. If you play long enough you will eventually lose. The Knights, after possibly realizing that the Heralds have abandoned them, could have decided that facing endless waves of Voidbringers would be fruitless and that they would all die sooner or later. So the only way to stop it was to quit the game.

 

This is why it is so important for Dalinar to choose a champion, they cycle can still be broken (according to Tanavast) while still following the oath, Journey before Destination. (Though also, I'm not completely certain why they need the Knights again. Yes they are extremely powerful but why do they have to, or is it just a good suggestion by Tanavast? A bad suggestion? Couldn't they have just done it Taravangian's way or is there some special thing about people with Investiture that allows one to break the cycle?)

[Omence]

(Though also, I'm not completely certain why they need the Knights again. Yes they are extremely powerful but why do they have to, or is it just a good suggestion by Tanavast? A bad suggestion? Couldn't they have just done it Taravangian's way or is there some special thing about people with Investiture that allows one to break the cycle?)

 

 

Wouldn't it be because the humans wouldn't stand much of a chance against the stormform of Parshendi or other more powerful enemies that might come along later?

[natc]

I would have to assume that, even if the Knights really do have something to do with desolations, that Tanavast believes it to be the better of two terrible options to bring them back compared to just letting the world end immediately.