[OB] Let's talk Rlain

[MonsterMetroid]

Hey sharders, I have been thinking about this interaction that happened on reddit and wanted to get your thoughts on it

Quote

Doomquill

Frustrated with the editing/beta readers for not noticing Brandon leaving out a character.

The character I'm talking about is Rlain. An entire part of the book was spent with every single member of Bridge Four talking about how Rlain wasn't really a part of things, and even more so Rlain himself in his POV chapter. And then nothing! We get a conclusion to the whole buildup of Bridge Four, but Rlain is nowhere mentioned in the last half of the book. Nevermind that we've all spent an entire book (and the three years since WoR) wondering if Rlain will become a squire, and nevermind that we get an answer to whether a Parshman can become Radiant in the first place. We just get nothing! No resolution.

Peter Ahlstrom

Everyone noticed this. I noticed it even before the beta read started. Brandon was well aware, and this was all intentional. I'll bet you can think of some reasons for it.

The last time we saw rlain IIRC he was going to try to explain to kaladin what being him felt like and then scene ends. What do you think has happened between then and the end of the book? Do you think Rlain could turn? Do you think maybe he has been busying himself with something else, like maybe the survivors of Neurok? Whats your thoughts?

[Calderis]

Considering the next book is going to focus pretty heavily on the listeners through Eshonai's flashbacks, and we have a second seemingly dropped thread in the group of listeners that fled Narak... 

Not sure if Rlain is trying to search for survivors to see if he's really alone... Or what the reason is. But two seemingly dropped threads involving listeners before a book that's going to have them as a major focal point to... I just can't be a coincidence. 

[Isilel]

So, the way Rlain was handled in OB really frustrates me.

First of, nobody thinks to ask him about anything, while they are agonizing about how little they know about what is happening to the parshmen, their new capabilities, etc. I mean, what? Even if Rlain can't answer all of their questions, it would have been a very obvious first step to ask for his insights. And as it happens, listener "Songs of..." actually have some clues. Not even to Jasnah, who was so obssessed with parsh history and the bearing that it might have on the present, did it occur to plumb this excellent source of information?

Also, Dalinar was so eager to find out why the Parshendi turned on his brother and why they refused any messages after that and until Eshonai's ill-fated parley, preferring to fight a losing war of extermination, - and now he can't even be bothered to ask?

And I could understand if the Kholins just simply forgot about Rlain - but Renarin was right there with him, as part of the Bridge Four and simultaneously was an integral part of Dalinar's councils. Also, how could the scholars who have questioned Rlain in WoR possibly forget about him?

But there is more - when Bridge 4 had to fight Re-Shepir, one of his people's former, "gods" of legend,  I really expected some reaction out of him. Either at the time or afterwards, in his PoV. Nada.

And yes, finally, his missing talk with Kal.

As to where it is all going, I firmly believe that Rlain will become one of the Bondsmiths, likely Nightwatcher's if she is indeed one of their spren. Something unprecedented needs to happen for anti-Odium side to have a chance - a good chunk of singers needs to ally with humans. And after everything, it will take nothing less than a Bondsmith of their own to make it happen.

And no, it can't be a Horneater, for all that Rock does have some Bondsmithy qualities. Horneaters are considered fellow humans by other humans, they have been Radiants in the past, etc. The necessary dynamic and trust aren't there.

It has to be a listener because new singers just don't enough life experience to fulfill the role. Rlain's unique position as a bridge between humans and listeners (once he finds out about the escaped refusniks) already pre-disposes him for this task, though admittedly, Eshonai's flashbacks could also introduce somebody else who could do it.

And there is another matter - which, I am not sure if it is an oversight or something else - there should be thousands of listener children somewhere. Maybe even tens of thousands. There allegedly were 100K listeners or more before the war and even if they mostly stopped having kids during it - though they had _some_ mateforms among them, so some children must have been conceived during the war as well, all the kids who were young when the war broke out should still be around.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Isilel

[MonsterMetroid]

36 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Not sure if Rlain is trying to search for survivors to see if he's really alone... Or what the reason is. But two seemingly dropped threads involving listeners before a book that's going to have them as a major focal point to... I just can't be a coincidence. 

Agreed! not to mention we have a THIRD thread that dropped in the last book with Thuud and the other rebels fates being unknown from WoR. I think Brandon really wants us to assume they are dead and I suppose that the only one that could know of their existence at this point is Venli.

I'm really starting to think that Rlain did find the survivors through the rhythms or something, but that he is concerned that the humans won't be too thrilled about them since he gets hated looks in the tower. Not to mention

1 minute ago, Isilel said:

First of, nobody thinks to ask him about anything, while they are agonizing about how little they know about what is happening to the parshmen, they new capabilities, etc. I mean, what? Even if Rlain can't answer all of their questions, it would have been a very obvious first step to ask for his insights. And as it happens, listener "Songs of..." actually have some clues. Not even to Jasnah, who was so obssessed with parsh history and the bearing that it might have on the present, did it occur to plumb this excellent source of information?

Good point! The only think I can figure is it fits in with the way they viewed the Parshmen as invisible... but that does seem like a stretch since he is in warform now

3 minutes ago, Isilel said:

As to where it is all going, I firmly believe that Rlain will become one of the Bondsmiths, likely Nightwatcher's if she is indeed one of their spren. Something unprecedented needs to happen for anti-Odium side to have a chance - a good chunk of singers needs to ally with humans. And after everything, it will take nothing less than a Bondsmith of their own to make it happen.

Woah... interesting... I am onboard with this especially with the time gap we know that something will have to happen and seeing rlains PoV in the next book for the parts we missed is definately not out of the question. Heck it could be that Rlain and Venli both function as the modern vehicles for Eschonais flashbacks. Super interesting

Edited January 12, 2018 by MonsterMetroid
added response to Isilel

[Subvisual Haze]

I could see this being one of two things.  The already expressed suspicion that he has gone on a mission to search for his lost people (after speaking to Kaladin about his struggles) is a great guess.

My guess would be that Rlain was with Bridge 4 the whole time.  One of Rlain's biggest themes in his POV is how the humans in Bridge 4, despite legitimately trying very hard to befriend him, still tend to ignore him and exclude him without consciously intending to.  Without Kaladin or Rock drawing the attention of others to him, most of Bridge 4 might just forget to remember him.  It's casual ingrained prejudice that most of Bridge 4 won't even realize they have.  It mirrors the unconscious prejudices and biases that are very common and very difficult to deal with in the real world.  It's a great example of a "micro-aggression", used in an academic sense instead of as an internet inflammatory buzzword.  The offenders don't consciously realize they're doing something wrong, the offended doesn't want to bring it up for fear of upsetting people.

The fact that none of the POV characters think about him (and many of the readers, myself included, don't immediately notice his absence) is the use of narrative structure by Brandon to drive home a point.  "Show but don't tell" you could say

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

1 hour ago, MonsterMetroid said:

Agreed! not to mention we have a THIRD thread that dropped in the last book with Thuud and the other rebels fates being unknown from WoR.

Woah, @MonsterMetroid I think you just stumbled onto the Onomatopoeia for the sound of a dropped thread in a story, "Thuud"

[StormingTexan]

Don't drop that Thuud Thuud

[MonsterMetroid]

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

It has to be a listener because new singers just don't enough life experience to fulfill the role. Rlain's unique position as a bridge between humans and listeners (once he finds out about the escaped refusniks) already pre-disposes him for this task, though admittedly, Eshonai's flashbacks could also intrdouce somebody else who could do it.

Just re-reading your post and I like how this would bring a WHOLE new meaning to Rlain being a Bridgeman. More and more because if nothing else Bridge 4 does act as a connection and a glue to bring and keep things together. If Rlain was able to join the remaining Parshendi to the Humans that would be quite the bridge for him to carry.

[Weltall]

Yeah, Rlain's absence from the story after his PoV chapter was quite conspicuous. I'm on board with the idea that he's somehow gotten involved with the other obvious dropped listener plot thread and thus he didn't appear because he was off doing other things that we won't learn about until the next book. The idea that he really was there and the other characters just didn't think about him because of unconscious racism has plenty of validity too, but I'm going with the 'something happening offscreen' idea as feeling more likely.

[Nuatoma]

Not to create a tangent, but as I've been reading this I remembered a question from the book.  Do both Listeners and Singers refer to Parshendi? Or was one the parshmen before transformation? 

 

3 hours ago, Isilel said:

As to where it is all going, I firmly believe that Rlain will become one of the Bondsmiths, likely Nightwatcher's if she is indeed one of their spren. Something unprecedented needs to happen for anti-Odium side to have a chance - a good chunk of singers needs to ally with humans. And after everything, it will take nothing less than a Bondsmith of their own to make it happen.

 

This sparked an interesting thought.  If Rlain becomes a Bondsmith and a sizable portion of Parshendi are behind him and with the human coalition, how would this effect the Skybreakers?  If the 'rightful' rulers of Roshar are on opposite sides, who would they choose to follow?

[digitalbusker]

2 minutes ago, Rock's Stew said:

Not to create a tangent, but as I've been reading this I remembered a question from the book.  Do both Listeners and Singers refer to Parshendi? Or was one the parshmen before transformation?

Listeners is what the Parshendi call(ed) themselves. Singers is what the Fused and the Voidspren are telling the transformed Parsh to call themselves. I find that second bit a little problematic. But so is calling them all Parsh or Parsh-something.

[Song]

On 1/13/2018 at 7:36 AM, digitalbusker said:

Listeners is what the Parshendi call(ed) themselves. Singers is what the Fused and the Voidspren are telling the transformed Parsh to call themselves. I find that second bit a little problematic. But so is calling them all Parsh or Parsh-something.

It is a facinating distinction. Listening is more passive, but also more self-less. Singers is more direct. Makes me think about the old rhythms verses the new. A small but very cool distinction.

I hope that Rlain is on a secret mission, that would be a great start to book 4. Anyone remember the location of the listener home before they moved to Narak?

[TheMediocreMind]

25 minutes ago, Song said:

I hope that Rlain is on a secret mission, that would be a great start to book 4. Anyone remember the location of the listener home before they moved to Narak?

I'm pretty sure somewhere in WoR Eshonai says that they used to live in the broken dome structures where the Alethi now make their war camps. They abandoned their home for the safety of Narak (exile) after ordering Gavilar's assassination.

[Weltall]

On 1/12/2018 at 0:31 PM, Rock's Stew said:

Not to create a tangent, but as I've been reading this I remembered a question from the book.  Do both Listeners and Singers refer to Parshendi? Or was one the parshmen before transformation?

If the gem archive is to be believed, the term 'parsh' came into existence shortly before the Recreance, though we don't know where it came from. Since nobody we see on Team Odium uses the word and it fits in with the human terminology ('Parshendi' apparently meaning 'Thinking Parshman') it probably originated with the humans. Given the revelation that the Dawnsingers of Vorin mythology were the original inhabitants of the planet, it seems like the Fused and Voidspren are being honest about what the race used to call itself, with the 'singer' term.

Given that Book 4 is Eshonai's and what happened with Venli in this one, we'll probably learn why the group that became the listeners chose that name for themselves... in a couple years. xD

[.S.A.M.K.M]

Rlain was a spy/scout, so could have been known to the five or Eshonai. So they would possibly have some kind of history.

[ghajan monk]

I always thought that Rlain would be a Windrunner simply because he is part of bridge four and the only Spren we know are in the area are Honorspren. His talk with Kaladin could lead to him becoming a squire which could then draw the attention of one of the Honorspren.

However if he were to become part of one of the other orders that might be interesting.

The fact that there can only be one or two more Bondsmiths does lower his chances. (We know there was one Bondsmith at the time of the recreance so one of the spren may be dead) on the other hand Rlain could be important enough to become the second Bondsmith.

Rlain also has plenty of truths to tell, so he may attract a Cryptic.

He also cares for a people no-one else seems to care about so perhaps he could be an Edgedancer. (I could see lift taking him on as a squire then bullying a spren into bonding him, with Wyndle watching on in dismay.)

I don't think he would join any of the other orders at this point. (I could be wrong though.)

Picturing Rlain as Lift's squire stands out to me as the most entertaining option, so that is the one I am voting for.

On a different note, active listening can take as much or more effort than singing especially if you are listening for rhythms hidden within rhythms.

Edited January 15, 2018 by ghajan monk

[Kaladin Zahel]

I think there was an oversight in not explaining Rlains absence. However, it seems like an obvious outlined intention.

We and Brandon know the danger of Rlain being present fighting against Odium's forces: he could be easily posessed by a Fused. 

In-world it can be realistically presumed that the coalition would be wary of friendlies attacking him accidentally. Also, we know from the previous two books that the parshmen were left out of battles in order to prevent inciting them to fight for their people.

I personally believe Rlain will be a story casualty. There is already too many things going the way of the good guys. I'm also certain that Kaladin is going to continue to have betrayal and hard lessons in his future and Rlain plays well into this. Brandon seemingly forgetting about Rlain or at least reducing his importance tells me not to invest in him going foward.

[ghajan monk]

Xxx@Kaladin Zahel I actually had the opposite reaction with Rlain not appearing after his talk with Kaladin. It seems to me that Rlain has been put in the same shelf that Brandon is keeping the other listeners, which in my mind indicates that whatever he has planned for them will have a big impact he does not want to reveal yet. 

32 minutes ago, Kaladin Zahel said:

We and Brandon know the danger of Rlain being present fighting against Odium's forces: he could be easily posessed by a Fused. 

To quote one of the fused: "this is a new body offered to me in sacrifice," Leshwi said "to bond and make my own, as I have none."

I do not believe the fused can possess a listener who does not initially offer their body to the Fused. We saw from Venli that she and the others were tricked into bonding the Fused. It is highly unlikely that Rlain would be open to taking a form of power from Odium like Venli was.  

[Song]

1 hour ago, Kaladin Zahel said:

 

We and Brandon know the danger of Rlain being present fighting against Odium's forces: he could be easily posessed by a Fused.

Rlain mentions Listeners can't change forms without being willing. It is part of his frustration in his POV chapter, that they doubt him despite his assurances about how it works. 

[dvoraen]

I kind of wonder if this absence is going to be very relevant for one particular reason:

[Humans] cannot hear Roshar.

The exact implications of that are probably going to be significant, which is probably why it was introduced so late into the book, which I'll wager is tied to Venli and Rlain's roles.  There's also another "little" problem that will undoubtedly arise that will draw the focus heavily on the non-Fused singers: Ba-Ado-Mishram.

[Stark]

I also found it discordant that Rlain was missing from part five.  I do hope he is working on finding the survivors of Narak, but I don't know how he would know of them.  I do think, that going forward this conflict will shift, and it won't be humans versus singers and human collaborators.  That is too black and white, and lacks nuance.

 

Given how many spren distrust humans and don't want to work with them, I see book four shifting the lines of battle, so we will have the Radiants and Listeners/Singers who reject Odium versus the followers of the fused and worshippers of Odium.  And Rlain, even in warform, with Radiant Venli, will be a good start to that movement.

 

I think the reason why Rlain has never manifested as a squire is two fold.  First, Kaladin has had to practically be clubbed in the head and notice/include him since the beginning.  You see that from the debate as to whether Rlain gets a spear or not. "Am I Bridge Four, or am I a slave?" (Heavily paraphrased)  Kaladin sees him as part of bridge four, but has a degree of reservation.  Much of that left after travelling among the singers, but he still has to view Rlain as a squire.  The other half is Rlain himself, who views himself as apart from the group, like Renarin, while trying to be part of it.  This starts to be fixed when Kaladin asks him to try to describe the loneliness, but it is only a start.

 

He will eventually be a squire, I think.  But his dynamic with Kaladin, and both of their thought processes need work for it to happen.  It is like the Stormfather told Dalinar about the soldiers eating speres.  They are doing it backwards.  You must approach Radiance, then the light will come.  You can't eat the light to gain Radiance.  If Rlain does not believe he can become Radiant, he will have a far more difficult time approaching it.  It will help if he gets a chance to see Venli in her Radiance.

On 1/12/2018 at 0:23 PM, Isilel said:

Rlain's unique position as a bridge between humans and listeners

I think this will happen.  Not sure about him becoming a Bondsmith though, or a Windrunner.  He needs to figure out his intent before he can attract a spren.  Right now, it feels as if he is with Bridge Four because he has nowhere else to go.  He thinks his people are dead, or worse, changed.  He has nowhere else to be.  This is as close to family as he will get, and even they fail to understand him in fundamental ways, and are casually racist about his people, although they apologize.  He is there out of loneliness.  Loneliness is not a desire to protect, which does not make him a Windrunner.  One could go the philosophical route that he is protecting the image and memory of his people and who they were among the Alethi, but I feel that is more esoteric than the Windrunner Oaths usually go.

 

So he must overcome his current depression, because he feels depressed to me.  Not to the same extent as Kaladin, but depressed all the same.  IF he can pull himself from the darkness, even temporarily, and focus on an intent, he may well attract a radiant spren.  And then we will see him come into the role of bridging the two peoples, humans and parsh.

 

Or, you know, he will focus to much on the concept of bridge in the highstorm, attract the wrong lesser spren to his gemheart, and adopt Bridgeform.  At which point Bridge Four would have to carry him everywhere, but feel too guilty to use him as a bridge, or worse, side-carry him.  And his conversations would reduce to stick level: "I am Rlain.  I am a bridge."  

 

That would be bad.  I do not want that to happen.

 

But I do want to see more of him and see how his story will progress.  And know what he was doing during the battle of Thaylen City.

 

Unless he was captured by the diagram when they stole the blade.  And no one noticed because they are used to him fading into the background of training and everything else.  Except Rock and Renarin, who include him.  But Renarin was in Thaylen when that went down, and Rock was too injured until they got to Thaylen city to notice he was missing!  Could Rlain have been captured by the Diagram or the Fused?

Edited January 24, 2018 by Stark
Grammar

[WhiteLeeopard]

I wondered if he was spying on the Singers, but I doubt that, as it would be too dangerous and wouldn't gain much information anyways since all power is in the Fused hands. Which I guess just leaves finding the rest of the Listeners. The only possible hint that they might exist was Rlain's question on WoR that the children at the very least must not have transformed. (Actually raises the question what form do parsh children have?). I was quite unhappy Rlain didn't appear more on OB, as I always was fond of him and wanted to see him glowing. Squire or KR either was fine by me. Not happy Bridge 4 is excluding him even if just unconsciously.

[Stark]

@WhiteLeeopard I would assume the parsh children have a neutral form that is static, between nimble and work forms.  We would call this childform, if it exists.  I would guess that they are constrained to this one form until puberty, when their gemheart forms.  Their first form change would be a coming of age ceremony, and also speak to the type of person they will be based on what they choose their form to be. 

 

None of this is canon, or confirmed anywhere, just my assumptions.  I would assume that slaveform has a hack to it that allows them to procreate sans mateform, which begs the question - Are the parsh only capable of procreating in mateform, or do they only feel the desire to in mateform?  Because the listeners were in dullform for generations before they rediscovered any of the other forms, so they must have been able to procreate in dullform, even if they had no real drive to do so.

 

Mateform probably makes procreation more desirable, and safer for childbirth.  But I assume that the children are either born into the same form as their parent - mateform, slaveform or dullform based on what we've seen, or, if born by mateform, they have childform which they keep til there first change, but can never reclaim.  I hope Brandon addresses it, I'm really curious.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Stark

[CrazyRioter]

I think we actually have WOB that it is possible for them to procreate in any form but they are much more fertile in mateform and I think they don't actively desire sex when not in mateform.

[The One Who Connects]

4 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

I think we actually have WOB that it is possible for them to procreate in any form but they are much more fertile in mateform and I think they don't actively desire sex when not in mateform.

Neuter is a rather nonnegotiable term.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson
So, basically, in my original notes I was trying to decide if I should call them [something else?] but they-- eventually we ended up-- It's basically, they have a male neuter and female neuter, and then a male and a female. So yes, there are four genders. [...] And, if you can't tell, the malen and femalen are both asexual, completely.