theory Voidlight is not Odium's Investiture!

[StrikerEZ he/him]

1 minute ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

Absolutely! 

Although, a small part of me does wonder if Truthwatchers weren't always fortune tellers.  After all, a true fortune teller actually watches for the truth, right?  Everyone always says that predicting the future is of Odium, but we watch Honor do it in Dalinar's visions.  And then Honor says he's not nearly as good at seeing the future as Cultivation:

And then we also know that the Truthwatchers were very secretive of their Order.

The crystal panes Renarin uses to tell the future in seem much like the crystal panes that Wyndle makes.  Of course, we never see the future in Wyndle.  I count this theory as plausible though perhaps unlikely.

I think it's highly likely that the Radiants only said that Sja-Anat couldn't corrupt True Spren, but they actually thought she could the entire time, but weren't sure because they hadn't seen her do it. Of course, it's also possible not even she knew she could until she tried, but the Radiants weren't gonna risk that, hence the warnings to leave cities with corrupted spren-you don't want your true spren, the very source ornate your power, being corrupted. 

Also, I think that the futuresight that Renarin has is definitely not a normal Truthwatcher ability. It's involuntary and unwanted, which is not how we've seen every other Radiant use their Surges so far. Plus, I don't know how Progression and Illumination could be used to see the future. 

I think it's more likely that Renarin is a combination of a surgebinder and a voidbinder. He has the surgebinding Progression surge and the voidbinding Illumination surge, which allows him to see the future. 

In addition, I don't think anything that the Fused are doing is voidbinding. From what we've seen, it appears that the Fused use the Surges exactly the same way as the Radiants, plus they only appear to have one each. I, along with several others, think that what the Fused are doing is just surgebinding hacked with voidlight. 

[Mutantspicy]

1 hour ago, StrikerEZ said:

I think the voice Venli hears in her failed Fused transformation was Odium himself. As we see later in the book, Odium can visit her during the Everstorm's passing. Plus, she was handpicked for her role with envoyform, so it wouldn't be that big of a shocker that the voice she heard was Odium telling the Fused to go away because he had plans for Venli. Plus, why would a Fused listen to anything telling it to stop, other than BAM or Odium himself?

I thought this at first, but its just not the case.  The VOICE said, paraphrase, "I'm taking this one and entered her gemstone, bound with her, giving the form of envoy."  Odium wouldn't become trapped inside of Venli's gemstone to ultimately allow Timbre to bind with her and trap him inside of her.   That doesn't jive with me..  The Voice did seem older, wise even  possibly more ancient than the other more aggressive powerful voidspren trying to take over.  Perhaps one of the Unmade IDK it did feel different and significant.   Definitely not Odium tho.  Venli and Renarin are the crossover wildcards in this mess.  This could signify the Traitor/spy manuever people have been expecting imagine a radiant with an unmade at her core.   More and more, I think the investiture whatever it is, honor and cultivation mixmatch or all three together, is common and available to everyone.  Its simply the religion that is creating the divisions(limitations) between the sides and in total Sanderson fashion its about how the people (parshcendi included) handle the temptations and ward off the influences.  

[Varion he/him]

31 minutes ago, Mutantspicy said:

1 hour ago, StrikerEZ said:

I think the voice Venli hears in her failed Fused transformation was Odium himself. As we see later in the book, Odium can visit her during the Everstorm's passing. Plus, she was handpicked for her role with envoyform, so it wouldn't be that big of a shocker that the voice she heard was Odium telling the Fused to go away because he had plans for Venli. Plus, why would a Fused listen to anything telling it to stop, other than BAM or Odium himself?

I thought this at first, but its just not the case.  The VOICE said, paraphrase, "I'm taking this one and entered her gemstone, bound with her, giving the form of envoy."  Odium wouldn't become trapped inside of Venli's gemstone to ultimately allow Timbre to bind with her and trap him inside of her.   That doesn't jive with me..  The Voice did seem older, wise even  possibly more ancient than the other more aggressive powerful voidspren trying to take over.  Perhaps one of the Unmade IDK it did feel different and significant.   Definitely not Odium tho.  Venli and Renarin are the crossover wildcards in this mess.  This could signify the Traitor/spy manuever people have been expecting imagine a radiant with an unmade at her core.   More and more, I think the investiture whatever it is, honor and cultivation mixmatch or all three together, is common and available to everyone.  Its simply the religion that is creating the divisions(limitations) between the sides and in total Sanderson fashion its about how the people (parshcendi included) handle the temptations and ward off the influences.

I think it was Odium that spoke to Venli in the storm, but then he gave her an envoy voidspren. As @StrikerEZ says, how could a "witless voidspren" as it is referred to later in the interlude, have the authority to say "CHOOSE ANOTHER. THIS ONE IS MINE" and the power to force a Fused out of Venli's gemheart. 

The clincher for me though is in a later Interlude, I-11 Her Reward, when Odium visits her directly during another Everstorm and berates her for not telling the story well enough. He finishes the conversation with the most brutal sign off ever:

Quote

You are mine. Remember this. 

She was vaporised completely. 

Oathbringer, I-11, Her Reward, p. 846 US Hardcover Edition

"This one is mine." and "You are mine". Both Odium. 

 

[Mutantspicy]

9 minutes ago, Varion said:

I think it was Odium that spoke to Venli in the storm, but then he gave her an envoy voidspren. As @StrikerEZ says, how could a "witless voidspren" as it is referred to later in the interlude, have the authority to say "CHOOSE ANOTHER. THIS ONE IS MINE" and the power to force a Fused out of Venli's gemheart. 

The clincher for me though is in a later Interlude, I-11 Her Reward, when Odium visits her directly during another Everstorm and berates her for not telling the story well enough. He finishes the conversation with the most brutal sign off ever:

"This one is mine." and "You are mine". Both Odium. 

 

This makes more sense.  But I not sure about the witless voidspren part, considering an envoy is a power form. Ulim is an envoy for example,  Perhaps he took venli, perhaps Ulim is the everstorm. I'm not sure.  I do remember that being said in the interlude, but I also remember it feeling like posturing. Odium as we can see is very proud, emotional, arrogant and sometimes misinformed.  Aka if she was totally his, she wouldn't have been able to take the oaths..... or would she?????     that's the fun bit. 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

17 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

Honestly, I think you guys are reading too much into the Voidbinding chart. Brandon has said that he let Isaac (I think, it might've been a different artist) have a little bit of free reign with the chart. I doubt that the lightning bolts represent everything you guys are trying to say they do, and I've seen no real evidence from the books for your claims. And Brandon has said not every Shard has a number, color, or any of those other things, and I just don't buy that the color of the moons, which aren't even apart of Roshar, have such a great effect on Roshar (besides tides, rotation, etc.)

I think that I've read all of the WoB's about the voidbinding chart, and it seems to me that Brandon is mostly qualifying that the border of the Voidbinding chart isn't significant, particularly the Woman that appears in the border. If you have any links to interviews/blog posts where Brandon talks about the voidbinding chart I would love to see them!

Spoiler

WoB 1:

Quote

Narkac

Who is the woman on the "Voidbringer Chart"?

Brandon Sanderson

Isaac did the art. It is just a pattern. She's no character in particular

WoB 2:

Quote

Argent

I was talking with someone about the woman on The Way of Kings endsheet, and I wondered about her identity - could you reveal whether she is supposed to depict a someone/something specific, or is it just a somewhat generic image of a woman?

Brandon Sanderson

The woman on the border of the maps isn't meant to be anyone specific, I don't believe. I've never asked Isaac about it, actually.

 

I'm a technical illustrator, I know that color is used particularly in thinks like the voidbinding chart a means of signifying some relationship. There was obvious forethought/intent behind the coloration of the lightning bolt connections. Also the fact that the connections are lightning bolts is significant because the Voidspren we have seen onscreen zip around like bolts of yellow lightning (in the first Venli Interlude especially). I think that the color is keyed to represent different sources of Investiture, and I believe it shows that there are 4 different types of investiture that are used for the orders of Voidbinding. We have a long time until the next SLA book comes out, I think it makes sense to scrutinize this chart and create reasoned conjectures about what the color, connections and overall makeup of the chart is showing, and I am looking forward to what other Sharders come up with in terms of explanations for these relationships.

As far as the color for the shards, I do think there is some signifigance on Roshar at least, to color. I think part of Brandon's caution about having people ascribe to much significance to color is that he doesn't want people to make false correlations. Like he does want people to think that Sadeas troops are of Cultivation because they are wearing green uniforms. But the fact that Lifespren are green, the Nightwatcher is green and Cultivation spren seen in shadesmar appear to made of coiled green vines and this seems significant to me. I know Cultivation appears herself to be brown, but the accoutrements of Investiture I believe are the things that show the color bias of the shard (Like Odium's yellow gold scepter and his yellow gold voidspren). But I'm ok agreeing to disagree on this point too.

18 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine I just don't think Shards can use their magic systems directly. Magic systems result as an interaction between a planet and a Shard's Investiture, and, unless a Shard Invests with the intent to make a magic system, usually happen as a side effect of other things. 

In the OP I was makiing a case for the fact that Adonalsium had set up Roshar prior to his being shattered, and that the magical framework was set up before Honor, Cultivation and Odium began to Invest Roshar. Their was a pre-existing magical ecosystem that Cultivation and Honor inherited, and I believe that the intents of their shards made certain portions of the pre-existing magical system come under the aegis of their investiture (because their intents were aligned with the pre-existing magic (like spren being largely Cultivation's Investiture, especially the natural Spren). Roshar is not like Scadrial, scadrial was created out of whole cloth by Ruin and preservation (the planet, the people, the fuana, etc). Honor and Cultivation came to a planet that had Highstorms, Spren, Listeners with gemhearts, great shells with gemheartss, and an ecosystem that had to be magically sustained (the distribution of Crem, which Brandon has said is similar to God poop). These were pre-existant and the elements of this pre-existant system that were inline with Honor and Cultivation's intents were Invested by them.

 

18 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

I also don't like the idea that the Fused are converting their gemhearts into voidlight (also don't like the term violet light, because it just adds an unnecessary complexity to something that's already pretty complex) because the Singer gemhearts are described as very small, so they would very quickly get used up and then the Fused would die randomly, which we haven't seen happen. Also, one of the epigraphs said that BAM was fueling them with voidlight directly, so I take that as confirmation that Voidlight is indeed the right term and that the Fused can't be converting gemhearts because what would be the point of their connection to BAM then?

Part bolded above I can agree to, I'll stop calling it violet light investiture and call it voidlight again, but I still don't believe that it's Investiture from Odium.

The other part about voidlight being created by the transformation of gemhearts (stored physically manifest investiture) to voidlight (kinetic useable investiture) is totally speculation, something to think about but by no means certain. I think it's an interesting idea and would explain the seemingly limitless amount of voidlisht that the Fused use, but it's just speculation. The Fact that BAM can fuel the Fused with voidlight doesn't necessarily preclude the fact that in the absence of BAM the Fused could have a different means of obtaining voidlight.

This whole topic is on the level of reasoned surmise, totally conjecture. I think that we don't have enough information for anything other than speculative theories about voidbinding at this point, but I appreciate your posts a lot @StrikerEZ, you bring up a lot of good points that are important to think about.

 

18 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Remember that Nergaoul himself is red, while the other Unmade are all described as black(Ashertmarn - black heart. Re-Shephir - black tar. Yelig-Nar - black smoke. Sja-Anat - black shadow). Logically, the point of corruption is there, rather than in those he influences.

However, those possessed by Yelig-Nar have red eyes, so the point of corruption should be there.

The Unmade are splinters of Odium, but they have different powers and are able to inlfuence/affect different things. We have lots of examples of humans being influenced by the thrill without their eyes turning red. The two points in the SLA where we see humans eyes turn red under the influence of the thrill are when Dalinar the beast is walking towards the rift to burn it all down and when Sadeas' troops have spren bonded to them while being prepared for this by being under the influence of the Thrill. The first case seems to me to be a matter of Dalinar temporarily letting the thrill into his soul (like a semi-bonded state) and the second case seems to be an Odiuos hack, insertion of spren into the prepared void in Sadeas's troops' souls that allows them to be controlled somewhat (it's obviously not complete control because they are just as happy hacking apart lightwoven troops as they are attacking the defenders of Thaylen city).

Re-Shephir is an active PR monster that kills (kind of like a leashed hound that Odium can unleash on his foes, like in the Vision from the Stormfather that Dalinar takes all of the rulers of Roshar into), so there is no influence/control being exerted over another being, hence no red eyes.

With Sja-Anat we know that under the influence of her corruption the form and the color of the spren thus corrupted are altered, but we haven't seen anyone on screen that we know for certain has been corrupted by her, but I doubt that this type of corruption would result in red eyes (pretty hard to have a corrupted spy do any secret infiltrations if they have glowing red eyes).

Yelig-Nar is obviously a case of a serious biological hack going on with a gemheart fusing with human, and it makes sense that this level of a hack would cause the host's eyes to glow red. The scene where Kal is fighting Amaram and you get a view of Amaram's ruined chest (just a hollow rib cage with viscera connecting to the gemheart) I felt bad for Amaram. Power, yes, but at what cost?

19 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Make assumptions regarding this "hint" we apparently got.

Quote

dragonssleepinfire

After Eshonai bonds the storm spren, she starts hearing this screaming voice in her head. Is that her voice?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, um… It is a combination of her voice and something that is happening with Roshar, and at the end of the next book you’ll get a big clue.

So @The One Who Connects what exactly do you think this hint is saying? That her soul has been displaced by the bonded Stormfrom spren and is currently in Braize being tortured?? I can't seem to get any other interpretation out of this somewhat cryptic WoB.

 

19 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

think the voice Venli hears in her failed Fused transformation was Odium himself. As we see later in the book, Odium can visit her during the Everstorm's passing. Plus, she was handpicked for her role with envoyform, so it wouldn't be that big of a shocker that the voice she heard was Odium telling the Fused to go away because he had plans for Venli. Plus, why would a Fused listen to anything telling it to stop, other than BAM or Odium himself?

This totally makes sense, the ancient paternal voice is the soothing voice that Odium uses a lot. Nice catch on that one!

[StrikerEZ he/him]

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine Oh, I guess I was wrong about the Voidbinding chart in that case. I think we'll just have to disagree about what those colors mean. I just don't think there are specific relationships to Shards for any of the natural Investiture-based phenomena on Roshar (i.e. gemhearts, spren bonding, Singers). 

As for Scadrial, yes, that was a Shard-created planet and is a bit of a specialist case. But when Shards Invest in a planet, their magic is shaped by the planet itself. So, when Honor and Cultivation (and possibly Odium) Invested in Roshar, their magic(s) took on qualities of the planet (surges and spren). 

As for the Fused and voidlight, they were fueled directly by Odium even before BAM figured out how to fuel the Singers during the False Desolation. It would be interesting if the Fused can convert their gemhearts into voidlight (which might explain why Chiri-Chiri was able to drain that one Fused), but I think it's more likely that they only get directly fueled with voidlight. What would be the point in having an extra reserve if Odium/BAM can directly fuel them anywhere?

And you're welcome. I'm not totally against your theories (though it may come off that way sometimes-whoops ), I just like arguing against theories in the hope that everyone will be able to reach a common theory. Oftentimes, I end up arguing myself to the other side of the argument or just confuse myself to the point I can't argue anymore lol.

 

[Wit Beyond Measure]

2 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

I'm a technical illustrator, I know that color is used particularly in thinks like the voidbinding chart a means of signifying some relationship. There was obvious forethought/intent behind the coloration of the lightning bolt connections. Also the fact that the connections are lightning bolts is significant because the Voidspren we have seen onscreen zip around like bolts of yellow lightning (in the first Venli Interlude especially).

You're a technical illustrator!  Oh, of course you are.  I was jelly of your mad graphics skills, I must say, but now those skills make so much sense.

I'm not able to find "yellow lightning."  I see 17 matches for "red lightning" in WoR, first referring the the scary Voidspren like "red lightning" that Syl keeps foretelling and then foretelling the Everstorm of "red lightning," which brings the souls (spren) of the Fused in at least several instances.  There were 13 matches for "red lightning" in OB, again mostly with the Everstorm.

I was able to find one instance describing yellow lightning.  Kal and Szeth are mostly in the Highstorm at the end of WoR when the Everstorm and Highstorm collide, so perhaps this is why:

Quote

Nevertheless, the highstorms were the source of Stormlight— and being in here energized Kaladin. His reserves of Stormlight burst alight, as they obviously did for Szeth. The assassin suddenly reappeared as a stark white explosion that zoomed through the maelstrom toward the plateaus.

Kaladin growled, Lashing himself after Szeth. Lightning of a dozen colors flashed around him, red, violet, white, yellow.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (The Stormlight Archive, Book 2) (p. 1038). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

In WoK, the only color associated with lightning would be when lightning is described as white teeth in the night, though I could see how natural lightning would be seen as white or light blue or light yellow (the Flash).

In the first Venli interlude, I-3, Ulim is said to be lightning several times though the color isn't specified.  

In the second Venli interlude, I-6, my Kindle version mentions "bright red lightning" from the Everstorm.

Now, I have noticed that different versions do sometimes say different things, especially when I'm both listening to the Audible and reading the Kindle versions at the same time.  And even if we only see yellow lightning once, that's not to say the yellow lightning wasn't intentional and foreshadowing.

Edited December 30, 2017 by Wit Beyond Measure

[StrikerEZ he/him]

Oh, I just remembered something that I wanted to talk about awhile ago and forgot about. 

(Sorry if this is in the wrong thread, I can't remember which thread I wanted to post this in)

I don't think the Fused are a combination of a spren and the Cognitive Shadow of a Singer. I think they are only the CS of a Singer with Investiture from Odium granting them powers and Investing their soul so that they persist after death. The reason some would call them spren is the same reason Brandon has said Kelsier is technically a spren-they're beings that have been kept alive because their souls are permeated with Investiture, and all Rosharans call Investiture beings/things spren basically. Heck, Brandon has said they would call Adonalsium a spren. 

[Wit Beyond Measure]

10 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

Oh, I just remembered something that I wanted to talk about awhile ago and forgot about. 

(Sorry if this is in the wrong thread, I can't remember which thread I wanted to post this in)

I don't think the Fused are a combination of a spren and the Cognitive Shadow of a Singer. I think they are only the CS of a Singer with Investiture from Odium granting them powers and Investing their soul so that they persist after death. The reason some would call them spren is the same reason Brandon has said Kelsier is technically a spren-they're beings that have been kept alive because their souls are permeated with Investiture, and all Rosharans call Investiture beings/things spren basically. Heck, Brandon has said they would call Adonalsium a spren. 

Yes, I said something similar somewhere the other day, that Fused were the souls/spirits of the ancient Listeners fused with corrupted (red) spren.

Back to the search for yellow lightning, I did find a few instances of "yellow spren," where I am beginning to think all spren can take on the form of lightning.

Quote

“If you use a fabrial,” Yokska said, “of any sort—from spanreed, to warmer, to painrial—you’ll draw them. Screaming yellow spren that ride the wind like streaks of terrible light. They shout and swirl about you. That then usually brings the creatures from the sky, the ones with the loose clothing and long spears. They seize the fabrial, and sometimes kill the one trying to use it.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 624). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Ulim is red but the envoy-like spren leading Kal and the band of Alethi parshmen are following was yellow.  So there definitely appear to be yellow voidspren and red voidspren.  And perhaps the violet lightning strikes (from the quote above) denote violet voidspren we've yet to see or just simply Voidlight, like the white lightning appears to represent Stormlight.

Edited December 30, 2017 by Wit Beyond Measure

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

25 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

I'm not able to find "yellow lightning."  I see 17 matches for "red lightning" in WoR, first referring the the scary Voidspren like "red lightning" that Syl keeps foretelling and then foretelling the Everstorm of "red lightning," which brings the souls (spren) of the Fused in at least several instances.  There were 13 matches for "red lightning" in OB, again mostly with the Everstorm.

I was able to find one instance describing yellow lightning.  Kal and Szeth are mostly in the Highstorm at the end of WoR when the Everstorm and Highstorm collide, so perhaps this is why:

Quote

Nevertheless, the highstorms were the source of Stormlight— and being in here energized Kaladin. His reserves of Stormlight burst alight, as they obviously did for Szeth. The assassin suddenly reappeared as a stark white explosion that zoomed through the maelstrom toward the plateaus.

Kaladin growled, Lashing himself after Szeth. Lightning of a dozen colors flashed around him, red, violet, white, yellow.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (The Stormlight Archive, Book 2) (p. 1038). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

In WoK, the only color associated with lightning would be when lightning is described as white teeth in the night, though I could see how natural lightning would be seen as white or light blue or light yellow (the Flash).

In the first Venli interlude, I-3, Ulim is said to be lightning several times though the color isn't specified.  

Thanks a bunch for looking this up, really appreciate it!

So I looked at the Venli interlude and it turns out that Ulim is red! What the heck? I just assumed since this was a voidspren it would be yellow, like the ones seen by Kaladin shepherding the recently awakened parshmen, I didn't notice this one very subtle reference to Ulim's color:

Quote

"Oh, but it does," Ulim said, his red figure electrifying.

Later on Ulim "..(zips) to the wall as a tiny streak of lightning", before I looked this up I saw this in my minds eye as a yellow streak of lightning. Always good to check the source material.

I'm not quite sure what to make of the fact that one of the most involved voidspren helping Venli is red colored and moves like lightning, this definitely seems to show that @StrikerEZ is correct to not base speculative theory purely on color associations. More to think about.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

9 minutes ago, Wit Beyond Measure said:

Back to the search for yellow lightning, I did find a few instances of "yellow spren," where I am beginning to think all spren can take on the form of lightning.

Quote

“If you use a fabrial,” Yokska said, “of any sort—from spanreed, to warmer, to painrial—you’ll draw them. Screaming yellow spren that ride the wind like streaks of terrible light. They shout and swirl about you. That then usually brings the creatures from the sky, the ones with the loose clothing and long spears. They seize the fabrial, and sometimes kill the one trying to use it.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 624). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Ulim is red but the envoy-like spren leading Kal and the band of Alethi parshmen are following was yellow.  So there definitely appear to be yellow voidspren and red voidspren.  And perhaps the violet lightning strikes (from the quote above) denote violet voidspren we've yet to see or just simply Voidlight, like the white lightning appears to represent Stormlight.

Thanks again @Wit Beyond Measure for looking these up, I knew I got the impression that there were yellow voidspren that moved like lightning.

This is only book three out of 10, Brandon has to keep some cards close to his chest, I think that we have very little actual information to go in in regards to voidbinding, maybe the coloration of the voidspren is similar to the coloration of the KRs order spren, with yellow and violet voidspren being associated with the 2 god surges of Voidbinding (while blue and green spren are associated with the 2 god surges of Progression and Adhesion).

@Herald Of Justice mentions in his thread about Spiritual Progression that Brandon has said that Adhesion and Progression are the two god surges, so wouldn't that be rad if this was flipped for the Voidbinding god surges. That would make one voidbinding god surges Illumination (sounds like a good canidate for odious future sight) and the other god surge gravitation. And maybe, due to the fact that this is the god surge the manifestation of the surge would be different, maybe the Flying Fused can use Physical gravitation instead of Spiritual Gravitation (like Windrunners and Skybreakers do). Maybe this requires less investiture to maintain (mechanics of this effeciency unknown, but will think more ont this), that's why they are able to float seemingly without consuming investiture.

Interesting, interesting.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

3 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

So @The One Who Connects what exactly do you think this hint is saying?

How should I know? I'm not the one who's read the book.

3 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

We have lots of examples of humans being influenced by the thrill without their eyes turning red.

Ah, so that's what you're getting at. That's what I get for responding to someone and not rereading what they were responding to. Your thoughts make some sense, although I'm a tad hesitant on the Dalinar case. (Mostly because of our new perspective on the concept of Unmade Bonding courtesy of Yelig-Nar)

2 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Adhesion and Progression are the two god surges,

Not this again...

Quote

Argent
The "God Surges" you mentioned recently, are they a part of the Way of Kings frontsheet?

Brandon Sanderson
All I said regarding this was to tell a fan that it was possible to make an analogy between the god metals on Scadrial and certain powers on Roshar. However, these are not a codified part of the magic system.

[Wit Beyond Measure]

3 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Quote

dragonssleepinfire

After Eshonai bonds the storm spren, she starts hearing this screaming voice in her head. Is that her voice?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, um… It is a combination of her voice and something that is happening with Roshar, and at the end of the next book you’ll get a big clue.

So @The One Who Connects what exactly do you think this hint is saying? That her soul has been displaced by the bonded Stormfrom spren and is currently in Braize being tortured?? I can't seem to get any other interpretation out of this somewhat cryptic WoB.

I missed this comment, but I was so confused by Brandon's "hint," too.  My best guess is that this is Eshonai's soul crying out because she is being suppressed by - or held captive by - the stormspren.  I don't think stormspren displace the soul completely, though, because it seems only the Fused do that.  Perhaps he's talking about when Timbre holds Venli's Fused spren captive?  But that doesn't directly tell us whose voice is screaming inside Eshonai since I don't think her warform spren is being held captive.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

7 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

As for the Fused and voidlight, they were fueled directly by Odium even before BAM figured out how to fuel the Singers during the False Desolation. It would be interesting if the Fused can convert their gemhearts into voidlight (which might explain why Chiri-Chiri was able to drain that one Fused), but I think it's more likely that they only get directly fueled with voidlight. What would be the point in having an extra reserve if Odium/BAM can directly fuel them anywhere?

Well, BAM might only have a proximal ability to provide voidlight, and Odium seems wary of manifesting directly on Roshar, because as the SF explains to Dalinar in OB Chapter 16, Wrapped Three Times:

Quote

To fight directly might coax out forces that could hurt him, as he has been hurt before. Those scars do not heal.

So with Odium hesitant to intervene directly, and BAM possibly imprisoned in a perfect gem, having a backup source of Voidlight would be a useful thing to have. Even if BAM were released, BAM probably can only provide voidlight to

Ok, so I just saw this WoB that mentions that Gemhearts are in fact Investiture:

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Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

So you've previously described gemhearts as Investiture leaking into the Physical Realm in a similar kind of process to atium. Now atium had a way of-- the Investiture used in the creation of it-- of returning back to the kind of background pool of Investiture on Scadrial. Is there a way of the Investiture used in the creation of gemhearts to return to the Roshar Investiture pool?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

There is? Have we had any hints of it at all?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

So Gemhearts are physically manifest Investiture. To convert this physically manifest investiture into kinetic investiture (voidlight) would probably still require some other form of Investiture (possibly provided by the everstorm) but it might only require a small initial spark of this catalyst Investiture to trigger a slow continual conversion, but the fact that gemhearts are coalesced investiture makes this seem more plausible. This all in the realm of Tinfoil hat speculation, but it is interesting to think about.

[Lord Mistborn Bondbreaker he/him]

15 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

@Herald Of Justice mentions in his thread about Spiritual Progression that Brandon has said that Adhesion and Progression are the two god surges

No, I said that Sanderson said they were not, but how they could be considered as such, 

[ScavellTane]

I would like to contest that the Highstorms pre-Shattering provided Light.

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Narkac

Where does the Stormlight in highstorms come from? Is there like a "rain cycle", but for the Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormlight in the highstorm is transferred from the Spiritual realm through the Stormfather into the highstorm.

 

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DURING THESE DAYS, HONOR STILL LIVED. I WAS NOT YET FULLY MYSELF. MORE OF A STORM. LESS INTERESTED IN MEN. HIS DEATH CHANGED ME. MY MEMORY OF THAT TIME IS DIFFICULT TO EXPLAIN. BUT IF YOU WOULD SEE PARSHMEN, YOU NEED BUT LOOK ACROSS THAT FIELD

 

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A direct conduit to the Spiritual Realm, the Stormfather said. You renew spheres, Dalinar? “We are Connected.” I was bonded to men before. This never happened then.

I'm not sure how to explain this, but I don't think the Stormfather, before his merging with Honor, could renew spheres.

I know I'm nitpicking here but the 'Stormfather' as he is now, is a post-Recreance thing. I don't that there is an instance in the visions of the past that there was anyone (non-Radiant) using gemstones as a source of light. If Stormlight was readily available back then as it is now should we not see some hint of them in the visions. ( If someone finds otherwise then kick me )

Then there's that instance of Dalinar taking over the female Radiant where she had gemstones with her. Urithiru was probably the only place where stormlight/gemstone use was common because they have ready access to them. 

The point is, I don't think the Ancient Radiants got their stormlight from an external source. I think they drew it directly through their bond. Kind of the same way the Fused get their voidlight?

Sheesh, just had some major de-javu. 

Edited August 4, 2018 by ScavellTane

[Calderis he/him]

Stormlight in gems is not new... 

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Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There was a point when the Heralds didn't need to draw Stormlight from gems, although the Stormlight-in-gems predates Honor's arrival.

There was a following conversation about this topic, about how a lot of the elements were there before Honor arrived, but he co-opted them. So, Stormlight were there, but there are big differences now.

Footnote: Unspecified question by Pagerunner.
source

 

[Magpro]

On ‎29‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 6:53 PM, MonsterMetroid said:

It would also make sense why Odium would kill ambition first then come to a Storming planet with two shards!!! he knew he could coopt and hack a portion of the magic system that was no longer being actively directed by a vessel.

I really like this theory

[Diomedes]

I found a little quote that seems to confirm this theory: 

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soldiers (...) eyes glowing with the light of corrupted Investiture. OB. p. 1220 

That is an observation by the Herald Ash, who has a lot more first-hand information on Odium and ancient stuff, because she has been around for millenia since the Oathpact.

"Corrupted" could mean that Odium took the original magic voidbinding system and hacked/corrupted  it to his own ends.