[OB] Why is Renarin the wildcard in the Diagram?

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

I mentioned this in another thread, but I think Renarin is invisible to Odium because he was spared due to Jasnah's compassion. I think compassion is to Odium what words written in metal are to Ruin. It's his blind spot, he predicts the future based on assumptions that are inline with his intent, but compassion seems to be a virtue in diametrical opposition to the intent of his shard, and therefore impossible to use as a predicate for future actions. That's also why Taravangian vacillates between extreme intelligence and extreme compassion, one state allows him to see the future as Odium sees it, the other state allows him to act in a fashion that is invisible to Odium.

I actually think Odium made a strategic blunder visiting T on one of his compassionate/stupid days because T's motivations were opaque to Odium. He acted from a position of pure compassion, letting his love of his grandchildren dictate the nature of the bargain with Odium. I think we are going to see in the course of the remaining books how compassion proves to be the  ultimate undoing of Odium, and I think the act of compassion of sparing, saving, and rehabilitating Renarin will be instrumental in Odium's eventual downfall.

[BraidedRose]

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine I really like your theory. It makes me wonder if Cultivation is aware of this weakness since she was involved in creating the dichotomy of intelligence and compassion in T. If so are shards generally aware of the weakness of other shards? And then what about Honor? Don't recall him mentioning that in his visions to Dalinar but maybe that would have revealed too much to Odium. 

[Song she/her]

On 12/23/2017 at 7:56 PM, Ailvara said:

Has he done anything similar to stop Dalinar from falling? I haven't noticed, if that change of the future is on Cultivation's behalf only, or if he had something to do with it. In the end, Cultivation's interference happened long ago enough to be already included in shaping the vision of the possible futures.

Yes. It is not so much that Renarin made Dalinar resist Odium, the Dalinar part of the theory is more to show that both Renarin and Odium seem to see what Odium believes will happen, not what does happen. 

Though I would say that Renarin's action in showing love to his Father at his lowest point was (along with Way of the King) one of the factors that took Dalinar to the Nightwatcher/cultivation anyway, so I do think Renarin is involved in Dalinar's resistance.

[Song she/her]

21 hours ago, Willshaping Crasher said:

Q: Why is Renarin the wildcard in the Diagram?

WoK ch 15

A:  Easy, he's the Joker

............Someone needs to make the bad jokes around here.

Thanks Shallan

[Totally_Not_A_Worldhopper she/her]

I assumed it was his future -seeing (I've forgotten the actual word) powers,  but I like @hoiditthroughthegrapevine's theory 

Also, thanks for the jokes, and does anyone mind if I kidnap Sanderson and make him write bigger roles for my favorite characters (Renarin mostly, and Jasnah and Rlain (and some others))?

[Song she/her]

9 minutes ago, Totally_Not_A_Worldhopper said:

thanks for the jokes, and does anyone mind if I kidnap Sanderson and make him write bigger roles for my favorite characters (Renarin mostly, and Jasnah and Rlain (and some others))?

More from those three would be awesome! I suspect Rlain is a given since it is a listener book. I wish we could have more Renarin but I suspect we will have the long wait until the back half

I can't condon kiddnapping, even for such a good cause

 

[RShara she/her]

I think Odium saw him dying, so didn't look at him any further.  Since he didn't die, everything that he does from that point on is completely unexpected, which is why he was a dark area.

[ghajan monk]

9 hours ago, RShara said:

I think Odium saw him dying, so didn't look at him any further.  Since he didn't die, everything that he does from that point on is completely unexpected, which is why he was a dark area.

The problem I have with that explanation is that Odium's meeting with Taravingian takes place after Dalinar rejects Odium.

Dalinar Ascended. If there is one family that Odium should be paying close attention to it is the Kholins. To me Renarin is the second Kholin after Dalinar most likely to draw Odium's attention. So why has Odium not noticed part of the Diagram talking about Dalinar's son, especially the one that has bonded a spren corrupted by Sja-anat?

Edited February 11, 2018 by ghajan monk

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

16 hours ago, ghajan monk said:

The problem I have with that explanation is that Odium's meeting with Taravingian takes place after Dalinar rejects Odium.

Dalinar Ascended. If there is one family that Odium should be paying close attention to it is the Kholins. To me Renarin is the second Kholin after Dalinar most likely to draw Odium's attention. So why has Odium not noticed part of the Diagram talking about Dalinar's son, especially the one that has bonded a spren corrupted by Sja-anat?

Exactly! I think this has to do with the fact that Renarin should have died. Jasnah suspected he had a corrupted spren, and she was ready to kill him to protect her family. But, Renarin, seeing his imminent death at the hands of his cousin, instead of trying to save himself weeps for his father. His last concern before his certain death that he has seen played out before him in the shifting panorama of stained glass, is not for himself but rather for his father. I think this is the pivotal moment that undoes all of Odium's plans. Jasnah realizes that Renarin is offering himself up like a fatted calf for slaughter, and sees that even knowing that his own death is imminent, does nothing to resist his fate, but instead worries only about his fathers fate. If he had struggled or fought, Jasnah would have killed him without compunction. But because he is huddled on the floor, weeping for his father, Jasnah sees him as the tragic figure that he is, who is in desperate need of compassion. And this dual act of compassion saves Renarin, and because he was saved by an act of compassion (which is antithetical to Odium's intent) he becomes an invisible piece on the great chessboard.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

I just think Jasnah didn't kill Renarin because he was her cousin. It was a deeply emotional moment, but reason had little to do with it. She just knew in the moment of truth she chose love for her cousin over logic which said he was dangerous. It almost makes me wonder if this will have damaged Jasnah's Oaths since Elsecallers are based entirely on logic and reasoning. 

I just think Renarin is a wildcard in the same way that Venli is. They both have investiture from Odium and Honor (and maybe Cultivation too). The mix of all these Shards which are warring with each other makes a unique meld that means they are hard to predict. Maybe the dual investiture is getting in the way of predictions, or maybe they just become blind spots. 

[Weltall]

I'm in the camp of Renarin being the wildcard because of his ability to see the future, full stop. We know from other examples of this that two individuals with access to the Spiritual can interfere with one another's prescience, so even though Taravangian may have been much better than Renarin on his day of brilliance and Odium is far better all the time, Renarin's ability to see even a short distance into the future can interfere with other forms of prescience. Since Renarin's power comes unpredictably (from what we can see) its ripple effects would likewise be harder to predict and thus create more potential interference.

Basically, Renarin fits nicely into already known mechanics so right now I don't think we need to posit additional explanations for why two different prescient individuals couldn't predict his actions. If it was just Odium or just Taravangian it might be a different matter and we could look at potential weaknesses in their respective methods of foresight (possible Focus issues a la metal being invisible to Ruin, the one-instant nature of the Diagram etc.) but with both, I'm inclined to stay with the simplest explanation for now.

7 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

It almost makes me wonder if this will have damaged Jasnah's Oaths since Elsecallers are based entirely on logic and reasoning.

I doubt Jasnah's oaths are in any danger. First, we don't have the slightest clue what they are yet so we can't know what may or may not go against them (aside from what we can deduce via negative implication, like there being nothing in her current oaths involving not soulcasting sapient beings) and second, immediately afterwards Ivory declares that Jasnah made the right choice, even if he doesn't understand what just happened or why.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Weltall

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

24 minutes ago, Weltall said:

immediately afterwards Ivory declares that Jasnah made the right choice, even if he doesn't understand what just happened or why.

I had forgotten that part, nice reminder. I think most KR spren end up revolving about doing what they feel is right. With the possible exception of the Skybreakers.

[Song she/her]

10 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I just think Jasnah didn't kill Renarin because he was her cousin. It was a deeply emotional moment, but reason had little to do with it. She just knew in the moment of truth she chose love for her cousin over logic which said he was dangerous. It almost makes me wonder if this will have damaged Jasnah's Oaths since Elsecallers are based entirely on logic and reasoning. 

My theory is that Jasnah's 4th oath will relate to balancing logic and compassion (and that the act of sparing Renarin is why she seemed to be almost manifesting a plate in the battle).

[Bort he/him]

On 12/22/2017 at 10:34 PM, .S.A.M.K.M said:

We know there are copies of the diagram out there, imagine if Renarin gets access to one some how. That would really mess with the state of play.

I'm pretty sure that he'll be able to read it.

[Bort he/him]

On 12/23/2017 at 8:56 AM, Ailvara said:

Has he done anything similar to stop Dalinar from falling? I haven't noticed, if that change of the future is on Cultivation's behalf only, or if he had something to do with it. In the end, Cultivation's interference happened long ago enough to be already included in shaping the vision of the possible futures.

Didn't Renarin have something to do with broken Dalinar going to the Nightwatcher?

 

Edit: Oops, sorry for double post.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Bort

[Kaladins]

Honestly, him being cast as the observer rather than the participator is what drew Odium to him, as he suspected that he wouldn't try to change the future, and would shear a powerful character from the narrative too soon. 

Renarin has mostly unexplored potential, to everyone around him and to himself. This made him a frightening prospect, but by giving him the ability to see the future, he was able to make sure he stayed in calm knowing and accepted the destruction of himself. His survival was completely unexpected, because Odium thought he was going to die. I imagine Odium himself knows that he can change the future and visions an extremely precise estimate, but didn't predict if Renarin found this out.

Renarin lived, and evaded what Odium had planned, and by doing that he created a different, unexplored timeline. One where Dalinar's forces were not overwhelmed and instead beat out Nergaoul, and Dalinar didn't get forced into becoming champion. This is likely to create a grand scheme of changes that Odium will be overwhelmed by, if briefly. 

Maybe it will give our Radiants time to regroup properly? Who knows. Not us until 2020/2021 ish.

 

[ZenBossanova]

I am going to go with a third option - Cultivation. 

She has had time to plan and cultivate and she is has set up things so some Radiants (of which Renarin is the first) will have a powerset partly of Odium, and be completely invisible to him. The more power he brings to Roshar, the more powerful these wildcards become. 

Note, it isn't just Renarin. It is also Venli. She has a mixed powerset as well, when that shouldn't be possible, and again, Odium is ignorant of it. 

Cultivation is co-oping Odium's own power and advantages for herself, all under his nose and without him knowing. 

Prediction: When Odium does figure it out, he is going to flip out in a highly disproportionate manner. He will not be happy with powers mixing. 

[Morsk he/him]

I'm late replying to this, but I think it's forgiveness Odium can't understand, the same way Honor was unable to consider the Heralds breaking their oaths. And Odium is clever, and tries to work around this by making people do things so horrible they won't be forgiven. But if they're forgiven anyway, he's in uncharged uncharted territory where he can't see the future and his plans fall apart.

It also helps smooth over ridiculous things, like people being okay with Dalinar and Szeth's crimes. If forgiveness is the only way to fight Odium, I don't need as much suspension of disbelief here. (Dalinar forgiving Szeth, I can buy, because Dalinar is so desperate for forgiveness himself that he'd do desperate things. Everyone else, though...)

Edited February 16, 2018 by Morsk

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

4 hours ago, Morsk said:

I'm late replying to this, but I think it's forgiveness Odium can't understand, the same way Honor was unable to consider the Heralds breaking their oaths. And Odium is clever, and tries to work around this by making people do things so horrible they won't be forgiven. But if they're forgiven anyway, he's in uncharged uncharted territory where he can't see the future and his plans fall apart.

It also helps smooth over ridiculous things, like people being okay with Dalinar and Szeth's crimes. If forgiveness is the only way to fight Odium, I don't need as much suspension of disbelief here. (Dalinar forgiving Szeth, I can buy, because Dalinar is so desperate for forgiveness himself that he'd do desperate things. Everyone else, though...)

Thats a very good point. Mainly because its very hard Kaladin would forgive Szeth. Szeth killed several of Bridge 4, and we all know what Kaladin thinks of that. But if its the only way to survival...people will do incredible things to survive.

[Rage_Fortress he/him]

On ‎12‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 9:56 PM, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

I mentioned this in another thread, but I think Renarin is invisible to Odium because he was spared due to Jasnah's compassion. I think compassion is to Odium what words written in metal are to Ruin. It's his blind spot, he predicts the future based on assumptions that are inline with his intent, but compassion seems to be a virtue in diametrical opposition to the intent of his shard, and therefore impossible to use as a predicate for future actions. That's also why Taravangian vacillates between extreme intelligence and extreme compassion, one state allows him to see the future as Odium sees it, the other state allows him to act in a fashion that is invisible to Odium.

I actually think Odium made a strategic blunder visiting T on one of his compassionate/stupid days because T's motivations were opaque to Odium. He acted from a position of pure compassion, letting his love of his grandchildren dictate the nature of the bargain with Odium. I think we are going to see in the course of the remaining books how compassion proves to be the  ultimate undoing of Odium, and I think the act of compassion of sparing, saving, and rehabilitating Renarin will be instrumental in Odium's eventual downfall.

This is such a cool theory and your username is awesome.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

2 minutes ago, theuntaintedchild said:

This is such a cool theory and your username is awesome.

Thanks on both counts. I like your profile picture, but what are you holding in your hand? It looks like a giant pickle.

[Rage_Fortress he/him]

1 minute ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Thanks on both counts. I like your profile picture, but what are you holding in your hand? It looks like a giant pickle.

It's a sonic screwdriver from the show Doctor Who. The picture was taken at a nerd-con. My friend was taking pictures and she said I didn't look excited enough to be at a convention, so over exaggerated a bit. LOL.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

Rad

[Cognitive Shadow he/him]

Whovians unite! I have the 11th screwdriver and costume.

[Rage_Fortress he/him]

On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 3:31 PM, Cognitive Shadow said:

Whovians unite! I have the 11th screwdriver and costume.

Twelve is my favorite followed by ten, eleven, and four. Despite the fact that eleven is only my third favorite. He's the most like me in personality. I'm a really big happy kid all the time. XD