Vyre vs. Kaladin

[Vissy]

You flat out can't defeat Odium with Nightblood. I'm not sure if it would even work on an avatar. 

I don't currently see Moash becoming powerful enough to challenge the main cast 1v1. He'd have to go through major character development to get to that point, and I just don't see where there is space for that in SA4 or 5. He's not even an interesting character. Siding with Odium is basically the same as turning yourself into a one-note villain. Moash / Vyre is pretty much just headed for an unceremonious death (probably at Kaladin's hands).

Edited October 24, 2018 by Vissy

[Toaster Retribution]

40 minutes ago, Vissy said:

Moash / Vyre is pretty much just headed for an unceremonious death (probably at Kaladin's hands).

I doubt it. Moash is a conflict that has been building since WoR, and now he is advancing in Odiums army, has killed Elhokar and Jezrien and owns a Honorblade. I strongly doubt he is headed toward an unceremonious death. If anyone was built up for major things, its Moash. 

I fully agree that he won’t be the Champion though, mostly because it seems like the obvious pick. I also have a gut feeling that the Champion will be a very major character, and so I doubt that it will be Moash. 

[Mental Drifter]

3 hours ago, Vissy said:

You flat out can't defeat Odium with Nightblood. I'm not sure if it would even work on an avatar. 

I don't currently see Moash becoming powerful enough to challenge the main cast 1v1. He'd have to go through major character development to get to that point, and I just don't see where there is space for that in SA4 or 5. He's not even an interesting character. Siding with Odium is basically the same as turning yourself into a one-note villain. Moash / Vyre is pretty much just headed for an unceremonious death (probably at Kaladin's hands).

Does it describe somewhere what Nightblood can and can't kill? The nightwatcher mentioned "a blade that can kill anything" which I thought was nightblood, but thinking on it more might be the knife used on Jezriel...

[Vissy]

Moash was not "built up" for anything. He literally gave up his free will in service of Odium in Oathbringer. It was pretty clearly portrayed. It read more like an ending to his character than a beginning. 

Nightblood and Shards:

Quote

 

Argent

Can Nightblood damage or kill a Shard? Is he that powerful?

Brandon Sanderson

Nightblood is not powerful enough for-- *makes weird/hesitant ehhh sound*

Argent

Can it damage?

Brandon Sanderson

Damage? Yes. How damaging? Is a subject to discussion. Nightblood contains a lot of Investiture.

source

 

 

Edited October 24, 2018 by Vissy

[Mental Drifter]

Ahhhhh, so they amount of damage depends on the amount of spirit the wielder is willing to invest?

[Calderis]

25 minutes ago, Mental Drifter said:

Ahhhhh, so they amount of damage depends on the amount of spirit the wielder is willing to invest?

The more Nightblood consumes, the faster he draws and the stronger effects he can pull off, most of which we haven't seen... 

But that WoB is referring to the fact That Nightblood is the mostly highly invested thing we've seen that is not itself a Shard. 

[goody153]

Damaging seems very losely used like Sanderson could've meant that it can damage but probably like just a crack in a giant field of ice kind of damage. 

I really highly doubt Nightblood while the most invested thing compares to a Shard can actually be a key to killing a shard. Maybe weaken a bit.

Regarding this thread. I think Vyre vs Kaladin confrontation in inevitable but i think Szeth will be the one who will kill Vyre (they basically mirror as Vyre has both a permadeath weapon and a shardblade which Szeth do as well have but much more powerful versions of it)

[Mental Drifter]

On 10/24/2018 at 7:43 AM, Calderis said:

The more Nightblood consumes, the faster he draws and the stronger effects he can pull off, most of which we haven't seen... 

But that WoB is referring to the fact That Nightblood is the mostly highly invested thing we've seen that is not itself a Shard. 

So what exactly is investiture in the cosmere? What does "highly invested" mean?

[Calderis]

28 minutes ago, Mental Drifter said:

So what exactly is investiture in the cosmere? What does "highly invested" mean?

Stormlight, Breath, pretty much anything that is magic fuel is investiture. The more heavily invested something is, the greater the concentration of that power. 

[+robardin]

On 10/22/2018 at 3:16 PM, IllNsickly said:

@Calderis

I am not unwilling to defer to your wisdom.

However, Odium did state very plainly that he would adhere to both the ‘Spirit and Word’ of any agreement made.

And he Chose Dalinar explicitly in word.

Perhaps coming from Odium that isn’t worth even the length of time it took him to say it, but I think that will be important.

His "word" was that he accepted the offer of a contest of champions. That's what Odium can't go back on, and Taravangian pointed that out, and he did not disagree.

Quote

"You wish a contest of champions?" Odium repeated. "This is your true desire, not forced upon you? You were not beguiled or tricked in any way?"

"A contest of champions. For the fate of Roshar."

"Very well," Odium said, then sighed softly. "I agree."

He then (attempted to) name Dalinar as his champion, which role he's clearly refused. So as Calderis put it, "the slot is open", but the agreement is an open and standing one, too.

Odium is acting like someone who's throwing out THIRD AND FINAL NOTICE!! letters while disconnecting their phone and refusing to answer the doorbell to dodge a debt collection agency. Based on Mr. T's observation, and Odium's tacit agreement, apparently Dalinar, but only Dalinar, can force him to finish arranging the challenge, as the person holding the remnants of Honor.

[insert_anagram_here]

The best choice for Odium to place against Dalinar is Adolin. It's a checkmate.

We've only got a glimpse of their father/son relationship getting weakened, with Adolin refusing to take the throne (even temporarily) and accepting he isn't what he father wants him to be (Sadea's murder) and of course there is, the giant elephant in the room, Evi's death revelation.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, insert_anagram_here said:

The best choice for Odium to place against Dalinar is Adolin. It's a checkmate.

It would be devastating to Dalinar... But Dalinar isn't the only factor. 

And getting Adolin to accept that mantle is a bit if a long shot in my mind. 

[Vissy]

Here's a bit of a nuclear take. Dalinar could accept the role as Odium's Champion by his own free will - instead of being strongarmed into the position by the Thrill - and then lose on purpose, or if that would break the spirit of the arrangement, place himself against a champion he knows he cannot beat such as Szeth or Kaladin. His sacrifice would save Roshar.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Vissy

[Mental Drifter]

On 10/26/2018 at 1:58 PM, insert_anagram_here said:

The best choice for Odium to place against Dalinar is Adolin. It's a checkmate.

We've only got a glimpse of their father/son relationship getting weakened, with Adolin refusing to take the throne (even temporarily) and accepting he isn't what he father wants him to be (Sadea's murder) and of course there is, the giant elephant in the room, Evi's death revelation.

Adolin hasn't grown addicted to the Thrill like Dalinar had, and Adolin isn't pure as snow, but he isn't weak or evil either. He's already thrown off The Thrill in battle, growing sick at the sight of death like Dalinar did.

On 10/27/2018 at 1:51 AM, Vissy said:

Here's a bit of a nuclear take. Dalinar could accept the role as Odium's Champion by his own free will - instead of being strongarmed into the position by the Thrill - and then lose on purpose, or if that would break the spirit of the arrangement, place himself against a champion he knows he cannot beat such as Szeth or Kaladin. His sacrifice would save Roshar.

I think chosing to lose wouldn't be an option once Odium had his hooks into you.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Chaos
Don't double post; use multiquote

[Cojiro]

On 10/24/2018 at 1:47 AM, Vissy said:

I don't currently see Moash becoming powerful enough to challenge the main cast 1v1. He'd have to go through major character development to get to that point, and I just don't see where there is space for that in SA4 or 5. He's not even an interesting character. Siding with Odium is basically the same as turning yourself into a one-note villain. Moash / Vyre is pretty much just headed for an unceremonious death (probably at Kaladin's hands).

I'd agree with that assessment, except for the idea of Moash dying an unceremonious death. He's definitely been built up too much for that. But he definitely isn't strong enough at present to be Odium's champion. As it is, he's not even as strong now as Szeth was, back when Szeth held the Honorblade. Even if Moash gets as good at Lashing as Szeth did, he'll still just essentially be the Assassin in White Mk. II, now with one extra sword.

Now, if him going around killing Heralds gives his blade, and therefore him, the strength to withstand the full power of Yelig-nar, that would be a different story.

[+Invocation]

22 hours ago, Vissy said:

Here's a bit of a nuclear take. Dalinar could accept the role as Odium's Champion by his own free will - instead of being strongarmed into the position by the Thrill - and then lose on purpose, or if that would break the spirit of the arrangement, place himself against a champion he knows he cannot beat such as Szeth or Kaladin. His sacrifice would save Roshar.

I agree with @Mental Drifter. Once Odium has you fully, you're gone. No choosing to lose available, once you're committed at that level.

[Toaster Retribution]

7 hours ago, Cojiro said:

Now, if him going around killing Heralds gives his blade, and therefore him, the strength to withstand the full power of Yelig-nar, that would be a different story.

I like this idea. Partially because Moash harnessing Yelig-nar would be terrifying. Partly because then Nale won’t get the Unmade. 

Oh, and @Vissy forgot to answer you. Moash/Vyre is totally being built up for something. He has been given POVs to show us his reasoning, a backstory, a conflict with a main character, a Honorblade and killed a Herald. That is totally being built-up.

Edited October 28, 2018 by Toaster Retribution

[WhiteEmporer]

I'm pretty sold on moash vs Kaladin for the fate of Roshar. It might seem too obvious, but not everything needs to be a surprise. Certain story elements are more powerful because they have been built up to.

Kaladin makes sense as Dalinar's champion. He has the strongest aspect of leadership next to Dalinar, just as their counterpart Heralds each led in different ways in the ancient past.  Also he's awesome.

Moash makes sense as Odium's champion. While he is becoming more and more Odium's, he hasn't turned into a cheap one sided villain. Brandon seems to have put some effort into making Moash seem relatable and at times even moral. He at times seems like more of an antihero. And of course the two having been former friends would make it even cooler.

Or of course it could be possible that the voidbringers are taking such an enormous interest in him for no reason. I mean, it's not like they have had him do anything important like, say, KILLING A HERALD.

[sin165]

I'm sure Vyre vs. Kaladin will happen. I doubt that Kaladin will kill him though. I think the 5th ideal might be something like "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves even if it means killing someone I care about" and probably Kal won't be able to swear it. If Odium can predict that he'll choose Moash regardless of his strength.

[Kramerfarve]

On 10/22/2018 at 1:29 PM, Nymeros said:

Why would Odium choose Vyre to be his champion? Why not one of his ancient voidbringers, or Nale, or anyone more experienced than Moash?

Also, most of his voidbringers have gone mental, so it’s best not to give them any more power than they have already.

[Toaster Retribution]

Yeah, the only real reason to pick Moash over the others is that he is basically the only guy on Team Odium who isn’t batshit crazy. 

[kaellok]

On 11/4/2018 at 7:30 AM, WhiteEmporer said:

I'm pretty sold on moash vs Kaladin for the fate of Roshar. It might seem too obvious, but not everything needs to be a surprise. Certain story elements are more powerful because they have been built up to.

Kaladin makes sense as Dalinar's champion. He has the strongest aspect of leadership next to Dalinar, just as their counterpart Heralds each led in different ways in the ancient past.  Also he's awesome.

Moash makes sense as Odium's champion. While he is becoming more and more Odium's, he hasn't turned into a cheap one sided villain. Brandon seems to have put some effort into making Moash seem relatable and at times even moral. He at times seems like more of an antihero. And of course the two having been former friends would make it even cooler.

Or of course it could be possible that the voidbringers are taking such an enormous interest in him for no reason. I mean, it's not like they have had him do anything important like, say, KILLING A HERALD.

I very much disagree with you about the bolded part.  Moash has deliberately shut down or locked away all sides of himself except for one.  I even somewhat disagree that there was anything more to him as a character to begin with (you can dig through some of my ancient WoR comments if you want); the friendship of Kaladin and Moash was a told-not-shown, and done in service of showing readers some truly amazing and epic scenes for Kaladin.  That doesn't change that Moash has always been one-note, though.  "Wanna kill some light-eyes, especially Elhokar?"  "Hey Kaladin, I'm here to kill Elhokar."  "Whatup Kaladin--just killed Elhokar.  Buh-bye."  "I'm a bit bored now that I did the only thing in this world that I care about, which was killing Elhokar.  Oh, you want me to kill a Herald?  They're kinda like a light-eyes.  Cool."

I agree that building up story elements can make for a more powerful story-telling moment.  But Moash being a champion for Odium wouldn't be obvious, it would be a disappointment.  Szeth would make so much more sense, and be so much more interesting, because Szeth actually has a personality and is an inherently interesting character.  Moash exists to serve plot.  Venli, too, would be a superior choice for Odium's Champion, based on what we have seen so far, while also being a rather predictable candidate.

I understand that you like Moash as a candidate or story element because there is something about the character that you like or enjoy.  To me, he's always been a rare complete miss from Sanderson--a character that feels like a static cardboard cutout or mannequin.  I tend to mirror @goody153's thought that Kaladin and Moash will clash, but Szeth will likely be the one to kill him.

[Ashaman_Wade]

Moash has been given enough story elements to at least be present and supporting Odiums champion forces. I really enjoyed his fall and hated seeing him turn down responsibility over and over again. Because of that one fact I don't see him taking up any mantles. 

Can he have squires with the honorblade?

[Calderis]

38 minutes ago, Ashaman_Wade said:

Can he have squires with the honorblade?

No. 

Quote

Ray745

You have stated that each Knights Radiant order gets their own unique ability, for lack of a better word, due to the combination of their surges. For instance, you have stated this ability for the Windrunners is strength of squires. My question - is this due to the Nahel bond, or just inherent in the surges combining. Would a non-Radiant get these abilities from the Honorblades, or would they be out of luck due to no Nahel bond?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question! The unique abilities have more to do with the powers interacting, same as how twinborn will often manifest some odd side effects of the powers interacting. But there are limitations. For example, Jezrien didn't actually have any squires, as none of the Heralds did.

source

 

[WhiteEmporer]

@kaellok I think we're going to have to strongly agree to strongly disagree on this particular issue.

Either that, or you could challenge me to a test of champions...

My champion is...You!

Oh wait, did someone try the "recruit opponent in his own champion contest" trick already? Nuts...