Vyre vs. Kaladin

[Mental Drifter]

It seems, to me, like there is a set-up for Odium to choose Vyre as his champion, and Dalinar to choose Kaladin as his. Both thinking that their champion will overcome their friendship.

I do think that Kaldin's fourth Ideal will either manifest here, or already have done so, allowing him to defeat an old friend.

[IllNsickly he/him]

Odium already chose Dalinar as his Champion. No do overs. I think that now Odium has to try to figure out how to make his chosen Champion fight FOR him. I may be incorrect, but I am holding on to that. 

Edited October 22, 2018 by IllNsickly
Out of order thoughts.

[Mental Drifter]

See, I thought the champion had to be willing also.

[Calderis he/him]

10 minutes ago, Mental Drifter said:

See, I thought the champion had to be willing also.

For all we know this is true. We have no real clue how the contest if champions works beyond the fact that, per Odium and Taravangian's conversion, Odium is bound to the agreement to have one and because of that if he becomes involved directly Dalinar can force him to comply. 

As far as who is/will be champion, that's yet to be seen.

[Mental Drifter]

Ok cool, so at least I understood that part correctly.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Odium wanted Dalinar to be his champion. Dalinar told him no thanks. If Dalinar had said yes, then I doubt Odium could have another pick, but since Dalinar refused, Odium never had him as a champion. Thus, Odium has not yet chosen a champion, and is free to approach anyone. 

I don’t think it will be Moash though. It feels too obvious. 

[Subvisual Haze]

13 hours ago, IllNsickly said:

Odium already chose Dalinar as his Champion. No do overs. I think that now Odium has to try to figure out how to make his chosen Champion fight FOR him. I may be incorrect, but I am holding on to that. 

I agree completely.  Why else have the whole scene at the end where Taravangian explains that Odium can't directly interfere in Roshar now that Odium has named Dalinar his champion if Odium can just name a different champion?

 

5 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Odium wanted Dalinar to be his champion. Dalinar told him no thanks. If Dalinar had said yes, then I doubt Odium could have another pick, but since Dalinar refused, Odium never had him as a champion. Thus, Odium has not yet chosen a champion, and is free to approach anyone. 

I don’t think it will be Moash though. It feels too obvious. 

When did Dalinar formally deny the offer to be Odium's champion?

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

17 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

When did Dalinar formally deny the offer to be Odium's champion?

When he screamed I am Unity and locked Nergaul into a gemstone. I’m pretty sure he said no as well.

[+Invocation]

6 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

When he screamed I am Unity and locked Nergaul into a gemstone. I’m pretty sure he said no as well.

He kept saying that Odium would never have his pain, which I think qualifies as a flat denial.

[Nymeros]

Why would Odium choose Vyre to be his champion? Why not one of his ancient voidbringers, or Nale, or anyone more experienced than Moash?

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

6 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

Why would Odium choose Vyre to be his champion? Why not one of his ancient voidbringers, or Nale, or anyone more experienced than Moash?

Nale might turn him down. He fights for the Singers, not necessarily for Odium. 

[Ripheus23]

IDK why I got this impression but I thought Odium ended up picking Taravangian as his champion?

[Subvisual Haze]

46 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

When he screamed I am Unity and locked Nergaul into a gemstone. I’m pretty sure he said no as well.

But Odium himself makes clear that agreements with him must be done with intention and follow certain formalities.  See when Dalinar earlier offhandedly asked Odium to leave:

Quote

"Ah, all right then," Odium said. He smiled, a twinkle in his eyes. "Oh, don't fret so.  These things must be done properly.  I will go if you release me, but only if you do it by Intent."

and he echoes the same idea in his deal with Taravangian

Quote

"I am not some spren of Honor, who seeks to obey only the strictest letter of a promise. If you have an agreement from me, I will keep it in spirit, not merely in word."

He quite explicitly names Dalinar his champion.  He doesn't dispute it when Taravangian later uses this restriction on him when bartering their deal.

Quote

"You have agreed to a battle of champions.  You must withdraw to prevent this contest from occurring, and so must not meet with Dalinar Kholin again.  Otherwise, he can force you to fight.

There's no temporal qualifiers or take-backsies here.  This whole exchange would be pointless if Odium could just wave his hand and declare some new mortal his champion at any point.  If there are no actual longterm stakes in such a contest, what point would Odium's opponents have in proposing such a contest?

If you accept that the champion in a contest of champions can be retroactively changed you're essentially calling both Honor and Cultivation utter fools.  Honor for proposing such a pointless plan in his visions to Dalinar in the first place (make Odium commit to contest...so he can just change his champion whenever he wishes because he isn't winning, this will totally slow him down for like a day until he chooses a new champion!), and Cultivation for giving Taravangian the mental capacity to base the Diagram's plan on such a useless contingency.

[IllNsickly he/him]

@Subvisual Haze

That you for expanding on my points! 

If Odium gets to chose again because his Champion ‘Just isn’t Performing’ it makes the whole thing feel cheap.

After the Taravangian scene where we see the Golden light of Odium, I am suspect of EVERY scene where Dalinar sees and feels a Golden Light. Based on in world evidence, that is Odium’s hallmark.

Odium has chosen and he chose poorly for his intentions. He now needs to exert his influence over Dalinar in an attempt to bring him back to The Blackthorn and someone who will fight on his side.

Edited October 22, 2018 by IllNsickly
Seppling

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

@Subvisual Haze Good points. However, I still disagree. For one, if Dalinar was Odiums Champion, why would Odium be scared of meeting him again? 

Dalinar turned the opportunity down quite explicitly. I doubt Odium can slap the Champion title upon anyone and then have them as his Champion no matter what they said. That would be unfair towards Odium. If he can’t change, Dalinar just needs to lose the Contest walk-over to Honors Champion, and then Odium will be toast. 

[garlick]

I see it as odium agreed to the contest of champions and chose Dalinar but he declined. Dalinar isnt his champion bit he still agreed to the contest. If Dalinar see him again he can call for the contest and odium would have to choose a champion to fight Dalinar....and he knows just how good Dalinar is thats why he chose him to start with. Now he has to pick someone who could defeat his first pick.

[Calderis he/him]

Eh. Odium agreed to a trial yes, and he attempted to choose a champion. 

Dalinar refused the position so the slot is still open. Once a choice is made and accepted its permanent. 

The alternative, of Dalinar remaining Odium's champion, simply means Dalinar "forfeits" and Odium loses. Game over. 

Whereas having agreed to the contest, if he becomes involved directly, Dalinar can force him to choose and fight and the game is concluded either way.

The assumption that Dalinar refusing means that Odium could arbitrarily choose a new champion on a whim is unfounded. 

[IllNsickly he/him]

@Calderis

I am not unwilling to defer to your wisdom.

 

However, Odium did state very plainly that he would adhere to both the ‘Spirit and Word’ of any agreement made.

And he Chose Dalinar explicitly in word.

Perhaps coming from Odium that isn’t worth even the length of time it took him to say it, but I think that will be important.

[Calderis he/him]

12 minutes ago, IllNsickly said:

However, Odium did state very plainly that he would adhere to both the ‘Spirit and Word’ of any agreement made.

And I don't believe that for a moment. Agreements made by the Shards are binding only in what they believe they've agreed to. Taravangian is a fool to have not written out an exacting contract. 

Mistborn spoilers 

Spoiler

Leras betrayal of Ati would be absolutely impossible otherwise. 

Quote

“We are going to stop it,” Kelsier said, pulling back.

  “It can’t be stopped. The deal . . .”

  “Deals can be broken.”

  “Not these kinds of deals, Kelsier. I was able to trick Ruin before, lock him away, by fooling him with our agreement. But that wasn’t a breach of contract, more leaving a hole in the agreement to be exploited. This time there are no holes.”

 

There are plenty of loopholes possible here. 

Edited October 22, 2018 by Calderis

[IllNsickly he/him]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

 

Mistborn spoilers 

  Hide contents

Leras betrayal of atium would be absolutely impossible otherwise. 

 

There are plenty of loopholes possible here. 

/cast Bandage Wounded Theory.

[Vissy]

Currently, Kaladin is easily one of the strongest individual fighters in the series that we know about. Szeth is probably better because Nightblood and Dalinar has lifehack via the Stormfather, so he's probably better too. But Vyre / Moash has no chance against any major character atm, he needs to get way stronger if he's going to be a champion. 

[Ailvara]

2 hours ago, Vissy said:

Currently, Kaladin is easily one of the strongest individual fighters in the series that we know about. Szeth is probably better because Nightblood and Dalinar has lifehack via the Stormfather, so he's probably better too. But Vyre / Moash has no chance against any major character atm, he needs to get way stronger if he's going to be a champion. 

Yep, for example by running himself through with a certain blade holding the power of a herald and becoming Roshar's first (?) and OP Inquisitor. For the record, I very much don't want that to happen, but it looks probable. 

[Vissy]

We have no idea how that would work (or if it would work on Roshar just like that). For all we know he'd just be getting possessed by Jezrien.

[Calderis he/him]

The blade is not the same as hemalurgy... Yes it stole something and placed it into that gem.

I highly doubt getting stabbed by that blade is ever going to give anything though. 

[Mental Drifter]

My question was based on an assumption of a more thoroughly groomed and trained Vyre. I'm actually figuring Szeth will use his crazyepicmurderblade on Odium eventually.

Every contest of champions I have ever seen required acceptance by the champion. Odium thought Dalinar would fold under the pressure of The Thrill, which would have meant he'd never lose...unless Dalinar killed himself(?)

But when Dalinar fought The Thrill off, it ruined Odium's plan, so he had to retreat to come up with a new plan. Otherwise Odium would have to choose from a selection that wasn't really winning a one-on-one contest that they were currently fighting.

I'm also not expecting Dalinar to fight himself, but instead choose a champion of his own.

It's really hard to say, because some things are obvious to me (like Jasnah not being dead) and some I miss completely (like Venli binding with a Spren instead of Eshonai...I mean she even said the words*slaps forehead*)