Knights Radiant Orders and Surge Combination Theories

[Boundless]

It makes a whole lot  more sense that they are the Tenth.  Their first oath is about Uniting them, which fits very well with the ideals of the tenth order.  In addition The Pressure surge is often called Binding, and it makes sense The Stormfather and Syl would be close to each other in usage.  Resolute is almost surely Willshapers.  

 

From there it makes sense that Ranarin as a Truthwatcher would have illumination and Progression(growth)

If you look at the date that I posted that it was before WoR had been released, and before I had read it. I knew nothing of Willshapers or Truthwatchers at that time. Post WoR I would have to agree with you. Truthwatchers are the 5th Order, Willshapers the 8th and Bondsmiths are the 10th.

 

The Attributes have nothing to do with the Order's name. They have everything to do with their powers. Windrunners fly, Skybreakers fly, Lightweavers make illusions... Bondsmiths use Adhesion to make bonds between things.

 

Given that Dalinar bonded with a spren god I think it's pretty apparent that Bondsmiths are Order 10. Pious/guiding works perfectly.

It seems to me that the Primary Attribute of Windrunners has a lot to do with the oaths they take. However, as said above, I hadn't read WoR yet, and I had assumed that every Order would have oaths pertaining to their Primary/Secondary Attributes. We now know that the Lightweavers make no Oaths beyond the first, so my theory doesn't exactly work. However its seems to me that Shallan is very Creative, which is Lightweavers Primary Attribute, and the Truths she must speak about herself to advance as a Lightweaver seem to be similar to Honesty, the Secondary Attribute.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Boundless

[semper_sursum]

Maybe this will help. Here are a couple pictures that I created or edited to clear up the Orders and their Surges. Information was taken from the Ars Arcanum and Coppermind.

 

 

[Tempus]

So far, from what we've seen, the surges do NOT combine to create "super surges," though we HAVE seen cool synergies - and I think that's an important distinction. Windrunners have had their abilities explored the most of any, and we have yet to see a "fourth lashing" that truly combines the gravitational lashings (basic and reverse) and the adhesive lashing (full).

basic lashing - gravity

Full lashing - adhesion

Reverse lashing - adhereing gravity to an object

Also, brain waves are not waves. The measured output of neural oscillation LOOKS like a drawing of a wave, similar to a seismograph.

[illsmithyourbonds]

Uhh okay so I think Ym and Renarin are of the same order, and that when Ym died, the spren that was beginning to bond/had bonded with him had/wanted to find someone else in Roshar to bond with and chose Renarin OR more than one spren of the type that bonded with Renarin and Ym was sent to Roshar.

 

I don't think that

 

Progression: The Surge of Growth and Healing, or Regrowth

actually has anything to do with seeing the future. I think that it is about growing plants and regrowing skin and flesh from wounds. It kinda says in the ars arcanum what all of the stuff do, and whilst some, like Division, Cohesion and Tension, are a little open to interpretation, and will presumably be further explained later, others, like Progression, Gravitation and Transformation, aren't really. The ars arcanum says exactly what it does.

[DiamondMind]

Uhh okay so I think Ym and Renarin are of the same order, and that when Ym died, the spren that was beginning to bond/had bonded with him had/wanted to find someone else in Roshar to bond with and chose Renarin OR more than one spren of the type that bonded with Renarin and Ym was sent to Roshar.

 

I don't think that

actually has anything to do with seeing the future. I think that it is about growing plants and regrowing skin and flesh from wounds. It kinda says in the ars arcanum what all of the stuff do, and whilst some, like Division, Cohesion and Tension, are a little open to interpretation, and will presumably be further explained later, others, like Progression, Gravitation and Transformation, aren't really. The ars arcanum says exactly what it does.

 

We know that Renarin is a Truthwatcher, which has Surges of Progression and Illumination, and that he can see the future. We also know that Shallan has visions in her drawings, presumably of the past. So sthe theory is that Renarin's predictions are the combination of his two surges.

[Wileygirl13]

Do we have confirmation that each surge works the same for both Orders which share them? I know that Elsecallers and Lightweavers both share the transformation surge, but it seems to me that Shallan's ability to Soulcast is different in what and how she can. Maybe that is related to the little practice Shallan has had, but it could also be that the magic works differently.

I think you touched on something here. It seems to me that the shared surge between two orders is affected differently for each order.

Renarin and Shallan share illumination, but how they use it and its effects seem different.

Renarin "sees". I think his access to progression affects his illumination ability. Perhaps the illusions he can create are true, only for a specific target. Something strange happened during the duel, when his opponent ran off the field. I think Renarin used illumination to show him a future truth that freaked him out.

Shallan "transforms". Her illuminations have the ability to transform others as if the view she creates of a person changes them - transforms them. Also, her illuminations are seen by everyone.

[PorridgeBrick]

More likely that every order has an unrelated ability in addition to their surges. Windrunners have ridiculous battle senses, Truthwatchers can predict the future, Lightweavers have extreme Memorization abilities, Bondsmiths have some ability related to other's spren bonds, Skybreakers can see someone's sins, etc.

Edited March 16, 2014 by PorridgeBrick

[Moogle]

Uhh okay so I think Ym and Renarin are of the same order, and that when Ym died, the spren that was beginning to bond/had bonded with him had/wanted to find someone else in Roshar to bond with and chose Renarin OR more than one spren of the type that bonded with Renarin and Ym was sent to Roshar.

 

Ym's spren was female, Renarin's is male, so they can't be the same type of spren. (Unless that theory on flexible-gender spren is true, I guess.)

[Zionite]

Bondsmiths have the surges Adhesion and cohesion.So what powers do you think the Bondsmiths have judging by this?Im really fascinated by this as the Bondsmiths are apparently the most powerful of the radiants

[Moogle]

Bondsmiths have the surges Adhesion and cohesion.So what powers do you think the Bondsmiths have judging by this?Im really fascinated by this as the Bondsmiths are apparently the most powerful of the radiants

 

You're thinking of Stonewards. Bondsmiths have Adhesion and Tension.

 

Tension lets you make things floppy/stiff. So a piece of paper becomes harder than steel, for example, or an enemy Voidbringer's sharp claws suddenly hit like wet noodles. This will let Dalinar have effective weapons/armor even if he doesn't have Shards.

 

Adhesion lets you stick stuff together.

 

Frankly, I don't think the Bondsmiths were all that powerful. Though, Ishar did say he was capable and willing to kill every single Surgebinder... that could be because of his Herald-abilities though.

[DiamondMind]

Frankly, I don't think the Bondsmiths were all that powerful. Though, Ishar did say he was capable and willing to kill every single Surgebinder... that could be because of his Herald-abilities though.

 

i think that the Bondsmiths' power would come from the interaction between their two surges. Note the epigraph stating that only the bondmiths could end the voidbringers in a specific manner.

[Moogle]

i think that the Bondsmiths' power would come from the interaction between their two surges. Note the epigraph stating that only the bondmiths could end the voidbringers in a specific manner.

 

I suspect this has more to do with their Order's special ability, rather than creative use of Surges. Shallan's got mnemonics, Bondsmiths get flashes of divine inspiration when considering strategy. Something like that.

 

So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address.

[Jeiel]

With pressure (adhesion) and tension surges, at first I imagined bondsmiths could turn charcoal into diamond. They'll be able to make stormlight storage easy among other cool stuff. But then, that's just a physical manifestation of their power.

 

What about cognitive and spiritual? The same way Shallan *might* have transformed a ragtag band of deserters into protectors, I imagine Bondsmiths *might* be able to unite and reforge a group of people.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Jeiel

[KasA97]

I believe highspren are responsible for the Skybreakers.

[Tempus]

Possibility - people do not get special abilities related to their order, like mnemonics. Instead, they are chosen for that order because they have those abilities, the ability likely aligning with their orders two essences, and the nahel bond potentially enhances it.

[Dalenthas]

To further Jeiel's theory, take a look at Kaladin, he's able to draw a group of people to him, then bind them together into a single unit. Spiritual Gravity and Adhesion, anyone? Shallan illuminated what the deserters could be, transforming them into protectors.

Based on this theory, Dalinar should be just as good at Kaladin at making men working for him work together, but not as good as Kaladin at drawing people to his cause. This seems to make a lot of sense given the first two books.

I'm still not convinced we've got Tension figured out correctly...

[Moogle]

To further Jeiel's theory, take a look at Kaladin, he's able to draw a group of people to him, then bind them together into a single unit. Spiritual Gravity and Adhesion, anyone?

 

So you'd argue that Skybreakers are very good at drawing a group of people to them (Spiritual Gravity), and so someone like Szeth is bound to be supernaturally charismatic?

 

How about Transportation? What's "Spiritual Transportation" under this theory? What does Jasnah do?

Edited April 1, 2014 by Moogle

[clip]

Concerning cohesion and tension; could these axial interconnects be a reference to strong and weak force interaction? Science!

[Islington]

I think Transformation is the surge of like...cognitive impression. You impress your cognitive impression on the object, and yours over writes it. 

[hoser]

Science as inspiration for storytelling?

Concerning cohesion and tension; could these axial interconnects be a reference to strong and weak force interaction? Science!

from the Seattle Steelheart signing:

Q:  Is [the Division surge] a reframing of, at one point in time you were talking about weak/strong forces?
A:  Um, weak/strong forces, yes, that's the one that sent me there partially.  Like, I'm not actually... the idea of the fundamental forces is a cool thing to me so it's not like I'm actually trying to use the weak and strong forces, the idea of there being fundamental forces.  I wanted to go off on it in a fancy way.  Like this one right here I told them was surface tension.  But it's not really surface tension.  It's more like um, the people with this could take a piece of cloth and snap it out and it would become hard as if the cloth became steel.  I'm trying to explain this scientifically, but it doesn't work scientifically.  Imagine as if they could restructure the atoms so that they became a latticework like a crystal rather than being soft like...cloth.  I'm calling it surface tension, but it's not really surface tension.
Q:  Tensile strength?
A:  It's kind of like tensile strength.  I have to go through Peter and say "Alright Peter, come up with what we should really call this." He does the hard science a lot better than I do.  I do the armchair theories and then he goes, "Ok, now this is the math if someone were to actually fall off of this and 0.7 gravity and the weight of the bridge...".

[Sishal]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it so far (sorry in case I'm repeating it^^). 

I always assumed that Shallans vision and Renarins seeing of the (possible) future came through their, or rather their sprens, bond to Cultivation. 

That assumption was based on one of Dalinars visions where Honor mentioned that Cultivation is better than him in seeing the future. 

I assumed that it's possible that the more influence Cultivation has on their spren, the greater can her influence on the Radiants (that bind this spren) be.

So what I want to say by this is, that I never thought that the future sight came from the surges but from Cultivation. If that makes sense?