BraidedRose Posted December 29, 2017 Author Posted December 29, 2017 @maxal I appreciate that you are very strong and clear on your point of view. We probably have to just agree to disagree on some points. I think quite a bit of the disagreement actually comes from having different interpretations or impressions of both characters (more so Dalinar, I think we actually largely agree on Adolin as he stands currently). But I like that BS writes very complex characters that are open to a lot of interpretations so that's to be expected. The only other point I'll add is on the following: Quote 8 hours ago, maxal said: I perhaps need to clarify my thoughts some more: I do not think the OC absolutely needs to be a monster, but I do believe it needs to be an individual capable of great evil. It needs to be someone able to kill others without valid justifications, it needs to be someone able to fight man kind, to destroy man kind. Dalinar has been and will always be this man. Fundamentally, he hasn't changed: he just refused to allow one entire side of him to get out ever again. He bond himself, he controlled himself, but the beast still sleeps inside him. You say OC needs to be an individual capable of great evil, and naturally I expect that OC will do great evil. But I suspect that the act of becoming OC would change a person, opening them up further to his influence, and however Odium is able to affect them from that point on might make them far more capable of evil than they were previously. For instance, Odium might be able to suppress the parts of that person that would stop them from evil acts, once they had agreed to accept something from him. I think becoming OC requires susceptibility to his influence, a strong incentive to give into the temptation of what he offers (in the case of Dalinar it was the chance to be free from the nearly unbearable pain of responsibility, but he might offer something else to another person). And probably it requires some steps towards evil along the way, but they may not need to get all the way there on their own. I certainly hope that if such a thing occurs it is fleshed out and we see enough steps along the way so that it doesn't feel abrupt (ahem *Anakin* cough). I certainly don't expect to see Adolin as he is now one chapter and then completely evil the next. And I don't think at this point in the story Adolin does have enough reason to be susceptible to Odium, it just seems possible that a character that we now put on the good side could change enough to become susceptible and eventually be swayed. 1
Soby Posted December 3, 2018 Posted December 3, 2018 I also believe Dalinar was Odium’s champion. Dalinar’s vision of the champion corresponds to the vision Kaladin saw in the lighthouse in Shadesmar. However, I wonder what this does to the outcome—seeing as the almighty gave recommendation for Dalinar to persuade odium to take a champion. This also makes me wonder if it’s possible the Almighty is under the influence of Odium? Maybe the Almighty bonding to Dalinar was all a part of Odium’s plan—he’s able to enter the visions and interact with Dalinar and the Almighty seems to be submitted to Odium. Could this be a reason the recreance happened? The radiants could no longer trust their bonds due to the death of the almighty and Odium’s influence on the sapient Spren? just some thoughts... 1
StrikerEZ he/him Posted December 3, 2018 Posted December 3, 2018 @Soby It’s been almost a year since the last post in this thread, nice necro. Anyway, you did bring up a good point. However, I would first like to point out that Honor is the Almighty, so I find it unlikely that Odium was able to corrupt or influence him to a noticable extent. It could be possibly that Odium corrupted the visions themselves, but I think the Stormfather would’ve known if he was giving corrupted visions. Anyway, I don’t think Honor knew who exactly was gonna be receiving his visions, as he kinda had the Stormfather on autopilot, where the Stormfather was just giving visions to anyone and everyone who could possibly meet the requirements of becoming a bondsmith. Honor couldn’t have known that Odium would try and turn Dalinar, who he wouldn’t have even known was gonna receive the visions or could even have guessed would have such a large connection to Odium, to become Odium’s champion, though.
Soby Posted December 5, 2018 Posted December 5, 2018 I mostly agree with you. I was about 4 chapters from finishing OB when I posted. However it’s strangely coincidental that the almighty chose Dalinar at the same time as odium. I actually think Cultivation saw that dalinar was being used by Odium when he visited the Nightwotcher and she somehow sent the Almighty to Dalinar then. The explanation of the recreance in the last chapters of OB obliterates my theory above—as does the fact that odium isn’t necessarily directly compromising spren but Sja Anat. Anyways thanks for the response and for humoring me! 1
StrikerEZ he/him Posted December 6, 2018 Posted December 6, 2018 8 hours ago, Soby said: I mostly agree with you. I was about 4 chapters from finishing OB when I posted. However it’s strangely coincidental that the almighty chose Dalinar at the same time as odium. I actually think Cultivation saw that dalinar was being used by Odium when he visited the Nightwotcher and she somehow sent the Almighty to Dalinar then. The explanation of the recreance in the last chapters of OB obliterates my theory above—as does the fact that odium isn’t necessarily directly compromising spren but Sja Anat. Anyways thanks for the response and for humoring me! You’re welcome! And I applaud you for being brave enough to come on here and risk seeing spoilers when you were that close to finishing the book.
Scion of the Mists Posted December 6, 2018 Posted December 6, 2018 On 12/3/2018 at 11:19 AM, Soby said: I also believe Dalinar was Odium’s champion. Dalinar’s vision of the champion corresponds to the vision Kaladin saw in the lighthouse in Shadesmar. However, I wonder what this does to the outcome—seeing as the almighty gave recommendation for Dalinar to persuade odium to take a champion. This also makes me wonder if it’s possible the Almighty is under the influence of Odium? Maybe the Almighty bonding to Dalinar was all a part of Odium’s plan—he’s able to enter the visions and interact with Dalinar and the Almighty seems to be submitted to Odium. Could this be a reason the recreance happened? The radiants could no longer trust their bonds due to the death of the almighty and Odium’s influence on the sapient Spren? just some thoughts... The Almighty is Honor; the Stormfather is the one who bonds with Dalinar. The Almighty/Honor fought and was killed by Odium. The Stormfather is a large spren who has merged with the remnants of Honor (i.e. his Cognitive Shadow). This merger is what allows the Stormfather to sort of carry out Honor's final wishes, which are to find/bond a Bondsmith to fight Odium. If you want to know more, check out the Coppermind (basically our version of Wikipedia) and join us down the rabbit hole.
Vissy Posted December 6, 2018 Posted December 6, 2018 Is Dalinar 100% ruled out of eventually becoming Odium's Champion anyway? Just throwing that out there.
+robardin he/him Posted December 6, 2018 Posted December 6, 2018 We don't even know what being the Desginated Champion entails. Odium implied it would have to do with leading in warfare, as he wanted to name Dalinar as someone who "dominated a battlefield the way the sun dominates the sky", but now that Dalinar has respectfully declined the office, maybe he'll go with choosing someone who would win in a contest of another sort. Like using Taravangian on one of his smartest days to play Dalinar at blindfolded chess.
Solant he/him Posted December 8, 2018 Posted December 8, 2018 The champions battle will be the Alethi card game. I call it now.
Grytorm Posted December 10, 2018 Posted December 10, 2018 Hello, first time poster, I should reread the latest book. My main thought from the thread was an observation about the comparison with the duel Sadeas agreed to. I think it is possible that Adolin ends up being the champion of the shard previously existing as honor because of his association with duels. Which suddenly gives me the image of him running into OD in a back room and killing him. As for Odium's choice, Adolin, Moash, Taravangian seem reasonable characters but none of them seem just right. Maybe the knight radiant working for Taravangian or one of his other subordinates. A Vorin priest or one of Shallan's family could be interesting but would need development. 1
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted December 10, 2018 Posted December 10, 2018 On 2018-12-06 at 9:47 PM, robardin said: Like using Taravangian on one of his smartest days to play Dalinar at blindfolded chess. And Dalinar wins on walk-over because Taravangian is too smart to bother with something as simple as chess.
Winds Alight she/her Posted December 12, 2018 Posted December 12, 2018 Currently, my biggest fear is that it's going to be Moash, pitted against Kaladin as Dalinar's champion. Also, regarding Moash's view on humans ("they are beyond salvation and need to go"), it would fit. Beyond that, I have no real idea. I can't imagine Kaladin changing sides and be OC. I can imagine it's going to be Adolin. I also see the point on those who say the champion's contest won't happen as intended, as Dalinar kinda spoiled that for Odium already.
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