teravangion [OB] Let’s talk about Teravangion high intellect days

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

On days when Taravangion is a dullard, he seems to have high compassion ! At first I thought this was a Ruse! But the more I think about it , I believe he is sincerely more compassionate. On days where his intelligence is high , he seems to have little or no compassion whatsoever! Storms he ordered his guards to excecute the children because there singing was annoying him. He is beyond rude to Adrotagia . He wanted the capacity to save. The world. While I enjoy him immensely when he is Hyper intelligent . What if that’s not the attribute needed to Save the world? What if the Diagram that he created while intelligent . Can only be interpreted correctly by Taravangion when his Capacity for compassion is at his highest level . Hyper intelligent and brutally pragmatic Taravangion simply can’t make adjustmahts to pick out the proper actions that you need to make in response to random Factors Like Dalinar failing to Give in to Odium Like Diagram thought he would... what are you guys thoughts gentlemen!! 

[Voidus]

This is indeed so, as confirmed both by Brandon (To a degree) and Taravangian himself. Or at least the part about being more compassionate when he's duller.
Not sure if I'd agree that the compassion was the capacity though, the intelligence was definitely at a supernatural level wheras we haven't seen the compassionate equivalent of the Diagram so I'd say high intelligence, low compassion was the fulfillment of his request.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/107-orem-signing-2014/#e1376
 

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zas678 (paraphrased)

And my other question is about Taravangian. It becomes clear that when he's smart, he's less compassionate, and when he's dumb, he's more compassionate.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yeah, he mentions that in his interlude.

zas678 (paraphrased)

Is that intentional, or is that just how you believe intelligence works?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, that's intentional. There's plenty of really smart people who are also compassionate, and dumb people who aren't.

 

[Journey Before Pancakes]

He likely recieved exactly what he asked for, just not how he expected.

What Cultivation/Nightwatcher did probably is an attempt to save the world.  It may have been necessary to affect Big T like this so that events go the right way to save Roshar.

It's also possible that it was just a classic Nightwatcher Prank; where he has the "capacity" to save the world through high intelligence and compassion; but he never has both traits at the same time.

[Calderis he/him]

Weeeee, Taravangian thread! My favorite.

First thing first, his boon and curse. There is no storming way that this was the Nightwatcher. She couldn't grasp the concept of forgiveness, or why someone would want it. Capacity? And the craziness of this boon/curse? 

Every example given to us of a Nightwatcher boon/curse are two distinct things. A boon, and numb hands. Cloth, and seeing the world upside down. The very way that people speak of a boon and a curse. But in Dalinar we saw a boon and curse intertwined. I think with both Taravangian and Lift we're seeing the same things. Far more complicated, and far more powerful gifts than the Nightwatcher is capable of. Cultivation's work, used with Cultivation's foresight. 

So the Diagram... Is not what it seems to be. Taravangian believes that his interpretations have failed, and there are contingencies and branches. That the further he gets from the day it was made the more it diverges from its accuracy. And yet it was able to foresee the circumstances of him being met with by Odium on a low intelligence day? So much so that it includes details about Odium have agreed to a trial of champions and being unable to confront Dalinar directly any longer? 

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“You need me,” Taravangian whispered.
“I need nobody.”
Taravangian looked up and there, glowing in front of him, was a set of words. A message from himself, in the past. Incredible! Had he somehow seen even this?
Thank you.
He read them out loud. “You have agreed to a battle of champions. You must withdraw to prevent this contest from occurring, and so must not meet with Dalinar Kholin again. Otherwise, he can force you to fight. This means you must let your agents do your work. You need me.”

I don't believe that for a moment. The Diagram has been absolutely accurate up to this point. It's "failures" have steered events precisely. Szeth's slaughter of world leaders created the ground on which the coalition was built. The release of information to undermine the coalition lead directly to Dalinar's desperate situation and rejection of Odium during the battle of Thaylen city which in turn led to the meeting with Odium where he read those words. 

Taravangian on the day of the Diagram laid out this plan to steer his less intelligent self (and even on genius days, he's still far less intelligent) by the nose to follow the true plan he had on that day. That plan did not exist outside of his head. Odium is aware of everything that is in the Diagram, and to have written down the plan would mean to expose it to scrutiny.

The goals of the Diagram are not, and have never been what Taravangian believes. This is not about saving a remnant. This is not capitulation. This is about positioning himself where he can do the most to undermine Odium directly. He is now a "servant" of Odium, ruling one of the most powerful nations on Roshar. Odium believes him to be loyal out of necessity, because Taravangian himself believes that. Which is the entire point. He is a trusted tool of the enemy. It's in that "capacity" that he'll be able to do what needs to be done. 

Or as @RShara likes to put it. "T is a plant" 

[Journey Before Pancakes]

I definitely subscribe to the theory @Calderis is talking about the most.

It makes a lot of sense too.  Of all the shards we know; it seems likely that Cultivation would be associated with a very strong foresight.

MB Era 1 Spoilers:

Spoiler

We saw what Preservation did with his ability to look ahead.  He planned out the destruction of Ruin with an extremely risky gamble that involved a lot of moving parts; predicted over 1000 years prior.

I would posit that Cultivation would have an even (far?) greater foresight than Preservation.  Preservation is concerned about the future, because it wants things to remain indefinitely.  Cultivation likely would have an even stronger feel for the future, because it is concerned specifically with preparing and creating and how things actually develop.

Odium probably has far better foresight than Ruin; but I imagine Cultivation is still able to outmaneuver him readily; just based on her intent at least.  I'm very interested to see how it plays out.

[RShara she/her]

I really need to retype my whole Taravangian theory thread. I got to 6/7 bullet points before it went poof

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

I’m Blown away! Teravangion is one of those intriguing characters . First you love him , gently old wise king . Then you hate him when you See how he has used Szeth. And the lengths he goes to obtain the death Rattles. You watch him with a face When he tries to beg Queen Fen to allow him to send for healers! How many of us said “yeah riight” Then you fill pity for him when he confronts Odium , or shall we say Odium says hello to a fleck that caught his attention . 

        So if this was all to Put him in position to where he could have the capacity to undermine Odium . And I’m loving this theory  like Bruenor battlehammet would say“ don’t ye. Doubt “  where does he go from here, does he give bad advice to Odium primary Agents that he encounters so they fail ? I doubt he encounters any . Does he observe. , collect info about Odium and the Fused ? Again he would need to be around them openly which he isn’t so far ? So his involvement is sonethhg more covert . Odium sees him as somebody insignificant . None of us see Tee in that way . Like Teravangion is a character that defies description. Is he protagonist , is he an antagonist , he may be the former but he certainly acts and behaves like the latter? Let’s dig into this and try and figure out exactly what he can do! I mean u seen this far Cal , pop another vial gold metals and burn it , there has to be more!?

Edited June 24, 2018 by SzethIsBadAsHell

[Leyrann]

He's neither protagonist or antagonist. Those are terms from an out-of-universe perspective; the protagonist is the one the story is about, the antagonist is the one the protagonist is fighting. The question is, is he a knight templar? I think the answer to that is yes.

Oh, and it's Taravangian, not Teravangion. It's all a's except for that one i.

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

47 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

He's neither protagonist or antagonist. Those are terms from an out-of-universe perspective; the protagonist is the one the story is about, the antagonist is the one the protagonist is fighting. The question is, is he a knight templar? I think the answer to that is yes.

Oh, and it's Taravangian, not Teravangion. It's all a's except for that one i.

Ok I understand that by a strict definition he is not a protagonist .  Epic fantasy did not exist when these terms were created. So when I say protagonist I mean is he helping the main plot of the story along or is he impeding the main plot of the story along. Sorry for the misspelling . I listened to most of Stormlight on audio books so this is my oversight. I must admit I don’t know much about the Knights Templar , so can u clarify what u are trying to say about that! 

[Leyrann]

1 minute ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

Ok I understand that by a strict definition he is not a protagonist .  Epic fantasy did not exist when these terms were created. So when I say protagonist I mean is he helping the main plot of the story along or is he impeding the main plot of the story along. Sorry for the misspelling . I listened to most of Stormlight on audio books so this is my oversight. I must admit I don’t know much about the Knights Templar , so can u clarify what u are trying to say about that! 

A Knight Templar is a term used for people who aim to do good but think they are always right and tend to see evil where it doesn't exist, so that in the end they become evil themselves. That link gives a better explanation, but I do have to warn you that that site can take up a lot of time without realizing it because you just keep reading.

[Szmit]

9 hours ago, Leyrann said:

Knight Templar 

Thanks for that wiki. Now I'm wasting time instead of learning for exam

[Leyrann]

Just now, Szmit said:

Thanks for that wiki. Now I'm wasting time instead of learning for exam

I warned you.  

[Gasper he/him]

I think King T is a plant for Cultivation. She has some of the best future sight in the Cosmere and potentially has similar power levels as Odium. Also, it would not surprise me if she in direct command of King T's high and low days.

[Calderis he/him]

19 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

So if this was all to Put him in position to where he could have the capacity to undermine Odium . And I’m loving this theory  like Bruenor battlehammet would say“ don’t ye. Doubt “  where does he go from here,

He'll do the same thing he's been doing. Follow the Diagram, and work towards what he believes is one goal, while the events that his actions cause push towards the real objective hidden from him. 

[StrikerEZ he/him]

@Calderis Just wanted to tell you that you perfectly summed up how I feel about King T in that first post of yours. 

[Nathrangking he/him]

I think that the beauty of his character is the inscrutability of his goals. I would agree with @Calderis and @RShara had I not looked into the text itself where Cultivation explicitly states that her meeting with Dalinar was the first such meeting in centuries. Thus in terms of timeline unless Cultivation is lying which is another matter altogether the boons of Taravangian and Lift cannot have been imparted in the same way that Dalinar's was.

EDIT:Well then I always knew that math was not my thing. Had he gone just a little earlier I would not have made an absurd claim. Now I'm a believer!! Carry on.

Edited June 25, 2018 by Nathrangking

[StrikerEZ he/him]

Just now, Nathrangking said:

I think that the beauty of his character is the inscrutability of his goals. I would agree with @Calderis and @RShara had I not looked into the text itself where Cultivation explicitly states that her meeting with Dalinar was the first such meeting in centuries. Thus in terms of timeline unless Cultivation is lying which is another matter altogether the boons of Taravangian and Lift cannot have been imparted in the same way that Dalinar's was.

Well, we don't the exact times that Lift and Taravangian went to the Nightwatcher. They both easily could've gone after Dalinar had gone. Lift only went about three years before the story takes place (several years after Dalinar went). It's a bit iffy whether King T went after Dalinar, but we do know that they both went after Gavilar's death. It's highly plausible that King T could've gone after Dalinar, which would make Cultivation's statement still true.

[Calderis he/him]

27 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

I think that the beauty of his character is the inscrutability of his goals. I would agree with @Calderis and @RShara had I not looked into the text itself where Cultivation explicitly states that her meeting with Dalinar was the first such meeting in centuries. Thus in terms of timeline unless Cultivation is lying which is another matter altogether the boons of Taravangian and Lift cannot have been imparted in the same way that Dalinar's was.

It is explicitly stated that Dalinar went to the Nightwatcher 5 1/2 years ago. 

Taravangian's "malady" that hid his visit was 5 years ago. 

Dalinar was the first, Taravangian the second, and Lift the third, 3 years before her first interlude.

Edit: for reference. 

"Five and a half years ago" is the date given of the Nightwatcher Flashback. 

We have this concerning Taravangian, from Dalinar's narrative at Taravangian's arrival at Urithiru. 

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“Your Majesty,” Dalinar said. “Thank you so much for responding to my call.” Dalinar had met Taravangian several times, years ago. He remembered a man of quiet, keen intelligence.
That was gone now. Taravangian had always been humble, and had kept to himself, so most didn’t know he’d been intelligent once—before his strange illness five years ago, which Navani was fairly certain covered an apoplexy that had permanently wounded his mental capacities.

The "five years ago" is much less concrete than a flashback, but considering that Brandon feels the need to show that 1/2 year on the flashback date, it seems rather telling. 

Edited June 25, 2018 by Calderis

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

He'll do the same thing he's been doing. Follow the Diagram, and work towards what he believes is one goal, while the events that his actions cause push towards the real objective hidden from him. 

My Respect for Cultivation has just grew 1000 fold , that’s devious as hell. I like it , I believe it , I feel it . damnation Cal what u over there reading , you have an advanced copy of secret histories 2 or something , naw all teasing this is probably one of the most solid , lucid , and well thought out theories I have ever read .!!! Great job mam

[KalaDANG he/him]

I saw an awesome thread somewhere about how intelligent Taravangian realized that he couldn't save the world, so he created the diagram to not have himself save it, but to have it be saved by Dalinar. Everything that Taravangian has done has only led to another success for Dalinar and the Radiants. But Einstein/Taravangian knew that if Odium knew what the diagram's REAL goal was, he would stop it because it could work. We know that Odium knows what the diagram says, so that makes sense. So smart Mr T disguised it all as an attempt for dumb Mr. T to assume control of the planet and then have Odium promise to protect those that he rules. It's ingenious really. If you look at it from the "Taravangian take over" point of view, the Diagram is a piece of trash. But if you look at it from the "Dalinar saves everyone" point of view, it's going pretty well, and they even have one of the world monarchs in a position to betray Odium and his plans. Pretty convienient. Brainy Mr. T is doing the long con on Dumb Mr. T. I don't necessarily go with this theory 100%, but it's definitely a thinker.

 

[Leyrann]

On 25-6-2018 at 10:43 PM, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

My Respect for Cultivation has just grew 1000 fold , that’s devious as hell. I like it , I believe it , I feel it . damnation Cal what u over there reading , you have an advanced copy of secret histories 2 or something , naw all teasing this is probably one of the most solid , lucid , and well thought out theories I have ever read .!!! Great job mam

This theory formed over the weeks and months after Oathbringer release (though I believe the seeds were there beforehand already?). I'm not sure if a single one member can be pointed towards as creator of the "Cultivation is behind the Diagram" theory.

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

This theory formed over the weeks and months after Oathbringer release (though I believe the seeds were there beforehand already?). I'm not sure if a single one member can be pointed towards as creator of the "Cultivation is behind the Diagram" theory.

Well I've been saying that part since well before OB, I'm still not the only one though. 

OB just solidified the extent of the foresight for me. 

[Subvisual Haze]

It's likely that the tendency towards forming lots of obscure secret societies in general (Diagram, Ghostbloods, Sons of Honor etc.) is an effect of Cultivation's nature.