Popular Post Song she/her Posted December 21, 2017 Popular Post Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 So we know that Renarin seems to have a special place in the Diagram, and Odium is unable to see his part in it. I can see two possible reasons for this, that might be inter-related. 1. His ability to see the future as Odium sees it changes the future. We know that Renarin seems to have his future seeing ability through Glys' corruption. Presumably (given that both Renarin and Odium incorrectly see Dalinar fall) the future he sees is the same future that Odium has predicted. But this knowledge changes things. For example, Jasnah is set to kill Renarin when he turns around and nods, knowing what she will do and accepting it. That act prompts her to stop. By knowing a future he ended up preventing it. It will be interesting to see if he will start using this information consciously, working against Odium by using his own assumptions about the future against him. 2. He is Like an anti-Odium In the scene "A small bottle" Dalinar reflects that he can't understand why his sons don't hate him. This is particularly striking for Renarin given that we have seen ample evidence of Dalinar' lack of love towards his youngest up to this point. Yet he doesn't hate him, instead he shows extrodinary love and empathy. It may be that Renarin is so different from Odium that he either slips under the radar or Odium simply can't predict his actions because they are so alien to his nature. Curious to hear other theories. 41 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Extesian he/him Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 I love the first explanation. Much like burning atium messing with another person's atium shadows. 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabiyume Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 I agree with almost everything about this theory. Renarin' knowledge and subsequent actions do change the future! However, I think everyone has the potential to have Odium control them, but they choose not to. That's how Sanderson usually writes things, such as Mistborn spoiler Spoiler Vin having connection with both Ruin and Preservation, or every person in the world being affected by Ruin's power. Since Mistborn is the only book where we've seen a lot of revelation into the Shards' minds, I feel like this theory has some weight behind it. Odium is blind to Renarin though, or unable to predict his actions. He has in fact shown that he is unaware of this blindness. So yeah I'm also interested to know Renarin will use it, if he uses it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 (edited) Honestly, I'm about 95% sure that Feather's secretly holding Brandon hostage Misery-style and demanding that he write a bigger role for Renarin. Seriously though, I think it's most likely a combination of the two, but I find the second more interesting. Let me explain a bit: Odium reminds me a lot of Molag Bal from the Elder Scrolls, but mainly how Vicn writes him in the Skyrim mod Vigilant (fantastic mod by the way, it's a must-play). For those of you who aren't familiar with ES lore or Vigilant, Molag Bal is the Daedric Lord (basically a god/devil) of Domination, so his basic role is trying to enslave as many people as possible, sort of like how Rayse/Odium wants the Cosmere under his thumb. I can go into more detail in a dedicated post, but Vicn (author of Vigilant) writes Molag Bal in an incredibly layered manner that really turns him into an A+ antagonist. The central character arc for him dealt with the creation of Vampires, and the basic gist (or at least my interpretation) is that a Bard falls in love with a Priestess, and makes a deal with Molag Bal to serve him in exchange for the Priestess' safety. This comes to a crossroads when the Priestess is going to be murdered, so the Bard mantles Molag Bal (which in Elder Scrolls is somewhat analogous to becoming a shardholder), and turns the Priestess into the first Vampire (thereby technically fulfilling Molag Bal's promise). However, the Priestess hates what's happened to her, and when the player character rolls around to slay her, doesn't actually put up any fight herself and basically lets herself be killed. Molag Bal's furious about this, as he simply can't grasp her rejection of him, and ends up over-zealously seeking revenge against the player character, which is what eventually allows you to defeat him. There's a bit more to the story, but that's sort of the basic idea of the "true" route. So to relate this back to the Stormlight Archive, Rayse is the Bard, Odium (the shard) is Molag Bal, and in this case Sja-Anat/Renarin/Glys are the Priestess. Odium's weakness doesn't have to be anything specific to Renarin, but a more basic character flaw. Odium may simply not be able to understand that his creations may not follow him, which I think could be a super interesting way of Brandon portraying him. We've already established that Odium is splintering other shards to consolidate his intent as supreme, so he may just not grasp the possibility of his own splinters not sharing that same goal. IMO, this type of emotional conflict would be way better than a purely magical/mechanical conflict, as it would allow for deeper character exploration. I know I probably didn't do a great job of explaining, and I might make a dedicated post about why I see so many parallels, but I think that the idea of a god (Odium) not understanding why his creations (Sja-Anat, Renarin, Glys) would go against him is a fantastic format for constructive character exploration, and I really hope that Brandon takes that route as opposed to a more physical "Future Sight beats Future Sight" one. TL;DR: Brandon may go with Option 1, but I think that Option 2 done correctly would make Odium an incredible character Edited December 21, 2017 by Patrick Star Molag Bal's not a protagonist lol 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 (edited) I'd go with option 1. He changed his future. He was supposed to die. The Diagram, and Odium's foresight, both predicted his death. Since he's not dead, he's unaccounted for, and his actions haven't been/were unable to be predicted. I would guess that if Odium paid attention or if T re-wrote the Diagram, he'd be able to predict this new series of events. But they haven't or can't, so they have no idea what a living Renarin will do. Also, you probably want to make the topic of the thread a little more generic, per the spoiler policy at the top. Edited December 21, 2017 by RShara 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvisual Haze Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 He's the Kwisatz Haderach! A prescient individual like Renarin can react in almost real-time to perceived changes in the future. As such, he is virtually impossible for others who try to predict the future (Odium and The Diagram) to account for. It's the same idea as 2 people burning Atium (you see their future and react, but they see your future and also react, and the result is an infinite fracturing of probabilities as both try to respond to the future action of the other). Everyone should read Dune (God Emperor spoilers) Spoiler To prevent individuals with strong prescient abilities from enslaving the galaxy, our prescient protagonist spreads and dilutes his family's genes across the galaxy. A large number of individuals with a small amount of prescient ability effectively neutralizes the ability of anyone to accurately see and control the future. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Investor Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 It should be important to note that Shardic future sight is NOT guaranteed. They can see the potential paths and whats more likely to occur than the other, but not with true certainty. So Jasnah not killing Renarin and Dalinar choosing to accept his burden were always possibilities. But for some reason in this instance, Odium either chose to ignore those possibilities (a character flaw, an abysmal chance of happening, whatever) or more likely Odium was unable to see them and interpreted the future wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoddessIMHO Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 It wasn't Renarin who "changed" the future. It was Jasnah and Dalinar. They were the change agents, Renarin the observer. Yes, he let Jasnah know he accepted what he expected her to do but it was her not doing that was the change. Both he and Odium thought what they saw was immutable fact and it wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser he/him Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 This sort of overlaps the OP points, but I think there are other factors that strengthen them: Truthwatchers probably have some inherent trap-evasive properties by observing/having insights about situations I think the fact that it is Odium's investiture that corrupted Glys seems like it could be confusing to Odium Sja-Anat's corruption seems unpredictable Sja-Anat seems to be drifting in intent which could be even harder to predict. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssths'cha Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 "So we know that Renarin seems to have a special place in the Diagram, and Odium is unable to see his part in it." May I ask for the source on this? I've read the exchange between Odium and Taravangian and my first thought was "Odium put that there just so T would find it, think he has an advantage, and make a bad deal." Is there some other reference for Odium's inability to see it outside of a vision Odium set up on a day when Taravangian was below average? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Investor Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, GoddessIMHO said: It wasn't Renarin who "changed" the future. It was Jasnah and Dalinar. They were the change agents, Renarin the observer. Yes, he let Jasnah know he accepted what he expected her to do but it was her not doing that was the change. Both he and Odium thought what they saw was immutable fact and it wasn't. Renarin's visual acceptance could have been part of the change, convincing Jasnah to then change her decision. Depends on whether Renarin's vision had Renarin do the exact same thing. 11 minutes ago, Ssths'cha said: "So we know that Renarin seems to have a special place in the Diagram, and Odium is unable to see his part in it." May I ask for the source on this? I've read the exchange between Odium and Taravangian and my first thought was "Odium put that there just so T would find it, think he has an advantage, and make a bad deal." Is there some other reference for Odium's inability to see it outside of a vision Odium set up on a day when Taravangian was below average? Its presumed that Renarin's visions come from Odium, so what Odium sees is what Renarin sees. Renarin saw both his death and Dalinar's corruption, suggesting Odium saw the same. Edited December 21, 2017 by Wandering Investor 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.S.A.M.K.M Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 Honor said that cultivation had better perception of the future than him. Cultivation likely perceives the future in a different way than odium. Renarin likely has both due to his unique nature, not as powerful but in the right place and time, deeply effective. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvisual Haze Posted December 21, 2017 Report Share Posted December 21, 2017 2 hours ago, GoddessIMHO said: It wasn't Renarin who "changed" the future. It was Jasnah and Dalinar. They were the change agents, Renarin the observer. Yes, he let Jasnah know he accepted what he expected her to do but it was her not doing that was the change. Both he and Odium thought what they saw was immutable fact and it wasn't. Renarin saw that Jasnah would attempt to kill him in the temple. Knowing this, he faced his death with acceptance and sadness in his eyes, which was ultimately enough to move Jasnah to pause and feel pity. Little modifications like that can change everything. Brandon touched on this theme in his non-Cosmere short story Snap Shot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormlightning she/her Posted December 22, 2017 Report Share Posted December 22, 2017 To me, Renarin is who Evi would have been in the coming conflict if she had not been killed. The one just amazingly good, soft-hearted character in a messed up society and world. It's rare to see such characters become heroes because they usually get mowed down by the bold-and-fearless before they really get a chance to shine (case and point: Evi). As such, he's already a pretty unpredictable asset. And I really like the idea of his nature being something Odium can't predict...I feel like Brandon used that with Ruin but I can't quite remember how. I do think there is a more magical aspect to it though, because of the Diagram, which I expect is related to his bond to Sja-anat. I'm just trying to figure out how that plays such a big role, since the Everstorm and a million other things have also never happened in previous Desolations. I feel like it needs to be big. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heir of the Void he/him Posted December 22, 2017 Report Share Posted December 22, 2017 7 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said: A prescient individual like Renarin can react in almost real-time to perceived changes in the future. Technical objection; Renarian's abilities seem to be active too inconsistently for him to be reacting in real time, but the time-scale seems to be long enough for that not to matter. 3 hours ago, Ssths'cha said: May I ask for the source on this? When Mr. T is negotiating with Brodium, Odium first shows him the Diagram represented as words in the air, then shows him the much larger amount of the future that he can see. Mr. T reads some of it, including a message from his superbrain self correctly predicting that Dalinar would not become Odium's champion and instructing him on what offer to make. He also sees a section of greyed-out text 'rippling' forward from the name Renarian Kholin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted December 22, 2017 Report Share Posted December 22, 2017 2 minutes ago, Heir of the Void said: Technical objection; Renarian's abilities seem to be active too inconsistently for him to be reacting in real time, but the time-scale seems to be long enough for that not to matter. When Mr. T is negotiating with Brodium, Odium first shows him the Diagram represented as words in the air, then shows him the much larger amount of the future that he can see. Mr. T reads some of it, including a message from his superbrain self correctly predicting that Dalinar would not become Odium's champion and instructing him on what offer to make. He also sees a section of greyed-out text 'rippling' forward from the name Renarian Kholin. I still think this is just because Renarin's supposed to be dead, now. So he wasn't supposed to have any more future. If Odium hasn't realized that Renarin's still alive, that would explain why that area is dark. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuffel Posted December 22, 2017 Report Share Posted December 22, 2017 I believe it's similar to an atium battle. Renarin is a guy who can see the future but is also good. Since Renarin can see the future he can change it, this makes to many possible futures for Odium to see what Renarin can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvisual Haze Posted December 22, 2017 Report Share Posted December 22, 2017 9 minutes ago, Heir of the Void said: Technical objection; Renarian's abilities seem to be active too inconsistently for him to be reacting in real time, but the time-scale seems to be long enough for that not to matter. When Mr. T is negotiating with Brodium, Odium first shows him the Diagram represented as words in the air, then shows him the much larger amount of the future that he can see. Mr. T reads some of it, including a message from his superbrain self correctly predicting that Dalinar would not become Odium's champion and instructing him on what offer to make. He also sees a section of greyed-out text 'rippling' forward from the name Renarian Kholin. Oh sure, I phrased that wrong, I meant in the sense that Renarin gets repeated glimpses of the likely future, and thus has frequent moments where he can try to change something and mess up Odium's predictions. This being in contrast to The Diagram, which while brilliant, was a snapshot of possible futures taken at one moment in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Song she/her Posted December 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2017 4 hours ago, Ssths'cha said: "So we know that Renarin seems to have a special place in the Diagram, and Odium is unable to see his part in it." May I ask for the source on this? I've read the exchange between Odium and Taravangian and my first thought was "Odium put that there just so T would find it, think he has an advantage, and make a bad deal." Is there some other reference for Odium's inability to see it outside of a vision Odium set up on a day when Taravangian was below average? Independent of this scene, in Taravangian's genius day at Urithiru he mentions that the Diagram hadn't seen the effect of Renarin, that he was "a completely wild element". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssths'cha Posted December 22, 2017 Report Share Posted December 22, 2017 12 hours ago, Song said: Independent of this scene, in Taravangian's genius day at Urithiru he mentions that the Diagram hadn't seen the effect of Renarin, that he was "a completely wild element". Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwarder Posted December 22, 2017 Report Share Posted December 22, 2017 I’m calling it, Renarin will be the one ascending, I don’t know if it will be with one shard or more but he’ll either take Odium who we know it’s intent is passion and instead of hatred it will be something more benevolent or he either take both Honor and Odium and become a double shard like Harmony. Warder 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.S.A.M.K.M Posted December 22, 2017 Report Share Posted December 22, 2017 We know there are copies of the diagram out there, imagine if Renarin gets access to one some how. That would really mess with the state of play. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ailvara Posted December 23, 2017 Report Share Posted December 23, 2017 On 21.12.2017 at 11:49 PM, Subvisual Haze said: Renarin saw that Jasnah would attempt to kill him in the temple. Knowing this, he faced his death with acceptance and sadness in his eyes, which was ultimately enough to move Jasnah to pause and feel pity. Has he done anything similar to stop Dalinar from falling? I haven't noticed, if that change of the future is on Cultivation's behalf only, or if he had something to do with it. In the end, Cultivation's interference happened long ago enough to be already included in shaping the vision of the possible futures. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvisual Haze Posted December 23, 2017 Report Share Posted December 23, 2017 11 hours ago, Ailvara said: Has he done anything similar to stop Dalinar from falling? I haven't noticed, if that change of the future is on Cultivation's behalf only, or if he had something to do with it. In the end, Cultivation's interference happened long ago enough to be already included in shaping the vision of the possible futures. Dalinar seemed to be saved in the last second by a single gloryspren which gave him a very timely message about the most important step in a journey. Who sent that gloryspren and communicated that thought to Dalinar is another topic though (Nohadon's ghost/shadow seems a good guess). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willshaping Crasher Posted December 23, 2017 Report Share Posted December 23, 2017 Q: Why is Renarin the wildcard in the Diagram? WoK ch 15 Quote "What of you, young Prince Renarin? You father wishes me to leave you alone. Can you speak, yet say nothing ridiculous?" Eyes turned toward Renarin, who stood just behind his brother. Renarin hesitated, eyes opening wide at the attention. Dalinar grew tense. "Nothing Ridiculous," Renarin said slowly Wit laughed. "Yes, I suppose that will satisfy me. Very clever." A: Easy, he's the Joker ............Someone needs to make the bad jokes around here. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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