Knights Radiant Orders and Surge Combination Theories

[Rickster]

Is it confirmed that windrunners have Adhesion?  Kaladin (and Lopen) were able to heal themselves beyond what I'd normally assume most Radiants can do?

[Moogle]

Is it confirmed that windrunners have Adhesion?  Kaladin (and Lopen) were able to heal themselves beyond what I'd normally assume most Radiants can do?

 

Kaladin was sticking people to walls. So uhm... pretty much Adhesion, yeah. I think we've also got a Word of Brandon on it.

 

Oh, and welcome to the forums!

[lummi]

Will the Bridgman now all be able to infuse stormlight and if so will they be able to use the surges?

WOR spoilers

[Rickster]

I assumed sticking people to walls could be considered gravity

[Awesomeness Summoned]

I assumed sticking people to walls could be considered gravity

There is a pretty long discussion on that HERE

 

In short, yes gravity could account for all of them BUT the Ars Arcanum states a full lashing is based on adhesion and there is WoB that is correct.

[marianmi]

I'm curios why the OP places Ym in #5.

 

I think both Ym and Lift are #4, Edgedancers. It's interesting their spren is so different though.

Ym's chapter has 2xVedeledev, and Lift has Vedeledev and Nalan(Darkness).

[Swimmingly]

I'm curios why the OP places Ym in #5.

I think both Ym and Lift are #4, Edgedancers. It's interesting their spren is so different though.

Ym's chapter has 2xVedeledev, and Lift has Vedeledev and Nalan(Darkness).

Lift has Friction and Growth

Ym has Growth and Illumination

[Awesomeness Summoned]

I'm curios why the OP places Ym in #5.

 

I think both Ym and Lift are #4, Edgedancers. It's interesting their spren is so different though.

Ym's chapter has 2xVedeledev, and Lift has Vedeledev and Nalan(Darkness).

What swimmingly said but also, the fact that his spren is so different implies he is in the other regrowth order. Brandon has yet to show us two surgebinders from the same order (Szeth doesn't count because of how he gets his abilities).

[Moogle]

It's interesting their spren is so different though.

 

That's why I think they're different. Two different types of spren, and Ym's spren seems very oriented towards being of Illumination (it's sparkly motes in the air as I recall). Order 5 for Ym all away.

 

Also, the chapter icons don't matter much. Kaladin had Vedel for basically 90% of TWoK. Ym was just learned/giving when he helped out the urchins and told them of the One.

[DiamondMind]

From surelix on reddit, here is the newest chart by for the most popular interpretation of the orders:

 

 

[marianmi]

Lift has Friction and Growth

Ym has Growth and Illumination

 

Where do we see Illumination?

I agree with this, and the chart above, just that having Vev on both chapters is confusing...

 

 

Also, given that "Renarin sees a spren that nobody else does" tidbit from Brandon means that Truthwatchers are actually #8 ? (since we have seen #5's spren)....

 

Also, both Ym and Renarin have glasses; first thing Renarin did was to heal his sight, whereas Ym was still using spectacles... more confusing stuff

[Edgedancer]

Where do we see Illumination?

I agree with this, and the chart above, just that having Vev on both chapters is confusing...

 

 

Also, given that "Renarin sees a spren that nobody else does" tidbit from Brandon means that Truthwatchers are actually #8 ? (since we have seen #5's spren)....

 

Also, both Ym and Renarin have glasses; first thing Renarin did was to heal his sight, whereas Ym was still using spectacles... more confusing stuff

Hs Spren tells him to do something with the Surge before he gets killed, so we do not actually see him use it.

Also what you point out about Renarins Spren is another reason why I kinda doubt Truthwatchers to be #5, though it wouldn´t suprise me either.

[RIT]

I think the power differences come more from the "More than the sum of their parts" concept. Yes both Jasnah and Shallan can Soulcast, And Shallan can also make standard illusions. But what makes Shallan truly a Lightweaver is her ability to use those illusions to transform people. From what she does to the deserters, to what she does to Sedarial. She wraps herself into an illusion that shapes how people view her and themselves.

I agree with Truthwatchers being 5 because while in the end Renarin might be able to use illusions and progression separately what makes him a Truthwatcher is the ability to use them both to see what comes next.

[Argent]

I think the power differences come more from the "More than the sum of their parts" concept. Yes both Jasnah and Shallan can Soulcast, And Shallan can also make standard illusions. But what makes Shallan truly a Lightweaver is her ability to use those illusions to transform people. From what she does to the deserters, to what she does to Sedarial. She wraps herself into an illusion that shapes how people view her and themselves.

 

I don't think I'll be able to agree with this until I see another set of Orders do the same thing - namely, have an Order that can do something the two next to it combined can't.

[RIT]

I don't think I'll be able to agree with this until I see another set of Orders do the same thing - namely, have an Order that can do something the two next to it combined can't.

Understandable. Though a case could be made for Renarins visions. If we view them as the combination of Illumination and Progression then this power would not be shared by the Lightweavers. And the Edgedancers were described as in the Lift interlude by their speed and grace(Progression and Abrasion), and Lift herself showed no aspects of perceiving the future.

Nothing concrete yet but food for thought.

[Awesomeness Summoned]

I don't think I'll be able to agree with this until I see another set of Orders do the same thing - namely, have an Order that can do something the two next to it combined can't.

It has been suggested that Jasnah's ability to soulcast at a distance, like when she kills the three robbers, has to do with the combination of transformation and transportation that is unique to her order. People who use soulcasters usually have to touch the thing they are changing. We'll have to wait until Shallan has a bit more experience, though, before we can determine if it's related to transportation or something any radiant soulcaster can do.

[Seerow]

Just going to chime in to say that combining two shared powers to get one unique power is a VERY Brandon thing to do. If it turns out to not be the case I'll be shocked.

[TomR]

1) The obvious: What the heck are Division, Cohesion, and Tension surges? These are, of course, the surges we have not seen(/been aware of having seen) so far.

 

Tension appears to be an ability to manipulate an object's pliability:

 

3. I pulled out the chart of orders and surges.  Apparently someone had also gotten most of what he was willing to reveal, but he said that the surge between orders 2 and 3 is Division, loosely based on weak/strong forces.   He took pity on me, and said that there is an order called Bondsmiths and a surge based on the idea of surface tension.  With the surface tension surge, you could snap a towel and make it stiff, for example.

 

(Note that Brandon later said that Surface Tension might not be the best name. It looks like he decided to go with plain old Tension instead)

 

Many people have speculated on Cohesion having a forcefield effect since RL cohesion is making like molecules stick together a la surface tension, keeping together air molecules or water or maybe strengthening (or weakening) existing stone. With a name like Cohesion, the Surge may have let Stonewards run on water or walk through walls. OTOH Division obviously breaks things apart somehow, which is why the Dustbringers were (unfairly?) feared. I'm betting there was actual turning stone to dust in there.

 

Understandable. Though a case could be made for Renarins visions. If we view them as the combination of Illumination and Progression then this power would not be shared by the Lightweavers. And the Edgedancers were described as in the Lift interlude by their speed and grace(Progression and Abrasion), and Lift herself showed no aspects of perceiving the future.

 

Shallan has visions, too, so Illumination is playing a part:

 

She paused, noticing what she’d drawn: a rocky shore near the ocean, with distinctive cliffs rising behind. The perspective was distant; on the rocky shore, several shadowy figures helped one another out of the water. She swore one of them was Yalb...

 

A sketch of a woman kneeling over a body, raising a hammer and chisel, as if to slam it down into the person’s face. The one beneath her was stiff, wooden  .  .  . maybe even stone?

 

Those may be the present and the past, while Renarin also having the Progression Surge would let him extrapolate how things grow in the future, similar to Taravangian's educated guesses in the Diagram. 

Edited March 8, 2014 by TomR

[Quazar87]

I like it.  Renarin can see (Illumination) what things will change (Progression).  Jasnah can Soulcast (Transformation) at a distance (Transporation).  Also, Shallan can make her illusions tangible.  That made be simply a measure of her growing as a Radiant by speaking Truth, but it could also combine her Illumination with Transformation.  With Division and Abrasion, I'm sure the Dustbringers can walk right through walls like they came with Radiant shaped holes.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Quazar87

[CorwinofAmber]

Just going to chime in to say that combining two shared powers to get one unique power is a VERY Brandon thing to do. If it turns out to not be the case I'll be shocked.

I thought it had been confirmed that this is the case? Coppermind says the two surges give three powers (two would be shared with either neighbor while the third, presumably some sort of combination of the surges, would give a unique third power). Windrunners, have gravity and adhesion which gives them the basic lashing and full lashing respectively, and the ars arcanum tentatively lists the reverse lashing as being a combination of adhesion and gravitation.

[Trickonometry]

DiamondMind deserves credit for pointing it out first, but we pretty much know 100% sure what they are because the Glyph code has been figured out. Bondsmiths are Tension/Adhesion, Truthwatchers are Progression/Illumination, and Willshapers are Teleportation/Cohesion.

[Green Fire]

At first, from just the released chapters and an early reading from Brandon, I assumed Ym was Palah's order, to differentiate him from Lift as a Edgedancer.  But going back and reading how Ym's spren is described... "It moved across the surface of the workbench, slinking closer.  When it stopped, light crept upwards from it, like small plants growing or climbing from their burrows.  When it moved again, those withdrew."  I now feel that both Ym and Lift have the same type of spren, and are both Edgedancers.  I don't think that two adjacent orders would have plant-like spren.  I think Wendle's Ring has sent other representatives.   Also, Vev being the herald on their chapters' title cards link them. 

 

Palah's order is now known to be the Truthwatchers, as evidenced by her appearance on the title card heading Chapter 89 "The Four", which incidentally is the only chapter in the Archives with four heralds in the title card. One for each order the current Knights Radiant headed up by Dalinar.      

[Moogle]

But going back and reading how Ym's spren is described... "It moved across the surface of the workbench, slinking closer.  When it stopped, light crept upwards from it, like small plants growing or climbing from their burrows.  When it moved again, those withdrew."  I now feel that both Ym and Lift have the same type of spren, and are both Edgedancers.

 

This is nothing like how Wyndle is described.

 

 

As the boys finally stopped arguing and started climbing, a thin, twisting trail of vines grew out of the darkness and approached Lift. It looked like a little stream of spilled water picking its way across the floor. Here and there, bits of clear crystal peeked out of the vines, like sections of quartz in otherwise dark stone. Those weren’t sharp, but smooth like polished glass, and didn’t glow with Stormlight. The vines grew super-fast, curling about one another in a tangle that formed a face.

 

It sounds to me like both Order 4 and 5 have more Cultivation-y spren is all.

[cris34b]

Perhaps people should attempt to make a list of possible combinations? Speculate what special ability all KR orders will get?

 

I'll start.

 

Adhesion+Gravitation? I suppose this is a reverse lashing? Full lashing? not very fun combo.

I like to think this will let Windrunners fly into space, make a bubble of air. Or maybe make a vacuum in front of them, pressure behind, and increase their speed exponentially with no air resistance and huge buildup.

 

Gravitation+Division? Hmm, interesting, considering we haven't seen Division.

These seem like opposite powers. Draw things together, break them apart. Perhaps you can make things implode?

 

Division+Abrasion? Dustbringers... Destruction+Decay+Friction... How will this work?

Lets just say the combination is extraordinarily messy. Perhaps they remove all friction between bonds of something? Make them fall apart into nothingness? Or use friction to light things on fire and then destroy too?

 

Abrasion+Progression? Not fair.

This seems like super healing. Hold something together, then heal it? Like, how? i don't even know. I don't even know.

 

Progression+Illumination?

See the future. Voidbinding. Run. Scared.

 

Illumination+Transformation? 

Transform your illusions into reality? Make anything?

 

Transformation+Transportation?

Ranged soulcasting? Is this fair?

 

Transportation+Cohesion? I see two distinct possibilities for combining those.

1: shape things from a distance.

2:The most terrifying possibility, teleport up to someone with your arm inside of them, aka shape their body to fit your arm, and rip out their heart. Full on FTL style.

 

Cohesion+Tension? Aw yeah.

Shape things with Cohesion, then use Tension to make them solid steel. Or just walk through everything like it wasn't there... No fair.

 

Tension+Adhesion?
Pressure+Tension? Is this even a fair combination? What will this do? Will this be like, the surgebinder duct tape?

Edited March 9, 2014 by cris34b

[Trickonometry]

So far, from what we've seen, the surges do NOT combine to create "super surges," though we HAVE seen cool synergies - and I think that's an important distinction. Windrunners have had their abilities explored the most of any, and we have yet to see a "fourth lashing" that truly combines the gravitational lashings (basic and reverse) and the adhesive lashing (full).

We can certainly imagine some cool combos, like creating a reverse lashing to attract swords to a shield, fully lash several enemies' swords to your shield, and then lash the shield to the sky/ceiling, effectively disarming your opponents in a way that doesn't allow them to just pick their weapon back up. For instance.

Now, as for solid illusions and distance Soulcasting, we simply don't know enough about either Lightweaving OR Soulcasting to determine what is "standard." I still hold the belief that light and sound waves are NOT the only waves that could be controlled by Illumination. If brain waves could be effected, for instance, the brain could conceivably be tricked into believing an illusion has substance - and being able to do some sort of charm/mind manipulation is definitely not out of character of Lightweavers. This isn't to say that my claim has more legitimacy over anyone else's; the point simply remains that we don't know what we don't know. Soulcasting with a fabrial definitely requires touch, but I can't see why Shallan would always have to be touching an item in the material plane to have a debate with it in Shadesmar about why it should change.

And, as a final note, I am totally open to surges behaving differently when combined with a different surge. It's only that, so far, the evidence had not been nearly conclusive enough for me to believe that it will.