Shard weapons

[Lepth]

Why would a radiant use a shard hammer?

isn’t the point of a shard blade so that the radiant can cut through any thing and if the radiant used a hammer there would be no blade to cut with. 

And what about shard bows? Not the metal bows but like if a radiant made a bow and could they make arrows as well? Would the spren be split in multiple parts and what kind of string could support the draw weight of a shard bow?

Edited March 24, 2018 by Lepth

[Weltall]

First off, let me say welcome to the Shard!

While the blades have many advantages there are situations where other weapons are simply more desireable. For example, if you don't want to kill someone then a rod like Lift summons in Edgedancer is useful. A hammer is effective when fighting someone with Shardplate for the same reason that hammers and maces were historically used against armored opponents in the real world: You don't need to penetrate the armor for the shock of the blow to hurt the person inside. With Shards, since the Plate is going to block a blade anyways the use of a hammer means that you're doing more damage, first because it's still damaging the Plate and second for the secondary effect on the shardbearer.

For bows, you get a super-strong metal bow that's superior to even a 'Shardbow' (really an ordinary bow with a fabrial attached) which is perfectly sized to you, so if you're a good archer it's a pretty sweet deal. You have to carry your own string and arrows but that's not a huge hassle and you don't have to lug around the bow when you aren't actively putting arrows in things. Technically you could have a normal bow and make your spren the arrow but there are various reasons that's not the best of ideas, which have been discussed around here at some length. We don't know how far the spren can go from the Radiant while maintaining their Physical form and because of how such an arrow would function, it wouldn't really have any advantage over a normal arrow under most circumstances. Chief among the issues is that you can't kill someone with a 'Shardarrow' unless you bisect the spine. Brandon has been asked about making a bow and an arrow or about making multiple weapons and has said that it's possible but this would require splitting the soul of the spren and this 'wouldn't be very fun'. So it's not something we're ever likely to see happen.

Lastly of course, there's simple preference. Just because you have a sword that's exceptionally lethal doesn't necessarily mean that you're very good at using it. Switching to a weapon type that you're more comfortable with means you'll fight better and have less risk of making a potentially fatal mistake, without really sacrificing all that much. Look at Kaladin and how he defaults to using Syl as a spear whenever circumstances allow it.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Weltall

[The Forgetful Archivist]

4 hours ago, Lepth said:

Why would a radiant use a shard hammer?

The whole idea of Shard hammers kind of confusing isn't the point of a war hammer to use a large amount of weight to crush an opponent? Shards are way lighter so it would be like fighting a battle with a paper-mache hammer instead of a steel hammer.

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, The Forgetful Archivist said:

The whole idea of Shard hammers kind of confusing isn't the point of a war hammer to use a large amount of weight to crush an opponent? Shards are way lighter so it would be like fighting a battle with a paper-mache hammer instead of a steel hammer.

Weight is only a portion of it. With a blade, a weapon is designed to cut and damage flesh primarily. 

Hammers were designed because armor had reached a point that it was as hard as the blades and a weapon would ricochet off and do minimal damage. Hammers were designed to dent a dry crush the armor itself. 

A Shard hammer would work for basically the same reason, delivering a blow that deals through maximum amount of damage to the armor of someone in armor designed to block the blade. 

The weapons are only light in comparison to their standard counterparts. A Warhammer shard weapon is still going to have both weight and momentum, and will most likely shatter sections if Shardplate much more effectively that a blade. 

Most Warhammer were also double sided, with a flat crushing surface on one side and a puncturing spike on the other. 

If it weren't for armor these weapons would never have been developed. 

[The Forgetful Archivist]

If we are dealing with Shardplates we need to remember that they absorb impacts really well (we have seen them being used to jump off high places without shattering the user's legs) this means a Shardhammer or any other weapon for that matter would be unable to transfer much force to a person inside a Shardplate. It typically takes 2 hits with a Shardblade to crack a piece of Shardplate, this is because a six-foot-long magic metal sword already has a fair amount of heft to it. Shardblades are special because they can cut the soul, a weapon that doesn't cut ignores the most powerful aspect of a blade.

Edited March 24, 2018 by The Forgetful Archivist

[CrazyRioter]

A hammer has more weight and force behind it then a sword so it'll do more damage to the Plate.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, The Forgetful Archivist said:

If we are dealing with Shardplates we need to remember that they absorb impacts really well (we have seen them being used to jump off high places without shattering the user's legs) this means a Shardhammer or any other weapon for that matter would be unable to transfer much force to a person inside a Shardplate. It typically takes 2 hits with a Shardblade to crack a piece of Shardplate, this is because a six-foot-long magic metal sword already has a fair amount of heft to it. Shardblades are special because they can cut the soul, a weapon that doesn't cut ignores the most powerful aspect of a blade.

And just as the reason warhammers were first designed, that cutting power is meaningless if the force is all deflected away. 

[The One Who Connects]

15 hours ago, Calderis said:

The weapons are only light in comparison to their standard counterparts.

They are light for their size. The things are probably just as heavy as their standard counterparts.

Quote

"It's heavier than I expected."
"Really?" Yake said. "Everyone says they're light."
"Those are people used to a regular sword," Zahel said. "If you've trained all your life with a longsword, then pick up something that looks like it has two or three times as much steel to it, you expect it to weight more. Not less."

(I rescind my second statement. Forgot about that last line.) They shouldn't be that much lighter though @The Forgetful Archivist, as training with a properly weighted sword is important. Lighteyes are trained to be able to take up a Shardblade at a moments notice, and you can't do that if the weight balance is vastly different. Too much over/underswing.

Edited March 24, 2018 by The One Who Connects

[Lepth]

On 3/23/2018 at 8:51 PM, Weltall said:

A hammer is effective when fighting someone with Shardplate

I think I am supposed to say OB here

in mast desolation’s the only people with shards where the knight radiant so why would they need a hammer if their enemy has no shardplate? And in one of dalinars visions the radiant that saves his squad uses a hammer I just don’t see a point.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Lepth said:

I think I am supposed to say OB here

in mast desolation’s the only people with shards where the knight radiant so why would they need a hammer if their enemy has no shardplate? And in one of dalinars visions the radiant that saves his squad uses a hammer I just don’t see a point.

Prior to the reveal with Syl, we had never seen a Radiant using anything other than a sword, vision or not. Those were squires fighting, and the pulled hammers to fight a Thunderclast as swords would be absolutely useless against stone. 

Unless you were fighting someone with armor that can block a blade, a hammer is pointless. We have no idea of the capabilities of those the Radiants fought yet, so... 

[The Deity]

10 hours ago, Lepth said:

in mast desolation’s the only people with shards where the knight radiant so why would they need a hammer if their enemy has no shardplate? And in one of dalinars visions the radiant that saves his squad uses a hammer I just don’t see a point.

When a Radiant is bonded to their spren the weapon is more situational. In WoR Kaladin oft times switches weapons between his battle with Szeth to adjust for the scenario. As for the hammers, it would be pointless against a Thunderclast, but a hammer would cause crippling damage to anyone who was hit. The usage of a hammer itself isn't terrible, but it might be for the feel, because Kaladin uses a spear, because he was accustomed to that weapon.

[The Forgetful Archivist]

2 hours ago, FeruchemicalBreath said:

but a hammer would cause crippling damage to anyone who was hit

I would argue that a shard weapon with a blade would be more effective, bladed weapons can cut souls while shard hammers just smash.

[Calderis]

15 minutes ago, The Forgetful Archivist said:

I would argue that a shard weapon with a blade would be more effective, bladed weapons can cut souls while shard hammers just smash.

Depends on the situation, and what your using it for. As Dalinar shows in the when building the trench, sometimes the blade cuts too well. 

Another example is his choice of a Shard hammer over a blade in his rescue of Sadeas. Throwing bodies away from him rather than having them pole at his feet was useful. 

The blade is not always best, even if it kills the most effectively. 

[Nathrangking]

45 minutes ago, The Forgetful Archivist said:

I would argue that a shard weapon with a blade would be more effective, bladed weapons can cut souls while shard hammers just smash.

While that's true @Calderis makes fair points in terms of being able to have a clear field after dispatching enemies as well as making the point about crushing armor. An additional point that has not as yet been mentioned is the psychological impact of facing this weapon which is raining down heavy blows onto your armor. If you have a shield you are cowering behind it shardplate or no. There is something menacing about something which is designed to fracture and destroy with a couple of blows. If something like that is pounding at your breastplate or helmet you will be scrambling out of the way.

[Quickbronze]

Per this WoB 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

So, the Shardfork. A very versatile, Shard-whatever. Would it be possible to do, like, a Shardrock, or something, that would go in a catapult?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yeah, it has more variety than people would think, but it isn't limitless, what they can become. But that would totally be possible.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

And what would a Shardrock do if it hits you?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Uh, bean them on the head and be really strong. If you can get into the spirit, if you can start getting past the skin and stuff, you can do some serious damage.

source

Blunt shardweapons are still capable of doing a lot of damage. In addition, blunt force weapons(hammers, maces) were historically not super heavy. They'd usually have a handle made of wood and a metal head weighing around three pounds, so in total, the weight would be pretty similar to a sword. The difference between a sword and a mace is balance. A sword is a weapon designed for precision and control, so the center of gravity should be in the hilt. A mace, however, is designed for raw energy, so the center of balance is in the head. Having most of the weight concentrated far away from your hand allows you build up a lot of speed in your attacks. Blunt force weapons weren't designed to be super heavy because if they weighted a lot they wouldn't be practical in battle; the soldiers ueing them would quickly tire out. Considering this, it would be relatively easy to make a viable shardhammer. Though the weapon would be less dense then a normal hammer, you could make up for this with more volume(which could very easily lead to some cartoonishly large shardhammers, coincidentially fitting the style of classic shardblades)

Edited March 25, 2018 by Quickbronze

[The Deity]

22 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

There is something menacing about something which is designed to fracture and destroy with a couple of blows. If something like that is pounding at your breastplate or helmet you will be scrambling out of the way.

True. Also keep in mind the fact that the hammer, depending on the user, could change in size. This could be good in certain situations if you are in a tight area, and even though the Shardblade can cut through anything, swinging a six-foot weapon in a 4-foot wide area would be quite awkward.

Edit: Though the Blade can be more versatile, the hammer is singularly built for bashing. 

Edited March 25, 2018 by FeruchemicalBreath

[Yata]

Someone already mentioned but also Shardhammer could affect the Soul.

You Need only to make a clear and powerful hit that would allow the Shardhammer to surpass the outer layer of the unluckly target.

[SallyA]

Someone already mentioned but also Shardhammer could affect the Soul.
@Yata , . . . Please elaborate.

Edited March 26, 2018 by SallyA
highlight @, not working

[Calderis]

16 minutes ago, SallyA said:

Someone already mentioned but also Shardhammer could affect the Soul.
@Yata , . . . Please elaborate.

As long as the strike penetrates the skin, the weapon will still phase and strike the soul. A blade makes this easier, because it cuts in, easing the process, but if you strike hard enough to push into the being of something, the hammer will do the same. 

That's covered briefly in this WoB. (previously shared by Quickbronze above) 

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

So, the Shardfork. A very versatile, Shard-whatever. Would it be possible to do, like, a Shardrock, or something, that would go in a catapult?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yeah, it has more variety than people would think, but it isn't limitless, what they can become. But that would totally be possible.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

And what would a Shardrock do if it hits you?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Uh, bean them on the head and be really strong. If you can get into the spirit, if you can start getting past the skin and stuff, you can do some serious damage.

source

 

[Lepth]

Okay but if you hit them hard enough to penatrate the skin wouldn’t that just send them flying like move their whole body away it is like hitting a ball with a bat just much more grusum.

[SallyA]

Thank you,  I did not realize that they were refering to tne attachments of Shard weapons to Shadesmar.  . . If that is the case??? 

But it must be more than a connection to Shadesmar.  . To cause the eyes to burn.

Is there anything out there you are aware of about this . . A good search term for the coppermind wiki, perhaps . . 

This is something I had not considered, and I have read a reasonable amount beyond the Stormlight Trilogy.  Not all, by any means, I'n still just a newbie plus.

[Calderis]

@Lepth that depends. Your not going to throw the body once it penetrates if the weapon phases like a blade does.

@SallyA the eyes burn because of something to do with the spiritual damage. Shardblades cut on all three realms, Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual.