[OB] Who will be Odium's champion?

[BraidedRose]

@TheWarriorPoet thanks, I do remember something about that but didn’t remember exactly what was said. So you might be right that Odium could remove the effects, at least Dalinar thinks he can.

@Greywatch I like what you said about Adolin teetering on the edge of something. I think that’s a good way of putting it because it implies it could go either way which is the sense I get as well.

Edited December 27, 2017 by BraidedRose

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, BraidedRose said:

Not surprised the idea of Adolin as OC brings up a lot of strong opinions! 

This discussion has been happening for the last four years: I never believed in it, I still do not believe in it. Adolin as Odium's Champion is one of those theories which exist mostly because his character has not yet taken up a "task" or a "function" into the narrative. Arguing he would make a twist towards evil merely because he is the only "good guy" not being a "Radiant" is making the unpredictable painfully predictable as, of course, the "nice guy" will fall as no one can be this "nice" and isn't it what "nice guys" always do anyway?

I am not saying these reasons are your personal reasons to root for it, but in the end, these discussions always come down to the same points. Adolin is not a Radiant. Adolin turning evil would cause a "reaction" within the main cast. As such, Adolin becoming Odium's Champion is the best possible course of action.

I just disagree. I disagree because every single one of those theories basically remove Adolin's character from its agency. They ignore the fact the character we have been reading for three books would never turn on his family nor his loved one: nothing would ever make him turn traitor. Even when his father is dead plain wrong about his decision making, Adolin still supports him, hence to think Adolin would fall for Odium's manipulations is really yearning for his character to be another character entirely.

Of course, I agree Adolin in OB was a tad bland, but he is not an empty shelf either: he is loyal, dutiful, responsible. His weaknesses are his inability to put blame onto others, to actively try to work harder when the fault isn't his, his lack of second guessing his father and self-confidence. Nothing which could make him become a monster.

1 hour ago, BraidedRose said:

Let me preface my post with saying that I don't necessarily want Adolin to become OC and I am in no way convinced that he will be but I don't think the possibility has been ruled out by what we have seen so far. I like Adolin and as he is now I think he is a goodhearted character. The stuff about sign of nine is just an interesting bit of foreshadowing but obviously in no way proves anything by itself and could be pointing to something else entirely. But I don't believe BS just included it as a random, meaningless detail. 

Not every single sentence written in the book will be foreshadowing and having Adolin's birth date indicate anything with respect to his character is basically removing him from all agency. What is the purpose of Adolin growing or making a few given decisions if, anyway, he is predestined to become Odium's Champion out of being born within the wrong month of the year?

I sincerely do not believe Brandon would use something as cheap as a character's birth date as foreshadowing for a given evil path: not only this is a poor plot twist, it is entirely unsatisfying on a narrative point of view. Of course, Brandon doesn't always write satisfying outcome for his character, but I would be extraordinarily surprised this one tip bit means anything.

1 hour ago, BraidedRose said:

From what we have seen in OB, yes, one can't be forced into being OC. On the other hand, Dalinar had to resist very hard once he was chosen, it wasn't as simple as just saying no. I would imagine most other characters who were good by nature and not already inclined to fight for Odium would have a similar struggle and maybe another wouldn't have the strength that Dalinar did in that moment. I think what you said about someone who doesn't want to take responsibility for his own feelings and actions being the type to succumb is likely. Odium showed us that a tool he uses is to take someone's pain from them and there are probably a lot of well intentioned characters who might give in to that given the right motivation. Reading that chapter in OB, I definitely thought it was possible that Dalinar might give in and become OC at that point. Dalinar as we now know has some heinous things in his past, far more than Adolin as far as we know (murdering Sadeas really can't compare) but at this point he is still a character with the best of intentions and far stronger than most I would guess. That tells me that it is possible for someone we don't expect, someone who would not go out of their way to serve Odium to still end up as OC. 

Dalinar had been chosen as Odium's Champion for a long time: he has been groomed for it since his youth. All Odium had to do was to remind him of the beast he was, to call upon the beast, to seduce it and to give him an easy way out of the guilt he bore towards his own self. Odium offered Dalinar what he yearned: forgiveness by taking away all of his pain. This wasn't the work of a few minutes of interaction, this was the work of decades of pruning Dalinar, shaping him into the monster he was supposed to become. 

The Dalinar we saw, during the flashback, was exactly what Odium is looking for a: a killer, a beast, a man with no remorse able to torch an entire town just to get personal revenge. Of course, Dalinar had been influenced, pushed farther than he would have gone, but the fact remains Dalinar had been under Odium's thumb for a long time.

The same is not true of Adolin. Adolin is not a beast. He would never torch a town to satisfy his personal revenge. He has empathy and personal inhibitions his father just never had: he isn't the kind of individual Odium is looking for. Even if he managed to manipulate Adolin into succumbing to his offers, it would be pointless: Adolin would never become is general. For one, Adolin doesn't even believe he is one. For second, he would never go as far as Odium wants him to go.

No. Odium needs someone able to the vilest act in the name of personal revenge and, so far, the only character we have seen, apart from Dalinar, to have this ability is Moash.

Yearning for the unpredictable is one thing, yearning for the practically impossible is another thing: not every single living human bodies have the capacity to become Odium's Champion. Adolin just doesn't have it: if he had, he would yearn for the battlefield like his father, he would be mindless of the human cost, he would probably kill his own men in his own battle fury only to blame it on them for having moved too close. Hence, just because he is the one "good guy" not being a "Radiant" still does not make Adolin a candidate.

1 hour ago, BraidedRose said:

Now Adolin at this exact moment in the story probably doesn't have nearly enough reason to give in to Odium, but that could still change. To me there are some hints in the story that his marriage to Shallan may be doomed for disaster and that he hasn't really dealt with Sadeas' murder, etc. which suggest that he may unfortunately have a lot of pain in his future. I personally expect that reading a lot of pain for Adolin would be devastating (if my unexpected grief at Elhokar's death is any indication BS knows how to catch me off guard and make me cry even for a character I didn't care about that much). Reading Adolin go dark would also be devastating. In a lot of ways I hope the pain I expect for Adolin is what helps him revive Maya and become an Edgedancer, I'm sure I would enjoy reading that more, but it may be instead what causes him to go dark. Or maybe both could occur, one doesn't rule out the other. 

No, this is highly unlikely to change because people do not fundamentally change. People do not make 180 turn onto their personalities: people remain relatively the same, with the same strengths and weaknesses. What people learn is how to use both of them in the most efficient way, but the idea Adolin might change his inner personality because of "outside events" is not holding the road. 

As I said, he does not have the right "qualities" to be an interesting Champion for Odium: he is not going to develop them because there is some possibility there might be hardship within his relationship with Shallan. I would also severely dispute the "doomed for disaster" argument: some readers have recently liked to find every single sentence they could find in order to make it say Adolin/Shallan were such a bad match they would irrevocably hit a wall. Some other readers are just not giving those arguments anything more than a side glance because they don't feel there is much of an argument to have had. Even if it were to happen, Adolin would still not spontaneously start to develop the right qualities to become Odium's Champion.

Why?

Because when Adolin is in a bad spot, what does he do? He works harder. If he feels rejected, what does he do? He moves away. Does it hurt? Probably, but Adolin is not the topic of the story, hence we never read what goes on in his head. He is however not going to have a life-crisis over his marriage with Shallan or any other aspects of his life. Adolin is just not the kind of individual which has life crisis: he is just going to keep on doing what he has been doing.

[Subvisual Haze]

On 12/26/2017 at 9:54 AM, Varion said:

This makes clear that Odium cannot choose another champion. Dalinar ensured that Odium's chosen champion (Dalinar) never actually manifested, and so Odium is now compelled to fight as his own champion. 

Which means that all of this speculation about who might be the (next) champion is entirely irrelevant.

Agree with this 100%.  The Odium's Champion plot line is resolved at this point, and accomplished its intended function.  Odium chose Dalinar as his champion, Dalinar resisted Odium, and now Odium can no longer directly lead his armies on Roshar lest he trigger a Contest of Champions that he would lose (as his chosen champion doesn't even support him).  Now Odium needs to work through agents instead of directly to accomplish his goals.

[Guest]

Just now, Subvisual Haze said:

Agree with this 100%.  The Odium's Champion plot line is resolved at this point, and accomplished its intended function.  Odium chose Dalinar as his champion, Dalinar resisted Odium, and now Odium can no longer directly lead his armies on Roshar lest he trigger a Contest of Champions that he would lose (as his chosen champion doesn't even support him).  Now Odium needs to work through agents instead of directly to accomplish his goals.

Is it really over? Dalinar refused, but was he ever "officially the Champion" and had he beaten himself, hence the Champion, then wouldn't it mean the side of Honor has won?

I am not personally convinced it is over: I am thinking Odium's first choice did not work out. Now he is looking for a replacement.

[Subvisual Haze]

3 minutes ago, maxal said:

Is it really over? Dalinar refused, but was he ever "officially the Champion" and had he beaten himself, hence the Champion, then wouldn't it mean the side of Honor has won?

I am not personally convinced it is over: I am thinking Odium's first choice did not work out. Now he is looking for a replacement.

Why would he have left the field of battle then, unless to avoid the contest?  Did he want to look like a clown to the observing Singer troops?

[Greywatch she/her]

On 12/26/2017 at 9:54 AM, Varion said:

Furthermore, as Melovespie pointed out, we need to question whether Odium will even be able to choose a new Champion. Recall the meeting between Taravangian and Odium at the very end of OB:

This makes clear that Odium cannot choose another champion. Dalinar ensured that Odium's chosen champion (Dalinar) never actually manifested, and so Odium is now compelled to fight as his own champion. 

Which means that all of this speculation about who might be the (next) champion is entirely irrelevant.

Varion, I somehow missed your post - must've been skimming. I had forgotten that this was made explicit, that Odium didn't want to go through with the contest any longer.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Why would he have left the field of battle then, unless to avoid the contest?  Did he want to look like a clown to the observing Singer troops?

He can't have a contest without a Champion. He agreed to the rules, now he has to follow them, but it can't be contest until both sides have chosen their Champions. I think Odium left to seek another Champion, plan A failed, so times for plan B.

[BraidedRose]

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1 hour ago, maxal said:

This discussion has been happening for the last four years: I never believed in it, I still do not believe in it. Adolin as Odium's Champion is one of those theories which exist mostly because his character has not yet taken up a "task" or a "function" into the narrative. Arguing he would make a twist towards evil merely because he is the only "good guy" not being a "Radiant" is making the unpredictable painfully predictable as, of course, the "nice guy" will fall as no one can be this "nice" and isn't it what "nice guys" always do anyway?

I am not saying these reasons are your personal reasons to root for it, but in the end, these discussions always come down to the same points. Adolin is not a Radiant. Adolin turning evil would cause a "reaction" within the main cast. As such, Adolin becoming Odium's Champion is the best possible course of action.

I just disagree. I disagree because every single one of those theories basically remove Adolin's character from its agency. They ignore the fact the character we have been reading for three books would never turn on his family nor his loved one: nothing would ever make him turn traitor. Even when his father is dead plain wrong about his decision making, Adolin still supports him, hence to think Adolin would fall for Odium's manipulations is really yearning for his character to be another character entirely.

Of course, I agree Adolin in OB was a tad bland, but he is not an empty shelf either: he is loyal, dutiful, responsible. His weaknesses are his inability to put blame onto others, to actively try to work harder when the fault isn't his, his lack of second guessing his father and self-confidence. Nothing which could make him become a monster.

Not every single sentence written in the book will be foreshadowing and having Adolin's birth date indicate anything with respect to his character is basically removing him from all agency. What is the purpose of Adolin growing or making a few given decisions if, anyway, he is predestined to become Odium's Champion out of being born within the wrong month of the year?

I sincerely do not believe Brandon would use something as cheap as a character's birth date as foreshadowing for a given evil path: not only this is a poor plot twist, it is entirely unsatisfying on a narrative point of view. Of course, Brandon doesn't always write satisfying outcome for his character, but I would be extraordinarily surprised this one tip bit means anything.

Dalinar had been chosen as Odium's Champion for a long time: he has been groomed for it since his youth. All Odium had to do was to remind him of the beast he was, to call upon the beast, to seduce it and to give him an easy way out of the guilt he bore towards his own self. Odium offered Dalinar what he yearned: forgiveness by taking away all of his pain. This wasn't the work of a few minutes of interaction, this was the work of decades of pruning Dalinar, shaping him into the monster he was supposed to become. 

The Dalinar we saw, during the flashback, was exactly what Odium is looking for a: a killer, a beast, a man with no remorse able to torch an entire town just to get personal revenge. Of course, Dalinar had been influenced, pushed farther than he would have gone, but the fact remains Dalinar had been under Odium's thumb for a long time.

The same is not true of Adolin. Adolin is not a beast. He would never torch a town to satisfy his personal revenge. He has empathy and personal inhibitions his father just never had: he isn't the kind of individual Odium is looking for. Even if he managed to manipulate Adolin into succumbing to his offers, it would be pointless: Adolin would never become is general. For one, Adolin doesn't even believe he is one. For second, he would never go as far as Odium wants him to go.

No. Odium needs someone able to the vilest act in the name of personal revenge and, so far, the only character we have seen, apart from Dalinar, to have this ability is Moash.

Yearning for the unpredictable is one thing, yearning for the practically impossible is another thing: not every single living human bodies have the capacity to become Odium's Champion. Adolin just doesn't have it: if he had, he would yearn for the battlefield like his father, he would be mindless of the human cost, he would probably kill his own men in his own battle fury only to blame it on them for having moved too close. Hence, just because he is the one "good guy" not being a "Radiant" still does not make Adolin a candidate.

No, this is highly unlikely to change because people do not fundamentally change. People do not make 180 turn onto their personalities: people remain relatively the same, with the same strengths and weaknesses. What people learn is how to use both of them in the most efficient way, but the idea Adolin might change his inner personality because of "outside events" is not holding the road. 

As I said, he does not have the right "qualities" to be an interesting Champion for Odium: he is not going to develop them because there is some possibility there might be hardship within his relationship with Shallan. I would also severely dispute the "doomed for disaster" argument: some readers have recently liked to find every single sentence they could find in order to make it say Adolin/Shallan were such a bad match they would irrevocably hit a wall. Some other readers are just not giving those arguments anything more than a side glance because they don't feel there is much of an argument to have had. Even if it were to happen, Adolin would still not spontaneously start to develop the right qualities to become Odium's Champion.

Why?

Because when Adolin is in a bad spot, what does he do? He works harder. If he feels rejected, what does he do? He moves away. Does it hurt? Probably, but Adolin is not the topic of the story, hence we never read what goes on in his head. He is however not going to have a life-crisis over his marriage with Shallan or any other aspects of his life. Adolin is just not the kind of individual which has life crisis: he is just going to keep on doing what he has been doing.

 

So partially I think you are arguing against some points that I haven't and wouldn't actually make myself, but that aside I will try to respond to clarify some of my points. Bottom line I think is that you just don't believe based on what we've seen that Adolin could become OC, and that's fine, I'm definitely not trying to convince you that it is possible. I happen to think it is still one interesting possibility among others. Maybe the difference partially comes down to each of our assumptions about what OC must be. You suspect that OC must be a monster prior to becoming OC, I'm not sure this is true (but neither of us knows for sure at this point). Would you consider Dalinar to be a monster at the point Odium is trying to convince him to become his champion? I would argue that he was a monster prior to Cultivation's pruning but that he is far from a monster now. And I don't think the reason he didn't become OC is because he is not a monster, I think he could have in that moment but chose under extreme duress to defy him. Based on that I suspect a similar person in a similar circumstance could have chosen to give in to Odium, which opens up a lot more possibilities for who it could be, if indeed Odium will get to choose another after Dalinar's refusal. 

I agree that Odium was grooming Dalinar for a long time and if he gets to choose another, it may take a lot of work on whoever that is as well, it won't be simply applying pressure for a few minutes on another random person. 

To be clear about the point I made about being born under the sign of nine: I do not at all believe that being born under the sign of nine in any way predisposes Adolin to be influenced by Odium. I just believe that Brandon didn't mention it for no reason, but it could be a different reason. 

About people not making a 180 degree turn or fundamentally changing: partially I agree but not 100%. I would argue in an extreme case people may do a 180 turn (Dalinar with a lot of help for example) but in most cases people grow and evolve along the lines they tend towards. I believe Adolin basically is a good person but parts of him are still unclear to me. I find his viewpoints not very internally focused so I don't feel I understand his character as in depth as I do Kaladin for example. Shallan is another one that is hard to understand for different reasons because she is an unreliable narrator. And again, I'm operating under the assumption that Adolin (or anyone else for that matter) wouldn't necessarily have to do a 180 to become OC but I could be wrong. Either way, if we are going to see someone really unexpected become OC it will have to be justified with a lot of development before we get there, but I trust that BS would do it well if he went in that direction. 

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5 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Why would he have left the field of battle then, unless to avoid the contest?  Did he want to look like a clown to the observing Singer troops?

 

I'm not sure whether I believe the contest of champions is over or not. It seems possible but I still question what would stop Odium from choosing another champion. At the very least I don't believe it is really explicit from what we have read so far. If Odium is now barred from choosing another because his first choice refused him then that needs to be clearer in the narrative going forward. As to why he left the field then, I would argue that at that point in time he didn't have another champion so if he had stayed he would have been drawn in. But if later he chooses another champion that would change. 

[Ailvara]

9 minutes ago, BraidedRose said:

Maybe the difference partially comes down to each of our assumptions about what OC must be. You suspect that OC must be a monster prior to becoming OC, I'm not sure this is true (but neither of us knows for sure at this point).

That's my idea as well. In this case I wouldn't imagine Adolin going down the path of young Dalinar... but I can see still see him going all Darth Vader. A bit of clever manipulation and a desperate situation can make a good man fall without even realizing it before it's too late. And in this comparison unyielding loyalty and caring for his loved ones actually turns out to be a liability. 

Edited December 27, 2017 by Ailvara

[StormingTexan he/him]

I agree with @Varion the champion deal is off the table. 

42 minutes ago, BraidedRose said:

I'm not sure whether I believe the contest of champions is over or not. It seems possible but I still question what would stop Odium from choosing another champion. At the very least I don't believe it is really explicit from what we have read so far. If Odium is now barred from choosing another because his first choice refused him then that needs to be clearer in the narrative going forward.

Odium may be able to "see" that Dalinar would have be the only champion he could pick that he KNEW would win. If Dalinar had become corrupted as Odum's champion would that have ended it right there? My guess is it would have because I cant see Dalinar becoming Odium's champion and then picking a champion of his own. The Storm Father said Odium would not agree to the challenge of champion easily and I think he only did it knowing it was the easy way to free himself by choosing Dalinar. I think Cultivations plan was the one thing Odium couldn't see. I fell like this option is off the table now and Odium will avoid this at all cost because it is not a sure thing anymore. 

Edited December 27, 2017 by StormingTexan

[StrikerEZ he/him]

I think that Odium is still bound to the Contest of Champions. Even though his choice ended up not becoming his Champion, that doesn't mean he still isn't bound. Shards are bound to there words, as we learned in OB, and the Contest has not happened yet, so Odium still needs to choose a Champion, and Dalinar can force him to (somehow) if they meet. That's my take on it, at least. 

As for whether or not Adolin could be the Champion, I basically agree with all the arguments @maxal made in her post. I hate the idea of Adolin going all Darth Vader because I absolutely love the idea of him reviving Maya and becoming a badchull Edgedancer and fighting with the other Radiants. Plus, he just seems too loyal to his friends and family to side with Odium. I could see a way where it would happen if Odium told Adolin he couldn't save his friends and family by becoming Odium's Champion, but I don't think Adolin would do it. 

[Dreamstorm]

I find the debate over whether or not Odium can choose another champion to be far from clear-cut. To break it down:

Did Odium agree to a contest of champions?

- We all seem to agree yes and the text supports this. 

What was the outcome of the contest?

- Option 1: Odium won. I don’t think anyone is arguing this. 

- Option 2: Odium lost. Since there was no fight, this could be a loss through forfeiture (his champion refused to fight.) We don’t know what benefits humanity should get from a victory in the contest (Stormfather told Dalinar it was “time” but that’s not very specific), though perhaps the one-year time skip is the victory benefit? The other potential consequence for Odium post-loss (if one considers him to have lost) is that he may need to work through agents (as suggested by the Diagram) instead of directly. However he appears to Vargo, so it’s not like he’s banished from Roshar. Overall, there wasn’t much gain to humanity if this was an Odium loss so I find it unlikely Odium is considered to have lost the contest. 

- Option 3: The contest never started/is on pause. This seems to be what Vargo via the Diagram thinks at least. From the Diagram’s perspective, the contest is still open and Odium can be forced into the contest at any time, and since Odium doesn’t have another groomed champion this is a very risky proposition which Odium should avoid. Now is the Diagram correct in this assertion? Who knows. But with this option, it does seem like another champion can be chosen since otherwise the possibility of a contest would be closed. 

- Option 4: The contest is null and void because Odium’s selected champion refused to fight for him. I think this is what those who are arguing another champion cannot be selected are primarily advocating? I think this is a logical possibility, but I personally find it a little suspect because (a) this isn’t mentioned in the text anywhere and so seems like if we drop the champion possibility in the next book, it will be difficult for readers to figure out why it was dropped and (b) if Odium didn’t have a suitable champion this gives him an easy out - just choose the guy least likely to support him and the contest is null and void. (b) Seems like a large loophole that removes most of the drama of the situation (Odium can easily avoid losing even if he agrees to the contest), doesn’t align with what Stormfather says about how it will be hard to get Odium to agree to the contest and also wasn’t a possibility presented to the reader (either before or after the contest.)

So, the way I see it, for the selection of another champion to be off the table, you have to believe either option 2 (Odium lost) or option 4 (contest null and void due to champion’s refusal to fight) occurred. Both of these seem a rather Odium-friendly and anti-climatic way of resolving the “Odium’s champion” plot; in one the consequences of Odium’s loss are very minor and in the other Odium can easily wiggle out of the contest, so his acceptance really meant nothing (and doesn’t align with the fact it was supposedly hard to get Odium to agree to a contest in the first place.)

I personally see it as option 3 and the situation right now it like when Adolin chose a duel with Sadeas as his boon but Kaladin’s play for Amaram caused Elhokar to lose the plot; Adolin’s right to the duel was still alive and well but good luck pining Sadeas down to a time and place to get it done. I agree with those (and the Diagram) that say it will be tricky to pin Odium down, but not because the contest is dead, but because it will be hard to find Odium and force him to go through with it. 

Edited December 27, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[BraidedRose]

@Dreamstorm thank you for articulating all of that in more detail than I could! I agree with your analysis and think your conclusion is also the most likely explanation for where things stand now. 

[Cosmé he/him]

13 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I personally see it as option 3 and the situation right now it like when Adolin chose a duel with Sadeas as his boon but Kaladin’s play for Amaram caused Elhokar to lose the plot; Adolin’s right to the duel was still alive and well but good luck pining Sadeas down to a time and place to get it done. I agree with those (and the Diagram) that say it will be tricky to pin Odium down, but not because the contest is dead, but because it will be hard to find Odium and force him to go through with it. 

I agree here, especially with the Adolin/Sadeas analogy. I wouldn’t be surprised at all actually if that subplot was foreshadowing for the “big duel.”

Odium agreed to the contest easily. It’s stated though that, to get Odium to agree to a contest of champions, he must be convinced that he can lose. The Dalinar gang are going to have to back Odium into a corner before he will accept that risk. Right now, he is agreeing to the duel, because that doesn’t commit him to anything concrete, but not the place and time.

You can’t defeat a shard by conventional methods. Especially a shard who is the four-time heavyweight splintering champion of the Comsere. So they’ve got to to force Odium into the duel, with the promise of release from Roshar if he wins. 

Edited December 27, 2017 by Cosmé

[Varion he/him]

@Dreamstorm, that's a pretty good breakdown. However, as the person who initially argued that we won't see a new champion, I need to say that I don't subscribe to option 4. The contest is not null and void, but very much in play, and the reason why Odium can no longer confront Dalinar directly, as explicitly stated in the Taravangian quote.

Of the options you provided, I actually also believe the most likely scenario is Option 3, but I should point out that there are actually a few possibilities here:

- Option 3a: The contest never started/is on pause. The contest is still open and Odium can be forced into the contest at any time, and since Odium doesn’t have another groomed champion this is a very risky proposition which Odium should avoid.

- Option 3b: The contest never started/is on pause. The contest is still open and Odium can be forced into the contest at any time, but Odium realises that Dalinar is already stronger than any champion he could ever put forward, and is therefore avoiding a contest he cannot win.

- Option 3c: The contest never started/is on pause. The contest is still open and Odium can be forced into the contest at any time, and since his chosen champion defied him, Odium must fight in the contest himself, which puts him at risk not only of being defeated in battle, but destroyed outright. While this risk might be low, it is significant enough for him to avoid the contest and rely on his agents.

I'm not sure we have enough information to tell which of these is true at the moment. In my original post I effectively argued for 3c, but I agree that perhaps it is possible that Odium may still be able to groom a champion, and that perhaps that champion may be capable of defeating Dalinar. But Odium was surprised, and perhaps scared by Dalinar's unexpected ascension, and regardless of which of the above scenarios is correct, he now realises that there is a non-zero risk of losing to Dalinar. This is why Odium has made the choice to go back to the longer but safer plan of besieging Roshar with his Unmade, his voidbringers, and his other agents.

That's why I don't think we'll see another champion. 

Edited December 28, 2017 by Varion

[Vissy]

If Odium fought as his own Champion, there would be no risk of defeat. This is a Shard we're talking about, hello? Shards of infinity that can basically blow up the entire planet just to win the contest? The problem is more likely that Odium can't manifest on Roshar directly, or affect it directly as of yet. The Everstorm is his window to Roshar.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Vissy

[Greywatch she/her]

Quote

In visions, Honor had left Dalinar with a task. Vex Odium, convince him that he can lose, and appoint a champion. He will take that chance instead of risking defeat again, as he has suffered so often. This is the best advice I can give you.

“I’ve seen that the enemy is preparing a champion,” Dalinar said. “A dark creature with red eyes and nine shadows. Will Honor’s suggestion work? Can I make Odium agree to a decisive contest between me and that champion?”

Of course Honor’s suggestion would work, the Stormfather said. He spoke it.

“I mean,” Dalinar said, “why would it work? Why would this Odium ever agree to a contest of champions? It seems too momentous a matter to risk on something so small and inferior as the prowess and will of men.”

Your enemy is not a man like you, the Stormfather replied, voice rumbling, thoughtful. Even . . . frightened. He does not age. He feels. He is angry. But this does not change, and his rage does not cool. Epochs can pass, and he will remain the same.

To fight directly might coax out forces that could hurt him, as he has been hurt before. Those scars do not heal. To pick a champion, then lose, will only cost him time. He has that in plenitude. He still will not agree easily, but it is possible he will agree. If presented with the option in the right moment, the right way. Then he will be bound.

“And we win . . .”

Time, the Stormfather said. Which, though dross to him, is the most valuable thing a man can have.

- chapter 16

Odium does not want to fight directly for risk of being defeated, as he has been wounded before.

[Dreamstorm]

@Varion I agree all three of those are possible options, though with 3a and 3b, Odium is running scared with a hammer poised to fall on him. Can he run forever? (Fleet!) In 3c, I agree with @Greywatch that this would likely be more dangerous for Odium; even if he is forced to pick a subpar champion all he stands to lose is time, but I would think if Rayse fights directly, a loss (even if it’s unlikely) could cause Odium to actually shatter or have some other permanent impairment which he fears even more than the loss of time. 

On loss of time being the repercussion for losing the champion fight, this could be a potential way to account for our book 5-6 time skip, though 10-15 years isn’t that much time. I just prefer that to the gruesome MCs forge a new oathpact and go to Braize option. Though it’ll likely be neither!

[Varion he/him]

44 minutes ago, Vissy said:

If Odium fought as his own Champion, there would be no risk of defeat. This is a Shard we're talking about, hello? Shards of infinity that can basically blow up the entire planet just to win the contest? The problem is more likely that Odium can't manifest on Roshar directly, or affect it directly as of yet. The Everstorm is his window to Roshar.

@Greywatch's quote brings up an excellent point that I hadn't thought of:

Quote

To fight directly might coax out forces that could hurt him, as he has been hurt before. Those scars do not heal.

There are risks and costs to fighting directly. My interpretation of this quote is that the "forces that could hurt him" are the other Shards. Perhaps by fighting Dalinar directly, Odium will break some sort of pact or redline that prevents the Shards from attacking humans.

If you think about this more broadly across the Cosmere, I can't think of any instance of a Shard directly 'smiting' any living creature, let alone a human. My original thought was that they were actually incapable of causing physical harm to living beings, perhaps in similar way to Hoid, who cannot harm people physically. If this were true, then it it makes complete sense that Odium would run from a direct confrontation with Dalinar. But in the light of this quote, perhaps it's not an inability to harm to Dalinar, but the greater repercussions from other Shards that Odium fears. 

[Vissy]

4 minutes ago, Varion said:

If you think about this more broadly across the Cosmere, I can't think of any instance of a Shard directly 'smiting' any living creature, let alone a human. My original thought was that they were actually incapable of causing physical harm to living beings, perhaps in similar way to Hoid, who cannot harm people physically. If this were true, then it it makes complete sense that Odium would run from a direct confrontation with Dalinar. But in the light of this quote, perhaps it's not an inability to harm to Dalinar, but the greater repercussions from other Shards that Odium fears. 

The reason is that the only Shards we've seen are either benevolent or obstructed by benevolent shards. Ruin never had full access to Scadrial, otherwise he'd just have blown the whole place up in a second. Odium would do the same, except that he's obstructed by the Oathpact, Cultivation and whatever else there's left of Honor (like the KR and now Dalinar).

Edited December 28, 2017 by Vissy

[Varion he/him]

10 minutes ago, Vissy said:

The reason is that the only Shards we've seen are either benevolent or obstructed by benevolent shards. Ruin never had full access to Scadrial, otherwise he'd just have blown the whole place up in a second. Odium would do the same, except that he's obstructed by the Oathpact, Cultivation and whatever else there's left of Honor (like the KR and now Dalinar).

That might well be true. But if so, then it just adds further weight to the idea that he fears repercussions from the other Shards. 

[StormingTexan he/him]

@Dreamstorm I also agree more with your option 3. I’m not saying it’s null and void. It’s just not an option for Odium now. Odium thought he had a slam dunk plan foiled by Cultivation. Heck I don’t think I’d believe anyone that says they didn’t think Dalinar was about to become his champion during that scene it all made sense at the time. Obviously a lot of this was Dalinar’s doing but Cultivation played a pretty big roll to and I’m excited to see more on how she’s pulling strings.

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

Quote

I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw.

I saw this a lot before OB, but not since then. What if this Death Rattle refers to the champion? What if Odium chooses Oroden or someone like him so Honor won't win? 

[Vissy]

4 hours ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

I saw this a lot before OB, but not since then. What if this Death Rattle refers to the champion? What if Odium chooses Oroden or someone like him so Honor won't win? 

I'm not sure that he *can* choose just anyone as his Champion. As @Dreamstorm said, an option like that would drain all of the drama out of the situation. Odium can just keep choosing people important to the main cast (or innocent children) who also can't resist him. The way he groomed Dalinar suggests to me that he needs a suitable Vessel, in a similar sense as Kelsier and Wax are connected to Ruin, Odium needs someone who is suitable.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Vissy

[Guest]

19 hours ago, BraidedRose said:

So partially I think you are arguing against some points that I haven't and wouldn't actually make myself, but that aside I will try to respond to clarify some of my points.

It is why I said the following: I am not saying these reasons are your personal reasons to root for it, but in the end, these discussions always come down to the same points. 

19 hours ago, BraidedRose said:

Bottom line I think is that you just don't believe based on what we've seen that Adolin could become OC, and that's fine, I'm definitely not trying to convince you that it is possible. I happen to think it is still one interesting possibility among others. Maybe the difference partially comes down to each of our assumptions about what OC must be. You suspect that OC must be a monster prior to becoming OC, I'm not sure this is true (but neither of us knows for sure at this point). Would you consider Dalinar to be a monster at the point Odium is trying to convince him to become his champion? I would argue that he was a monster prior to Cultivation's pruning but that he is far from a monster now. And I don't think the reason he didn't become OC is because he is not a monster, I think he could have in that moment but chose under extreme duress to defy him. Based on that I suspect a similar person in a similar circumstance could have chosen to give in to Odium, which opens up a lot more possibilities for who it could be, if indeed Odium will get to choose another after Dalinar's refusal. nge. 

I perhaps need to clarify my thoughts some more: I do not think the OC absolutely needs to be a monster, but I do believe it needs to be an individual capable of great evil. It needs to be someone able to kill others without valid justifications, it needs to be someone able to fight man kind, to destroy man kind. Dalinar has been and will always be this man. Fundamentally, he hasn't changed: he just refused to allow one entire side of him to get out ever again. He bond himself, he controlled himself, but the beast still sleeps inside him.

Hence do I think Dalinar was a monster at the time where Odium tried to take control of him? I think Dalinar is and always will be a monster, but with a strong resolve, supernatural help and a rigid code, Dalinar managed to tame the beast, to put it to sleep deep enough to avoid it leaping out once again. It however wouldn't take much for this to happen again. Dalinar himself comments how he constantly fears losing control again, how he doesn't think it would take much for him to lose control which is exactly what Odium was praying on.

Dalinar could be the man, once again. He chose not to. He is a monster, but he chose not to let this side of him roam free again. He could have chosen differently. Odium was thinking Dalinar wouldn't be strong enough to resist the temptation to be the Blackthorn again. I do agree another similar individual within similar conditions might have make a different choice. I disagree this individual could be Adolin. I disagree because Adolin never had this negative destructive energy within himself, he never had this need to kill, he never succumbed to the Thrill even when he could feel it, he never glorified warfare.

19 hours ago, BraidedRose said:

I agree that Odium was grooming Dalinar for a long time and if he gets to choose another, it may take a lot of work on whoever that is as well, it won't be simply applying pressure for a few minutes on another random person. 

This is something we both agree on: another individual would also take work, maybe not as much work, but work nonetheless. Currently, the one character we have seen such pressure being applied on is Moash. The Fused have been grooming Moash for something, they have pushed him towards a path he may not have taken, they have given justification for his feelings of revenge. 

19 hours ago, BraidedRose said:

To be clear about the point I made about being born under the sign of nine: I do not at all believe that being born under the sign of nine in any way predisposes Adolin to be influenced by Odium. I just believe that Brandon didn't mention it for no reason, but it could be a different reason.

Taking a random event a given individual has no control over, such as a birth date, and making it foreshadowing for a given path is the equivalent of robbing this character from any agency. Adolin has no control over the day of his birth: it can't foreshadowed his future because it would make his every decision making irrelevant. It ties his faith to something he cannot change, cannot control, has no power over.

This definitely isn't the kind of foreshadowing Brandon uses. Brandon will use actions apparently meaningless which later turn more significant as foreshadowing (Adolin talking to his Blade for instance), but he will not use something as trivial and cheap as the "date of birth of a character".

I maintain my point, readers are reading way too much into it. The reason to mention it doesn't have to be more complicated than "it was something Adolin would readily say".

19 hours ago, BraidedRose said:

About people not making a 180 degree turn or fundamentally changing: partially I agree but not 100%. I would argue in an extreme case people may do a 180 turn (Dalinar with a lot of help for example) but in most cases people grow and evolve along the lines they tend towards. I believe Adolin basically is a good person but parts of him are still unclear to me. I find his viewpoints not very internally focused so I don't feel I understand his character as in depth as I do Kaladin for example. Shallan is another one that is hard to understand for different reasons because she is an unreliable narrator. And again, I'm operating under the assumption that Adolin (or anyone else for that matter) wouldn't necessarily have to do a 180 to become OC but I could be wrong. Either way, if we are going to see someone really unexpected become OC it will have to be justified with a lot of development before we get there, but I trust that BS would do it well if he went in that direction. 

Dalinar never did a 180. He is and remains the man he always was. He is and remains the rigid, authoritative, not too keen on strategy and politics, loving the fight and being more at ease hitting someone else than talking man he always been. He remains a cold, not very loving individual. He remains harsh with Adolin, he still tends to forget Renarin exists. What changed is he learned to better control his more bestial side. I didn't think the flashbacks depicted a much different man, they depicted the same man we had been reading. The different is Dalinar is older, calmer and able to control his urges by applying a very rigid code of life. He is and remains a tyrant. 

Dalinar's core characteristics never changed and neither do I believe Adolin's core characteristics will change. Adolin is loyal, compassionate, at ease in a crowd, but lacks the patience for political games, genuinely honest and authentic. He hates the fight and having to kill Alethi is not sitting well with him. He is not comfortable with the carnage he is able to do with his Blade which is completely unlike his father. Having Adolin turn into the individual he would need to be to become the OC would require him to change on several, if not all, of his core characteristics. Adolin will not start to love the warfare and the killing because he may have a bit of a hardship coming down in his life nor will he start to yearn to slay his people just by learning his father did it at the Rift.

This is why I sincerely do not believe Adolin can be the OC. He just isn't the right individual. He doesn't have this beast in him. Moash, though, he has it.

Of course, Adolin is not well-fleshed out, but we have to make the difference in between writing flaws and the author's intends. It is clear to me Brandon does not intend for his readers to read Adolin as any different than the good-heartened man he is depicted as. If there may not have been enough page time to convince all readers, this isn't because Brandon has "other plans" or we should be reading "something else" instead.  It is because Brandon never believed he needed to write Adolin's viewpoints to flesh out his character. He said so on a few occasions. Arguably, some readers disagree, but there isn't much we can do about it: Brandon is unlikely to even read the critics for OB, much less do something about them.

18 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

As for whether or not Adolin could be the Champion, I basically agree with all the arguments @maxal made in her post. I hate the idea of Adolin going all Darth Vader because I absolutely love the idea of him reviving Maya and becoming a badchull Edgedancer and fighting with the other Radiants. Plus, he just seems too loyal to his friends and family to side with Odium. I could see a way where it would happen if Odium told Adolin he couldn't save his friends and family by becoming Odium's Champion, but I don't think Adolin would do it. 

I once said if Adolin could be convinced allying himself with the opposing side would protect his loved ones, then maybe he would go for it, but this is a very strong maybe. Adolin does not just care about Dalinar, he cares about Alethi. He seems virtually impossible for him to be in a situation where being the OC fits with his core characteristics, driving energy and allows him to remain loyal to the Radiants. He is not jealous nor envious, when confronted, he just works harder.