Szeth Had an Honorblade...Or Did He? [spoilers]

[BaarZel]

Hi guys, First post on the site. I was wondering about this topic as well.

 

I wonder is it important that Nalan references that szeth's bonds have been broken, "physically and spiritually?" Knowing that there is another realm, the cognitive, and that the spren are of the cognitive world and presumably with what the human is "bonding" with, this omission struck me as particularly salient.

 

Does this imply that Szeth's bond was with something else? is that why Syl finds the blade so horrifying? Just throwing out some thoughts. Really happy to be part of the community!

[Kurkistan]

Spren bonds are Spiritual (forgive me, but I can't find the source at the moment), just so you know. "Connection-y" things tend to be Spiritual in nature.

 

Welcome to the forums, btw!

[FlatLine]

I read it as he had an honor blade and that the shen people still had 7 of them. The heralds were obviously strong people and some how special besides just their blades. Look at how Taln was able to catch the blow dart and how big and strong he is. I think the honor blades gives each fractions powers with out needing a spren. 

[Raventhal]

I think you guys are over thinking this. The blade was bonded like a shardblade until he died.  They're no spren inside and they give powers.

[kraefzke]

The WoB that you cannot bond an Honorblade does not necessarily exclude the existence of a bond. It could be interpreted as "you cannot bond an Honorblade [yourself]". Maybe it becomes bonded, when it is given to you, however.

[Aminar]

It seems pretty likely this is reaching too far. Szeth wouldn't be able to do what he did if he were a Windrunner. Or even a Skybreaker(He didn't get the proper paperwork), meaning he doesn't have a Spren Bond. How else did he get surgebinding?

[Ruzinus]

Now after seeing Kal and hearing KR powers were returning to the world Szeth fled back to his master Taravangian because he was beginning to think he isn't really Truthless. Taravangian then told Szeth that Kaladin was using an Honorblade the KR powers weren't really returning, Szeth was still an anomaly and therefore still Truthless.

 

Now knowing that Szeth knows what an honorblade bestows upon its weilder, we know he hasn't been tricked by means of having an honorblade forced upon him into thinking he is Truthless.

 

That... is a really really good point.  Especially because Kaladin is a Windrunner.  Okay so-

 

I'm operating under the assumption that each Honorblade gives access to a single surge, or a set of surges matching one of the orders of the Knights Radiant.  One surge per makes sense in part because each Herald having a surge just kind of fits, but mostly because we haven't seen Szeth use any other surges, and it seems like he would if he could (and yes, that itself becomes pointless if we assume it's NOT an Honorblade, but bear with me for a second).  If I'm wrong and an Honorblade does something crazy and give you every surge then what I'm about to say is utterly pointless, but... well, like you said, Szeth accepts the explanation that Kaladin must have an Honorblade.  He's clearly at this point partially ignoring reality in order to maintain the idea that he is Truthless.  Nonetheless, for Kaladin to get his powers from an Honorblade, it must be the same Honorblade that Szeth has.  Even in a state of denial, that would be too ridiculous for Szeth to accept.  Therefore, Szeth MUST not believe he has an Honorblade.  This would also be backed up by the simple fact that the narration has referred to it as a Shardblade, not an Honorblade, in every Szeth chapter.  We know that the narration speaks of things not as they are, but as the characters view them ("...then summoned her awesomeness." XD).

 

HOWEVER.  Could Szeth have been tricked?  That also seems ridiculous at first glance, but consider the following:

 

"AhbuttheywereleftbehindItisobviousfromthenatureofthebond

ButwherewherewherewhereSetoffObviousRealizationlikeapricity

TheyarewiththeShinWemustfindoneCanwemaketouseaTruthless

Canwecraftaweapon

   ---From the Diagram, Floorboard 17: paragraph 2, every second letter starting with the first"

 

It is not clear if Taravangian is talking about the Honorblades or the Heralds, but either way it seems that his intent is to make and use a truthless.  Consider this:  When Szeth goes looking for answers after Kaladin says he's a Windrunner, he goes not to the Shamanate, but to Taravangian.  Why?  Wouldn't the Shamanate be the correct place to question his status as Truthless?  Unless Taravangian had something to do with Szeth becoming Truthless.

 

Could Taravangian have contacted Jezrien and asked for his help?  Could he have convinced Jezrien to send his blade to an unfortunate Shin man?

 

[Kurkistan]

I'd like to note that I'm with Shardlet in thinking that this is mostly a misunderstanding on our part. Anything else is rather silly, I think.

One thing I'd like to note is that, at the point where Szeth was convinced that Kaldin had one of the 2 Regrowth-enabling Honorblades, he hadn't seen Kaladin do anything but glow and heal his arm. The arm-healing in particular, it seems, is supposed to be impossible with infused-Stormlight from an Honorblade but okay with even Honorblade-Regrowth. Sure Kaladin claimed to be a Windrunner, but he never actually used any Lashings.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Moogle]

I'm operating under the assumption that each Honorblade gives access to a single surge, or a set of surges matching one of the orders of the Knights Radiant.  One surge per makes sense in part because each Herald having a surge just kind of fits, but mostly because we haven't seen Szeth use any other surges, and it seems like he would if he could (and yes, that itself becomes pointless if we assume it's NOT an Honorblade, but bear with me for a second).

 

Szeth uses all three Lashings in TWoK, which use Adhesion and Gravity. He definitely 100% has both Surges.

[AerionBFII]

I think The Honorblades grant the full powers of of each order they represent but i think in the hands of the rightful Heralds they can do more.

Taln stopped two blowdarts rather easily and Darkness/Nin chased Lift quite easily and she states he must be awesome too.

I don't think Nin has the Nahel Bond, i think  all the Heralds might be naturally more powerful than regular humans.

[Tempus]

There's a better possibility. Nalan is a liar. We know very little of Nalan, his origins, or intentions. We are certainly not sure that it is the original herald. All we have are guesses. The most likely scenario in my mind, is that Nalan, aprised of the situation, chose the words and terms most suitable to convince the truthless Szeth. He wants Szeth for his own reasons, after all.

[BaarZel]

I think I found the some more support for Szeth knowing that his sword is not an Honorblade

 

“Yes,” Taravangian said. “I have heard only hints. Your people are secretive. But yes . . . I see, it is one of the two that allow Regrowth. Kholin must have it.”

Szeth swayed back and forth, though he did not seem conscious of the motion. Even now, he moved with a fighter’s grace. Storms.

“This man I fought,” Szeth said, “he summoned no Blade.”

“But he used Stormlight,” Taravangian said.

“Yes.”

“So he must have an Honorblade.”

“I . . .”

“It is the only explanation.”

“It . . .” Szeth’s voice grew colder. “Yes, the only explanation. I will kill him and retrieve it.”

 

granted it is only supposition on my part, but I believe Szeth was about to say something like "I use stormlight and have no Honorblade" before being shot down by Mr T. that kind of response is the only thing that would weren't the cutoff the Mr T interjected.

 

That combined with the "impossible" bond, and his blade looking nothing like the honorblade descriptions in the prologue leave me pretty certain that Szeth's sword was not an Honorblade.

 

Also, if it was the blade that granted Szeth his powers, and Nalan broke that bond, then we should see Szeth pretty much powerless. Which would kind have make him a weird asset for Nalan to want anyway.

 

On a rather sidenote, and this might be discussed elsewhere, but does anyone else think it interesting that we see Nalan take down a surgebinder with regrowth, and then we see him use regrowth on Szeth? Could is have captured Ym's spren for the fabrial? 

[FlatLine]

 

I think I found the some more support for Szeth knowing that his sword is not an Honorblade

 

“Yes,” Taravangian said. “I have heard only hints. Your people are secretive. But yes . . . I see, it is one of the two that allow Regrowth. Kholin must have it.”

Szeth swayed back and forth, though he did not seem conscious of the motion. Even now, he moved with a fighter’s grace. Storms.

“This man I fought,” Szeth said, “he summoned no Blade.”

“But he used Stormlight,” Taravangian said.

“Yes.”

“So he must have an Honorblade.”

“I . . .”

“It is the only explanation.”

“It . . .” Szeth’s voice grew colder. “Yes, the only explanation. I will kill him and retrieve it.”

 

granted it is only supposition on my part, but I believe Szeth was about to say something like "I use stormlight and have no Honorblade" before being shot down by Mr T. that kind of response is the only thing that would weren't the cutoff the Mr T interjected.

 

That combined with the "impossible" bond, and his blade looking nothing like the honorblade descriptions in the prologue leave me pretty certain that Szeth's sword was not an Honorblade.

 

Also, if it was the blade that granted Szeth his powers, and Nalan broke that bond, then we should see Szeth pretty much powerless. Which would kind have make him a weird asset for Nalan to want anyway.

 

On a rather sidenote, and this might be discussed elsewhere, but does anyone else think it interesting that we see Nalan take down a surgebinder with regrowth, and then we see him use regrowth on Szeth? Could is have captured Ym's spren for the fabrial? 

 

 

I'm fairly positive that he does have an honor blade, it makes complete sense. He is truth less because he said that the KR were coming back, but his people said that it was a lie. If he finds out that the KR really have returned, then he isn't truth less. Mr. T doesn't want to lose a valuable asset yet and would like to kill off Dalinar. I don't know everything I read pointed to Szeth having an honor blade, he has no spren, when Kaladin catches his sword it doesn't scream, etc, but you never know... I do believe that Szeth won't have any of his surge binding powers, but Nightblood is definitely going to give him something else. 

[Kurkistan]

EDIT: Forgot what thread I was in for a moment, changed response.

 

One thing to note: Even Brandon will come out and say that Szeth had an Honorblade.

 

Source:

Q: Does Szeth have any Surgebinding powers . . . losing the honorblade?

A: He would not have any after losing the honorblade. However, he has been approached by a member of one of the orders. And so, it's entirely possible that you would see him going somewhere with that. He also has a very special sword, that does very special things.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Shardlet]

On a rather sidenote, and this might be discussed elsewhere, but does anyone else think it interesting that we see Nalan take down a surgebinder with regrowth, and then we see him use regrowth on Szeth? Could is have captured Ym's spren for the fabrial? 

 

 

Props on the sidenote.  This may smack of some hemalurgy-esque practice.   It is curious.  Of course, assuming that he actually is Nalan (which I do), he has had a lot of time to collect some interesting and useful artifacts.  I wonder how such a fabriel would be charged.  Modern fabriels are charged simply with stormlight.  But in Starfalls, the amber KR say she doesn't want to waste "regrowth" rather than stormlight.  This suggests to me different operation possibly.

 

EDIT: Forgot what thread I was in for a moment, changed response.

 

One thing to note: Even Brandon will come out and say that Szeth had an Honorblade.

 

Source:

 

That just leaves us wanting for clarity on the apparent conflict between the WoB saying no bond and Nalan saying bond (coupled with Szeth summoning and dismissing).

[Shardlet]

Here's a double post to provide to provide some new info courtesy of Luke.Spence.

 

 

Q: 2b. You mentioned that human can’t bond Honorblades, but Nalan tells Szeth that his bond  

with his Honorblade has been broken. Can you clear this up?

 

A: Humans CAN bond Honorblades. There's a crucial difference between Honorblades and Shardblades. When you drop an Honorblade, it does not disappear, even if it has been bonded. A Shardblade will disappear when dropped. 

source

 

So, it appears that there was indeed a communication error between Brandon and Talenelat.  It seems very clear that Szeth did indeed have an Honorblade (again, almost certainly Jezrien's).

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

Couple all this with what I'm surprised no one else mentioned.

• The Parshendi know about honorblades
• knew they left one in Alethkar presumably with Szeth, otherwise we need to start looking for another Honorblade in tWoK/WoR somewhere
• and they know that surgebinding is granted by Honorblades. 

I also don't understand the apparent power differential between a fully powered KR and a Herald, but I'm assuming that has to do with us having never seen a Herald in good standing with his Oath, wielding the full might of Honor and their Honorblade. 

[Matrim Bloody Cauthon]

@Aloysius

 

szeth had said that he was named truthless because of asking questions about the knights radiant and the voidbringers.

I think that he was made truthless because the stone shamans didn't want the shin people to be involved in any of the wars and desolations.

[Mar10]

I think the power difference between the KR and the Heralds stems from the fact we haven't seen a Herald at full power yet.  There is a WoB somewhere that states that the Heralds received their surgebindings from the HonorBlades but they had their own 'powers' in addition to those.

 

Soemthing else that just popped into my head (lot of room there for popping).  What if originally the Shardplate was not powered by the KR's stormlight but the sotehouse for it?  The plate would get charged up and that would be where the knights would draw their stormlight from.  That would explain why it would glow, it was so charges with light that it had to.  But then, maybe not.  just spitballin here.